When Is It Enough? (Retirement Funds)

[disneysteve]

we can easily live on under $2000 a month and still travel.

Not debating at all, but just offering an alternate reality. Let's assume that we still live in our current home when we retire which is a distinct possibility and let's figure things based on current dollars. Our current property taxes are $6,000/year and it is not a big home or a McMansion. Just a 42 year old 3-bedroom colonial. The first 3 months of your $2,000/month retirement income would go to property taxes. Our auto insurance is about $2,500/year (though probably goes down a tad for seniors), so let's take your 4th month of income for that. A week in WDW currently runs us about $2,000 which I don't consider extravagant, so that would take the 5th month. Throw in 3 other trips during the year in that price range and we've now spent the 6th, 7th and 8th months income. Gas and electric for the year would take the 9th month. So without even paying medical insurance, gas and maintenance for the cars, food, clothing, gifts, entertainment or anything else, we'd be left with only $6,000 to live on for the whole year. It just doesn't work here. Certainly, we could move to a much cheaper area and save on the taxes and insurance, and we may well do that. But if we wanted to stay in our home and near our friends and family, there's just no way we could do it on $2,000/month.

Again, I'm truly not trying to argue the point, but I just wanted to run the numbers to see how far that $2,000/month would get us and unfortunately, it wouldn't get us too far, and that's using today's costs which obviously will be considerably higher when we retire.

 

[dvcgirl]

I've made no secret that we have a pension (and we took a large cut in pay to retire early). I've also said that my husband did better as a financial person than my employer (Stateof NY) was doing and we removed my money when I left my job, and he invested it..so we do have decent savings. That said, we can easily live on under $2000 a month and still travel. Our savings are there if we need it, and someday we'll have to draw some of it (just because of age)...but some of us really do make it in our 50's on a lot less than what Kiplinger's thinks we can do. We just don't have a lot of bills. I find it interesting that my parents only had social security (and waitresses and taxi driver's didn't get a lot of social security). While we helped towards the end with some extra's, they never felt deprived. My parents were happy with whatever they had..and brought up 4 children who all did well..with no help for college, or a headstart on a house, or inheritance.
People here aren't saying they aren't saving at all. And I'm not saying that they shouldn't start until the kids are gone (and I don't know why you keep making it sound like I am saying that). I am saying though, that while they may not have the amount you plan on having, once the kids are gone, they can save a lot more. I'd be interested in seeing just what people's answers are to the OP's original topic, rather than continually just saying..don't wait. Everyone knows it would be best to save what they can NOW. But some just don't feel like in this time of their lives, they can. So rather than be doom and gloom, perhaps they can look past right now and orthodontist bills, and college and see that while they may not save a million, as someone else said, they also may not be eating cat food.
I'm interested in what others think will be enough for them..not so I can tell them it won't be..but to just see how others feel. If we can get anyone new to post and share.

I didn't say that you were making a secret of your pension....I was really asking because I thought that you mentioned it in the past. That greatly changes the equation. My parents also did not start saving anything extra until we were off to college. However, they really didn't have to worry too much because my father had a very solid pension.

Perhaps you think that you make it on a lot less than Kiplinger's says you need...but that depends...on what your pension is. A $40,000 a year pension is worth one million dollars. So you be making it on more than you think from that perspective....

You did just say this...

"I am so sorry about your parents. I can see by what people post, just how much our past lives have a part of how we decide to treat retirement. I know sometimes I sound like a broken record when I comment on how much more money we had when the kids left (ya gotta have them to know how expensive they are..back when my 3 kids got braces, that wasn't covered at all by inurance..and that was about $12,000 alone..and of course I've mentioned the other normal things..private school, college, weddings, etc!). For some, that may have to be when retirement savings start."

And so by the statement "I sound like a broken record when I comment on how much more money we had when the kids left.........For some, that may be when retirement savings start."

I read that to mean that you are saying that some can't start saving until the kids move out. My only point is that for those without a pension, starting when the kids leave puts them in a position to play some major catch-up.

