When OK is not OK

[NYCgrrl]

Amazing amount of contortionists on this thread.
So many that I wonder why it took Cirque du Soleil so long to open their new DS show; guess they were looking in the wrong places.

 

[okeydokey]

I am always amazed at the lengths people here will go to to prove there is no racism. I just have to laugh.

 

[Jennasis]

I have a picture of my infant nephew making a clear gang sign with his hands. Pretty sure he didn't know what he was doing.

The okay sign is acceptable when you do it to mean "OKAY". The only acceptable way to present an "okay" sign is right side up, palm facing out.

It is not acceptable when it is used (upside down, right side up, palm in/out or otherwise) as a symbol of hate.

INTENT, people. INTENT.

 

[Wendy31]

Are you joking? THE TODDLER is not making that sign intentionally and probally has little control over its hands. There is a difference, I DONT think I need to point out the child you are referring to MORE THAN LIKELY has no idea where they even are not to mention making a hand symbol on command.

How do you know the younger child was not making the sign intentionally?

Have the parents said anything about the younger child?

Do you think the toddler is making the OK sign? He's not.

To me, it looks exactly like the younger child is making an "okay" sign... whether intentionally or not, I don't know.

But, when I look at the photo, it looks like Gru & the younger child are making the same sign & that the characters were playing a game w/ the children.

Honestly, had I seen the photo w/o any commentary & before the ADL posted their latest regarding the symbol, that's exactly what I would have thought - that the characters were playing a game w/ the children.

My daughter hates the minions w/ a passion of a fiery sun, so we haven't watched any of the movies. But I've heard that playing games like this would fit the character of Gru. I don't know, though?

Edited to add - Gru's catchphrase is "okay"? Does the character typically make the sign in photos?

I think, as a society, we need to be careful, & we need to be kind & respectful to each other. But, just from this picture alone, it's hard for me to automatically assume the person inside the Gru character costume is racist. Maybe he is. Maybe he's not. Maybe he decided to flash a white power sign behind a child, but maybe he didn't. Simply from the photo, I don't know.

(Also, as an aside, I don't like the connotation that I'm racist or trying to make excuses for a racist simply because I'm not immediately jumping on board w/ labeling the person inside the Gru character costume a racist.)

 

[luvsJack]

I am always amazed at the lengths people here will go to to prove there is no racism. I just have to laugh.

No one, anywhere in this thread has said there is no racism. The lengths some people will go to "prove" that anyone that doesn't agree with them is racist is just as laughable.

Not wanting to give power to these hate groups and the ridiculousness of taking an innocent hand signal and making it something hateful has not ONE thing to do with denying racism. Of course there is racism. Much, much worse in some places in the world than in others. Of course it exists. And there will always be hate groups popping up but we need to STOP giving them so much power.

 

[sam_gordon]

I am always amazed at the lengths people here will go to to prove there is no racism. I just have to laugh.

Can you please quote someone who hinted, much less stated there is no racism? I totally believe there is racism. I think the incident from the original post could be racial. I just have a problem with saying "well, this hate group is using the OK symbol, so since you know that, you shouldn't use it again."

 

[dominiondad]

I have a picture of my infant nephew making a clear gang sign with his hands. Pretty sure he didn't know what he was doing.

The okay sign is acceptable when you do it to mean "OKAY". The only acceptable way to present an "okay" sign is right side up, palm facing out.

It is not acceptable when it is used (upside down, right side up, palm in/out or otherwise) as a symbol of hate.

INTENT, people. INTENT.

The problem is when you try to interpret somebody else's intent.

 

[Jennasis]

The problem is when you try to interpret somebody else's intent.

People here were asking when is it acceptable (if ever) for them to use it. If your intent is to answer "okay, I'm Okay, you're okay, we're okay, they're okay, or yes" to someone, you are good to go. If your intent is be profane, hateful, defamatory, derogatory, inflammatory, then it is not.

Guessing at other people's intent? Gets tricky. Sometimes it's obvious, and sometimes not. As Number 5 once famously said "Need more input!"

 

[robinb]

How do you know the younger child was not making the sign intentionally?

Have the parents said anything about the younger child?



To me, it looks exactly like the younger child is making an "okay" sign... whether intentionally or not, I don't know.

But, when I look at the photo, it looks like Gru & the younger child are making the same sign & that the characters were playing a game w/ the children.

Honestly, had I seen the photo w/o any commentary & before the ADL posted their latest regarding the symbol, that's exactly what I would have thought - that the characters were playing a game w/ the children.

My daughter hates the minions w/ a passion of a fiery sun, so we haven't watched any of the movies. But I've heard that playing games like this would fit the character of Gru. I don't know, though?

Edited to add - Gru's catchphrase is "okay"? Does the character typically make the sign in photos?

I think, as a society, we need to be careful, & we need to be kind & respectful to each other. But, just from this picture alone, it's hard for me to automatically assume the person inside the Gru character costume is racist. Maybe he is. Maybe he's not. Maybe he decided to flash a white power sign behind a child, but maybe he didn't. Simply from the photo, I don't know.

(Also, as an aside, I don't like the connotation that I'm racist or trying to make excuses for a racist simply because I'm not immediately jumping on board w/ labeling the person inside the Gru character costume a racist.)

Please watch the video. Gru is not playing the circle game with the children. And the toddler has his pointer finger extended, so it's more of a point than the OK sign. In any case, the toddler is a red herring even if he's copying Gru's OK sign.

 

[b2k1121]

Wait? You are the only one that gets to post pictures? Funny how that works. As long as they "prove" your point, fine. Let someone post one that shows something different and suddenly "that's a Fox News response". Typical.

Because any rational person knows Obama was in the middle of a speech, talking with his hands like a lot of politicians do and in the middle of sentence briefly formed that pose with his fingers while making a point. He wasn't posing for a picture and decided to make that gesture for the camera, but you knew that right? That's why it's a Fox News response, intentionally muddying the waters in bad faith.

 

[siren0119]

I watched the video. And as someone else mentioned intent matters.

What I saw was a TM getting in position to have the photo taken, resting their hand on the child's shoulder quite normally.

Then, VERY deliberately, changed their hand position - and then adjusting it forward.

I imagine Universal did their homework before dismissing the TM, and while I cannot comment on what the TM intended the hand gesture to mean, I can say without question that they gestured, and POSITIONED that gesture very deliberately. What Universal found that made firing the TM the right course of action is between them and the TM....but I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to fill in some of the questions of intent before going to that length.

 

[sk!mom]

I wonder how many people on this thread defending this symbol are white?

Racism continues because we refuse to call it out when we see it or we defend it as some are doing here.

 

[Kitty 34]

Please watch the video. Gru is not playing the circle game with the children. And the toddler has his pointer finger extended, so it's more of a point than the OK sign. In any case, the toddler is a red herring even if he's copying Gru's OK sign.

I wasn't able to watch the OP's video but this one I could. Yes, so intentional and on a child.....Wow. Unforgivable.....my opinion. So sad that an employee feels he/she has to do that in a family video.

 

[luvsJack]

Because any rational person knows Obama was in the middle of a speech, talking with his hands like a lot of politicians do and in the middle of sentence briefly formed that pose with his fingers while making a point. He wasn't posing for a picture and decided to make that gesture for the camera, but you knew that right? That's why it's a Fox News response, intentionally muddying the waters in bad faith.

I did not ask you what Obama was doing. Any of us could literally find thousands of pictures on the internet of people posing making that gesture and would you have a similar answer for all those pictures? Yes, you would. Because you have to defend your stance that anyone that thinks its silly to turn an innocent hand signal into something hateful and to give the idiots that want to make this "a thing" the power to do so, is racist and wrong. When that isn't reality.

IF the TM intended this signal in a hateful way, Universal was right to fire him. But again, do we even know his race? If you do not, then you are assuming that you do by one picture and assuming that you know what he did what he did. Isn't that one of the things everyone wants to end? Assuming things about someone from what can be seen?

 

[sk!mom]

Apparently no one I work with or our students are aware because they do it in answer to questions all the time. So yeah, it can be.