 

[DMRick]

Again, I'm truly not trying to argue the point, but I just wanted to run the numbers to see how far that $2,000/month would get us and unfortunately, it wouldn't get us too far, and that's using today's costs which obviously will be considerably higher when we retire.

I wouldn't expect you too. I could not live on C.Ann's $12,000 a year. People have to look how THEY live and want to live. (PS our taxes, because of STAR and no children living in the house went down recently..and will go down even more once we hit 65 (or maybe it's 62)..they are now less than half yours). Our car insurance for two fairly new vehicles and an RV is under $1100 (yeah aarp!). We spend about $50 a week on food and eat out once a week at reasonable places. A week for us in Disney is much less than you pay, and so we are able to get several trips a year..but I'm talking about living on $2000 a month with a normal amount of vacations..we happen to have had many this year, and some of that is because of our eBay sales.
$2,000 a month wouldn't work for you. And of course in 30 years $2000 a month wouldn't work for us assuming prices go up.

 

[DMRick]

How did this"For some, that may be when retirement savings start." Become this?

I read that to mean that you are saying that some can't start saving until the kids move out. My only point is that for those without a pension, starting when the kids leave puts them in a position to play some major catch-up.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. You've been following my posts for months, so you should know I advocate savings. You just don't seem to get it that a lot, if not most people don't have money to save on retirement at this time..but will once the kids are on their own. It's not all about retirement. It's also (as much as you cringe when I say it) about live for now. No remarks about how you feel many shouldn't be making the Disney trips because they don't have retirement savings. Disney isn't the only way to live for now. Putting a child through college, dealing with elderly parents, having a spouse or child ill, perhaps a wedding coming up, or a spouse about to go overseas..there are lots of reasons why people can't start saving for retirement now. My thought was to give them hope, that once the kids leave, it's not to late to work on that. But you have a real big problem with that. You just can't fathom that some things are more important than the dollar at retirement. Maybe some of these people will have to sit home and not travel because of decisions made now..but maybe they have no problem with that. If my husband were to die tomorrow..the porch will look pretty good to me.
I'm not going to tell you what my pension is. However I've said I can live on $2000 a month at this time. With that said, it doesn't matter in this equation how much my pension is..if I'm not using it.
You do know that there are a lot of people on this board that don't earn $40,000 a year, let alone hope to see that as a pension don't you? I think that may be the biggest block for you..you don't seem to really know what the "normal" income of a lot of people here is.

 

[dvcgirl]

Absolutely. Can't argue with that at all. The general assumption, though, is that people will want to maintain a reasonably similar lifestyle post-retirement to what they had pre-retirement. If pre-retirement, you dined out occasionally, maybe went to a show now and then, traveled a few times a year, etc., you likely don't want to suddenly switch to sitting on a rocking chair on the porch every day for the rest of your life. If you want to, great. You won't need nearly as much money. I just don't think that's the average person's plan for retirement. Neither way is right or wrong. The point is just to try and prepare for the retirement you would like to have. If it is a very simple retirement, your needs will be relatively small. If it is a more elaborate retirement, then your needs will be considerably larger.

This is a very good point. You really do need to know sort of how you'd like to live in retirement. There's lots of talk about how little people can get by on in retirement, but part of retirement planning is taking an honest look at your life. I'm really and truly not trying to be "doom and gloom" on this topic, because obviously there are lots of things one can do to make up the difference if they are behind. You can work a little longer, work part time, downsize your house....all sorts of things.

I was reading a newletter that goes out to financial planners and the topic was "how to deliver the bad news" to a client. Some prefer to deliver it straight-up. One CFP writes a number on a piece of paper that will equal the client's yearly income unless they start saving more. He found that to be more effective. Another preferred to deliver the news "with a spoonful of sugar", finding his clients took it better that way. Better to look at your situation is one way or another in my opinion.....and the sooner the better. Knowledge and time equals power in personal finance.

 

[disneysteve]

A week for us in Disney is much less than you pay

Totally OT, but since this is a Disney board, can you share a little about this? Everytime I post a trip report and say that our week cost us about 2K, I'm bombarded with posts and PMs asking how we manage to spend so little, even here on the Budget Board. How much do you guys spend for a week and how do you keep it "much less" than 2K? We drive down, stay offsite ($37/nite with SkyAuction), eat breakfast in our room, eat some meals offsite, eat mostly counter service onsite, share meals, etc. I'm honestly not sure how much more we could realistically cut out.

 

[C.Ann]

There's lots of talk about how little people can get by on in retirement, but part of retirement planning is taking an honest look at your life..

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I haven't seen anyone here talking about "how little they can get by on " but rather the type of retirement they have chosen .. Big difference.. I specifically told you what I would be living on - and that is without drawing on the money I have set aside.. So that makes it my choice - not simply "getting by".. If I choose to do something different, I have money available to do so - but this is the lifestyle that I want..

Is it really all that difficult for you to understand that not everyone wants the same things out of retirement?

Again - this is why these "average Amercian family" figures are such a joke.. Up until I told you, you didn't have a clue what I would like to do in retirement, did you? Well - neither does the magazine article writer - or the financial planner - or anyone else.. People need to make their plans according to what THEY want - not what the imaginary "average American family" wants..

 

[dvcgirl]

How did this"For some, that may be when retirement savings start." Become this?


No, that's not what I'm saying at all. You've been following my posts for months, so you should know I advocate savings. You just don't seem to get it that a lot, if not most people don't have money to save on retirement at this time..but will once the kids are on their own. It's not all about retirement. It's also (as much as you cringe when I say it) about live for now. No remarks about how you feel many shouldn't be making the Disney trips because they don't have retirement savings. Disney isn't the only way to live for now. Putting a child through college, dealing with elderly parents, having a spouse or child ill, perhaps a wedding coming up, or a spouse about to go overseas..there are lots of reasons why people can't start saving for retirement now. My thought was to give them hope, that once the kids leave, it's not to late to work on that. But you have a real big problem with that. You just can't fathom that some things are more important than the dollar at retirement. Maybe some of these people will have to sit home and not travel because of decisions made now..but maybe they have no problem with that. If my husband were to die tomorrow..the porch will look pretty good to me.
I'm not going to tell you what my pension is. However I've said I can live on $2000 a month at this time. With that said, it doesn't matter in this equation how much my pension is..if I'm not using it.
You do know that there are a lot of people on this board that don't earn $40,000 a year, let alone hope to see that as a pension don't you? I think that may be the biggest block for you..you don't seem to really know what the "normal" income of a lot of people here is.

I'm completely familiar with "normal". My father worked for UPS as a driver for 30+ years...and my mother was a legal secretary. I could not have had a more "normal" upbringing. I absolutely understand the concept of living for now. I think balance is incredibly important. I do think though, that our balance as a nation is out of whack. I think that people are spending money (even if it's only 6-8% of their income) on "wants" instead of needs...and that they're not really understanding the impact that will have on their lives down the road. We can talk about braces, and college til the cows come home, but nobody can deny that we as a nation spend a whole heck of a lot more *stuff* than we've ever had before.

Yes, I do understand that there are people here who make less than 40K a year, although from polls that we've done here before the median income around here (of this board at least) is above the median income. That makes sense when you think about it. Disney World is an expensive little hobby to have by most people's standards, no matter how cheaply some around here are able to get there.

I think it's wonderful to give people hope, but when such hope is coming from people who have a pension, well I think it's important to point that out. Like you, my parents and in-laws didn't have to sweat it as much as many of us have to sweat it out today. They could scrape together what they could for braces, college and weddings knowing all along that everything *would* work out for them...and that they'd get around 30% of their combined income from SS and 75% of my father's income. They could start late by saving extra in their 40s because they were only making up for a portion of my Mom's salary by then.

Another poster on a different recent thread talked about getting started late.....and then later in the thread he revealed that his wife is a teacher in Illinois and will get 75% of her last year's salary in retirement. Well that changes the entire picture obviously.