Really??? Don't you work at a college? I have not seen anyone use that symbol in real life since...practically ever. I'm the parent of young adults and the aunt to high school and college kids. I do not think their generation uses it as a symbol for OK. It's not nearly cool enough. I know that it exists as an emoji but rarely see it used then either. I find it very surprising that your coworkers and students use it "all the time."

This use of it is news to me as of this thread but you better believe that I will continue to not use it. Now not just because it's outdated as an OK but also because it's become racist.

Know better do better.

 

[Kennywood]

I tell you what, I gave up on Star Trek a long time ago! I was completely offended by Spock continually flashing the gang sign for "The Logicals" gang!


Oh, and that secret "Live long and prosper" gang slang was what really did it for me!

 

[luvsJack]

I wonder how many people on this thread defending this symbol are white?

Racism continues because we refuse to call it out when we see it or we defend it as some are doing here.

Wow. That's a bit racist in itself, don't you think? If someone doesn't agree with an opinion, they must be white and the must be racist?

Everything cannot be about race! We are creating more of a divide with this ridiculous mess that keeps being pushed. No one is defending the TM because no one knows his intention. If he is racist and that is what his intention was, then he needed to be fired. So, good for Universal.

Not thinking that we need to continue to give all the power to the hate groups is NOT being racist. Or accepting it or refusing to call anything out. Its simply not wanting hate to keep gaining the power that it continues to gain with each of these ridiculous news stories.

 

[luvsJack]

Really??? Don't you work at a college? I have not seen anyone use that symbol in real life since...practically ever. I'm the parent of young adults and the aunt to high school and college kids. I do not think their generation uses it as a symbol for OK. It's not nearly cool enough. I know that it exists as an emoji but rarely see it used then either. I find it very surprising that your coworkers and students use it "all the time."

This use of it is news to me as of this thread but you better believe that I will continue to not use it. Now not just because it's outdated as an OK but also because it's become racist.

Know better do better.

Well, that may not be your experience, it is mine.

Busy hallway, busy offices, lots of people talking, just a way of letting someone know you heard them without needing to be heard yourself.

 

[sk!mom]

Wow. That's a bit racist in itself, don't you think? If someone doesn't agree with an opinion, they must be white and the must be racist?

Everything cannot be about race! We are creating more of a divide with this ridiculous mess that keeps being pushed. No one is defending the TM because no one knows his intention. If he is racist and that is what his intention was, then he needed to be fired. So, good for Universal.

Not thinking that we need to continue to give all the power to the hate groups is NOT being racist. Or accepting it or refusing to call anything out. Its simply not wanting hate to keep gaining the power that it continues to gain with each of these ridiculous news stories.

Everything isn’t about race but this thread is so...

As far as my comment, IMO part of the problem is people who don’t share an experience who deny the experience exists. As in, someone who is white saying that something isn’t racist.

 

[b2k1121]

I did not ask you what Obama was doing. Any of us could literally find thousands of pictures on the internet of people posing making that gesture and would you have a similar answer for all those pictures? Yes, you would. Because you have to defend your stance that anyone that thinks its silly to turn an innocent hand signal into something hateful and to give the idiots that want to make this "a thing" the power to do so, is racist and wrong. When that isn't reality.

IF the TM intended this signal in a hateful way, Universal was right to fire him. But again, do we even know his race? If you do not, then you are assuming that you do by one picture and assuming that you know what he did what he did. Isn't that one of the things everyone wants to end? Assuming things about someone from what can be seen?

Then what was the point of that Obama photo other than to draw some sort of false equivalence to this incident?

I don't think anyone in this thread has even called this person a racist or assumed race. I'm pretty sure the only assumption is that they made the gesture on purpose which is a pretty safe bet, and we assume Universal did their due diligence (looked at past photos they were in, talked to them, etc) in determining the consequences. Disboards posters didn't fire this person, Universal did. An angry mob of random people from the internet didn't bring this to Universal's attention, the family in the photo did. The family was offended by it, isn't that enough? Is it too much to ask to be more angry at the hateful people that decided to adopt this symbol for their cause than the people saying 'Hey, some people are using this as a hate symbol now, might not want to pose with it'?

I can't imagine spending so much time and energy to defend this sort of thing, is the A-Ok sign that important in your life? Keep using it all you want, maybe just don't pose for a photo with it.