I agree, some people probably don't want to travel...that's fine. They probably don't travel much now in their pre-retirement years. But travel is obviously a huge topic around here...this is Disney board afterall, and much of that talk on many of the boards is about going to Disney...as much as they possibly can in some cases. I would think most people around here plan on at least a trip or so a year. Like Steve said in an earlier post, you have to take an honest look at your life now and how you're living it. Most people don't want to just drop all of those fun things that they are doing now because all of the sudden they hit 65. Unfortunately, in a tight retirement budget, or any budget for that matter, those fun things are the first items cut.

 

[dvcgirl]

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I haven't seen anyone here talking about "how little they can get by on " but rather the type of retirement they have chosen .. Big difference.. I specifically told you what I would be living on - and that is without drawing on the money I have set aside.. So that makes it my choice - not simply "getting by".. If I choose to do something different, I have money available to do so - but this is the lifestyle that I want..

Is it really all that difficult for you to understand that not everyone wants the same things out of retirement?

Again - this is why these "average Amercian family" figures are such a joke.. Up until I told you, you didn't have a clue what I would like to do in retirement, did you? Well - neither does the magazine article writer - or the financial planner - or anyone else.. People need to make their plans according to what THEY want - not what the imaginary "average American family" wants..

Well, no surprise, I disagree with you . I think you are really an exception living on 12K a year. I know that you are happy, and that's wonderful, but you are the exception and not the rule. And I think that "the average American family" snapshot offered by CFPs is probably pretty close to the mark. There was an article on CNN.com about that study that we've been discussing. They reported that polls of retirees show that 55% of retirees are living on 95% of their pre-retirement income....

"High expectations...Nevertheless, 59 percent of all workers say they'd like to enjoy a standard of living in retirement that is the same or better than the standard of living they have in their working years.

But half the respondents think they can manage that on 70 percent or less of their pre-retirement income.

That doesn't square with financial experts' recommendation that you should plan to live on at least 70 percent of your pre-retirement income. Nor does it square with the 55 percent of present-day retirees surveyed who said they live on 95 percent or more of their pre-retirement income."

For the zillionth time, it's not difficult for me to get that not everyone wants the same thing out of retirement....but as a nation, our spending is positively out of control. 56% of people over age 55 have less than 50K in savings. I can't even begin to wrap my mind around that figure. And so if all of those people haven't been spending too much...then where is the money going? And what makes anyone think that they are going to all of the sudden want to stop living the way that they are living now? Yes, we all talk about downsizing houses and such, but most of us want to keep on doing the fun things that we're doing now. And many of us would like to do a little more.

 

[DMRick]

There have been several posts about this over the years, but we do watch for specials. Let me start with our AP's. We went 6 times in the past year although not all those trips were paid out of our usual monthly allowance, as I stated earlier. I'll do the usual trip. Once in a awhile we stay at POR, or treat part of our family..but I'll give what we paid the last time. So divide our AP by 6
AP $133 for two for one trip (and we have lots of extra park hoppers from years past if we decide to not renew our AP).
$10 for a total of $60 for our DDE card.
$380 for our room (using AP rate)
$230 round trip for two (southwest..and sometimes we have no air costs such as out Sept trip, because we earned some free tickets..we have four to use this year, because of SW specials..extra rewards earned by d/ling ding for instance..that one will be free food as well.)
$107 for National rental..yup for 8 days (since we go home late)..our May car is only $96 at Alamo and that's a SUV. We don't have to have a car but we prefer it, to visit friends (who often feed us at least once during the week!). Gas is minimal, since we seldom go far.

We either eat hot cereal in the morning from home or get the childrens meal (neither of us usually gets a big breakfast since we will be doing a lot of walking) which is under $7 with the DDE card.
$49 at the most breakfast.

We usually eat a late lunch..and we often share the lunch special at France for under $20.00 with an extra soup with our DDE card, or a double hamburger at Beaches and Cream, or we eat at China's take out. Dinner is either again a counter service, or one or two meals a week at a sit down. We might go to DTD and visit the Earl for a sandwich, which is often eaten in the rockers in MK on the Island. The Trailsends is a favorite and when restaurants.com have the 60% off we've often eaten at the Grosvenor (about $20 for a buffet for two). We did much better when we could get the coupons..and of course we'll do really good in September..even paying the higher fee for the room...since we don't have to pay any airfair or food (and we will never use all that food..so we hope to treat our friends for a meal with our points).

Totally OT, but since this is a Disney board, can you share a little about this? Everytime I post a trip report and say that our week cost us about 2K,.

 

[dvcgirl]

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I haven't seen anyone here talking about "how little they can get by on " but rather the type of retirement they have chosen .. Big difference.. I

Also, you can't possibly think that every person who retires has "chosen" the retirement that they end up with. Many end up having to curtail plans, work longer or work part-time for a variety of reasons. Do you have any idea how many people think that they are doing just fine by saving whatever is left over....and then meet with a CFP at 55 and find out that they'll take a major pay cut if they retire? CFPs deliver that kind of news all of the time. And quite often the clients are positively shocked...they have no idea what just hit them.

It's really true, what Oprah said on her Debt Diet show about many people just living unconsciously when it comes to spending. Many just aren't thinking about the consequences of their behavior and what it will mean for them down the road. I think that some of us, many here in fact, can see this sort of thing coming down the road for some of our friends and family members. But people are adaptable, and so they'll do what they have to do to get by. But I'm under no illusions that every person who may have to be working at 70 for income....is at that job because they want to be. Some will be there because they *have* to be there.

 

[C.Ann]

Well, no surprise, I disagree with you . I think you are really an exception living on 12K a year. I know that you are happy, and that's wonderful, but you are the exception and not the rule..

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So what about the retirees that live on $20,000 a year? Or $25,000? Or $30,000? They all exist - are they "all" exceptions to the rule - or only exceptions to the rule in financial articles that are geared towards people who need and want to retire on a six-figure budget?

 

[DMRick]

Yes, I do understand that there are people here who make less than 40K a year, although from polls that we've done here before the median income around here (of this board at least) is above the median income. That makes sense when you think about it. Disney World is an expensive little hobby to have by most people's standards, no matter how cheaply some around here are able to get there.

You actually think that a poll on this board gives you an accurate view of what people on this board earn? I didn't post what I make on it..so who knows who did, or even if they posted what they really make.
Look at how many have read this thread. You have no idea how many who have read would like to post the truth about what they hope to have. But instead we have a pm/email underground going on..because they don't want to be made to feel bad. One person actually took out her trip to Disney coming on on one of these threads, just so you woudn't throw it in her face, when she mentioned how little she has saved.
I wonder, if you realize if you don't stop worrying about the nation and the retirement of it, you may end up fretting yourself to death and not even get to enjoy your retirement.
You have zero idea of what my pension is and even less idea of my savings. I served the poor last night..I know what trouble they are in..but just because people don't have what YOU think they should have, or haven't started to save what YOU think they should, doesn't mean they'll end up in our soup kitchen. A lot of polls can be skewed depending on what the person wants to gain..so don't put all your thoughts into just polls. I still know people who hide their money under the mattress.
It would be nice if people could just feel comfortable posting here what the OP asked..what do THEY need to feel it's enough without being told about the 10 polls that say they won't make it with that amount. Geesh!

 

[DMRick]

But I'm under no illusions that every person who may have to be working at 70 for income....is at that job because they want to be. Some will be there because they *have* to be there.

And that is just the worse thing in the world. People have done that for years. Not much has changed there...except all the financial planners have come out of the closet and said no..it's not fair, you shouldn't have to work. Come to me before you get there, and I'll have you saving tons of money while you are young, so you can travel when you are old.

 

[dvcgirl]

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So what about the retirees that live on $20,000 a year? Or $25,000? Or $30,000? They all exist - are they "all" exceptions to the rule - or only exceptions to the rule in financial articles that are geared towards people who need and want to retire on a six-figure budget?

I'm not saying that at all. Please try not to twist my words if at all possible. You have said that you live quite well on 12K a year. All that I have said is that you are the exception to the rule in that regard, because not many people would be satisfied or even be able to live on 12K a year. And $20,000 is a *big* jump from the 12K you are living on....a 70% pay raise. But someone making 20K a year...likely doesn't have a pension or much in savings and is living on SS alone. That's not easy to do either.

As for financial articles being geared towards people, well, it depends on the source of the article I suppose. I doubt many people living solely on SS are reading Forbes, Kiplinger or even Money magazine. The articles in those magazines primarily target people who have money to invest and spend on splurge items. I would think retirees living on 20K a year are looking for ideas to stretch their dollar because their investing and splurging days are pretty much over.

 

[arminnie]

I don't think most people think about how drastically credit has changed over the years. Back in the 50's and 60's and even into the 70's and early 80's, you actually had to qualify for a credit card. .....

As the industry was deregulated, the lending rules got much more lax and we're now at a point where virtually everyone can get credit.

In 1989 when I went to work for Visa International, total employment worldwide was less than 500 people. And you are right - credit cards were hard to get. I can't tell you the number of times someone like a store clerk asked me if I knew how they could get a Visa card.

If you didn't have good credit and an income you just didn't get a Visa/MC or AmEx. People were still getting limited credit as many stores had their own cards and places like furniture stores let you buy "on time."

I worked for a credit bureau 1963-67 while in high school and college. That was a real eye opener. I literally had access to every salary in town. It was all on paper back then so no electronic restrictions on what you looked at. And I admit it - I looked.

I often worked at night giving out credit reports and learned how important it was to have good credit. I heard people being turned down on the spot because of a single blemish on their file. All of this was by phone back in the dark ages. This was pretty much for small mom and pop stores and local department stores.

Lots of very low income people were always trying to open accounts to buy things that they didn't have money for. That urge to spend more than we have had always been there - it's just easier to make it happen today.

The ability for people to get credit cards with bad credit can be tied to two institutions in particular - Capitol One and Providian. They both decided to offer credit to people with bad credit and charge outrageous fees. Yes - they had way more bad debt than other banks, but they made a lot of money doing this.

In the industry they were known as "bottom feeders." Fifteen years ago if I saw someone pull out a Capitol One credit card I automatically assumed that they had pretty bad credit. Pretty soon the other banks realized that they too could make money from this segment of the population.

Providian had some financial difficulties and has been bought out by Washington Mutual - a very respectable financial institution. Capitol One is now a major player in the credit industry, and no longer just issues cards to the bottom rung. A lot of people with perfect credit are now Capitol One Customers.

In 1989 the average use for a Visa card was 2 times per month. Reward cards drastically changed usage. Plus grocery stores started accepting them in the early 90s.

Many, many people just cannot handle credit cards for various reasons. I guess it's like some people can't handle food or alcohol. I wish I knew the solution. I mean I know the solution is not to spend more than you make, but how do you convince people not to live only for the present without regard to long-term consequences.

 

[travelbug]

This thread has had a lot of hits..I'm interested in what those of you reading and not posting think about the original question. When is it enough for you? Hopefully people can feel that they can post it, and we won't tear it apart.

I'm one who has followed this thread from the beginning because I'm avidly interested in anything about personal finance and LOVE to read books and articles about it. I'm not insecure about what I would post if I joined in, but I usually prefer to stay out of the intensity that often surfaces. It's much more entertaining sitting on the sidelines, learning from those who post, and watching the back and forth "tennis match."

OK, y'all go ahead and I'll keep reading.

 

[dvcgirl]

And that is just the worse thing in the world. People have done that for years. Not much has changed there...except all the financial planners have come out of the closet and said no..it's not fair, you shouldn't have to work. Come to me before you get there, and I'll have you saving tons of money while you are young, so you can travel when you are old.

Yes, it's the great Certified Financial Planner conspiracy. How do you explain that our national savings rate has been going down for years...to the point where we've spent more than we make as a nation? Another polling fluke? People are traveling a whole lot now, and spending on lots and lots of other things that they can't afford. I really hope this percentage of our population really enjoys their work as much as you believe they do.....because they'll be there longer than they figured.

And the thing is, you don't have to save a ton of money....if you start early enough. People are intimidated by the big numbers, but start at 25, and save 2 grand a year and when you retire you have one million dollars. At 35 that number jumps to 6K a year (still reachable for many), 45 years old ...jumps to 17K a year. And at age 55, you need to save 67K a year to get to that million mark. I'll bet you that a lot of 45-65 year olds who figure that out too late would find that 2K a year if they could turn back to the clock to age 25.

 

[dvcgirl]

You actually think that a poll on this board gives you an accurate view of what people on this board earn? I didn't post what I make on it..so who knows who did, or even if they posted what they really make.
Look at how many have read this thread. You have no idea how many who have read would like to post the truth about what they hope to have. But instead we have a pm/email underground going on..because they don't want to be made to feel bad. One person actually took out her trip to Disney coming on on one of these threads, just so you woudn't throw it in her face, when she mentioned how little she has saved.
I wonder, if you realize if you don't stop worrying about the nation and the retirement of it, you may end up fretting yourself to death and not even get to enjoy your retirement.
You have zero idea of what my pension is and even less idea of my savings. I served the poor last night..I know what trouble they are in..but just because people don't have what YOU think they should have, or haven't started to save what YOU think they should, doesn't mean they'll end up in our soup kitchen. A lot of polls can be skewed depending on what the person wants to gain..so don't put all your thoughts into just polls. I still know people who hide their money under the mattress.
It would be nice if people could just feel comfortable posting here what the OP asked..what do THEY need to feel it's enough without being told about the 10 polls that say they won't make it with that amount. Geesh!

A PM retirement underground....cool. I am concerned for the future of this nation...but I'm not worried about us personally. Really, we'll be just fine. I have a nice balance in my life....travel, all of that good stuff and will retire early. Personal finance is just a topic that interests me. And in case you haven't noticed....I could talk about it a whole lot. It is however, far from the only interest I have in my life. It's just the only topic that I really find interesting on this board.

I never ever once said a number, or told anyone what they would need for retirement....ever I have thrown out the percentages that we all read....we all have, but you can pick on me, that's cool. And when those percentages come out...you and others dispute them, and that's cool too. It's totally dependent on ones income, and how they envision they'd like to live out their retirement years. I will say that many are positively unprepared...there's no doubt about it.

I know that you and C.Ann sort of present the "Retirees on the Street" view here, and you are both obviously very down to earth, live beneath your means....all of that good stuff. And you and your DH have pensions, and C Ann is living on SS alone in a situation where she has incredibly cheap seasonal housing and spends some time with family. I'm coming at this from a completely different angle. I'm younger, have no pension, will likely see some sort of cut in my SS benefits by the time I get there and want to remain independent for as long as I possibly can. Based on the fact that defined pension plans are currently at 40% and expected to go down to 20% over the next 20 years....that there are probably more people in my boat around here than there are in yours.

 

[DMRick]

Thanks..first hand is always very interesting reading. I can't remember the solution being any different in my lifetime. Today it's credit cards..in the "olden days" it was "Household Finance". I think everyone on our block had one of those payment books..remember them? Or am I dating myself? That was yesterday's credit card. Many people in the poor neighborhood I grew up in overspent thanks to them. We also had the door to door salesman. You picked out of a book and he came back every week and collected your payment (that's how we got our towels (which ended up costing way more than they started out to be, thanks to the interest, which acrued weekly!), and cushions for our kitchen table). That was the 50's and again way back then we had instant gratification. Sometimes you picked out of several books, and hoped you could make the payment each week. Those who couldn't didn't answer their door that week..and the interest was still added on. There was interest of course. Even back then people paid interest. Go way back and the corner store kept track..back when people wanted things but didn't have the money until payday to pay for them. Didn't matter..you got to buy what ever you want and it went in a pad..you tried to pay each week, but when you couldn't, you just kept adding to the tab, because you no longer had enough cash to go to the big grocery store..so you kept buying from the small one and added on to the tab. From the expensive corner store.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

On another note...
I'm interested..what will be "enough" for you?

Many, many people just cannot handle credit cards for various reasons. I guess it's like some people can't handle food or alcohol. I wish I knew the solution. I mean I know the solution is not to spend more than you make, but how do you convince people not to live only for the present without regard to long-term consequences.