What's 'wrong' with Catholicism (dare we try to discuss without debate?)

[CheshireVal]

Didn't you just get married??? If your fiance is Catholic--then no problem...if neither of you are Catholic...why a catholic church?

You should not have been turned away specifically if one person isn't Catholic. This is post-Vatican II afterall.

Yeah, we got married in March. My fiance was raised Catholic (though doesn't attend Mass anymore). We never really *seriously* considered it, but I read somewhere that most Catholic priests would not marry a "mixed faith" couple unless one converted first.

It wasn't something I pursued, anyway!

 

[Deb & Bill]

I've seen the billboards out there with messages from God that state things to the effect "What part of 'thou shalt not kill' didn't you understand?"

Kind of like "What part of 'Til death do you part' didn't you understand?"

Born and raised a Roman Catholic. Still a practicing Roman Catholic.

 

[sodaseller]

The Catholics don't believe that Mary was a virgin for ever, although they do refer to her that way I guess, they believe that Jesus was "born of the virgin Mary" meaning she was a virgin when she was blessed with Jesus. Yes, the Catholics do place a higher "value" on Mary then other Christian churches but heck, she was Jesus' mom, she was chosen to do that for a reason don't you think?

Though it is a hard teaching to accept, I believe offical doctrine is that Mary was conceived without sin (the actual Immaculate Conception) and remains "ever Virgin" "stainless" - Council of Constantinople

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

My very devout and pious SIL is really enduring a crisis of faith right now. Her beloved daughter is marrying a nonCatholic and the Bishop will not permit a wedding Mass, even with the groom going through preCana, agreeing to raise children in the Church and to be open to conversion, and of course not taking Communion himself. The Bishop claims some new direction from Rome to strictly adhere to this guideline, of which I was not aware, and I follow such things pretty closely. While we cannot retain identity and be too compromising, this strikes me as very wrong. It really pains my niece to imagine marrying without a full Mass.

Say WHAT?????? You have got to be kidding me! That is such a pre-Vatican II move! Are they going to annul the present marriages of Catholics and nons???

That is crazy! Do you have a resource for this? Is it possible the Bishop is misinterpeting? Can they go to another diocese (as crazy as that seems.)

 

[bananiem]

My very devout and pious SIL is really enduring a crisis of faith right now. Her beloved daughter is marrying a nonCatholic and the Bishop will not permit a wedding Mass, even with the groom going through preCana, agreeing to raise children in the Church and to be open to conversion, and of course not taking Communion himself. The Bishop claims some new direction from Rome to strictly adhere to this guideline, of which I was not aware, and I follow such things pretty closely. While we cannot retain identity and be too compromising, this strikes me as very wrong. It really pains my niece to imagine marrying without a full Mass.

Sorry, I haven't heard that one before.

 

[golfgal]

Does it vary from church to church maybe? I know I read somewhere recently of a church denying that Mary and Joseph could have had other children (Jesus' half brothers I guess) because she supposedly remained a virgin....

I am sure that there are some Catholics that believe that but that is not the teaching of the church. Also, you could get married in the Catholic church without being Catholic pretty much everywhere. Perhaps you ran into an ultra-conservative priest or something but if your DH is Catholic and is a member of that church, they should have allowed you to get married there. They will ask that you agree to raise your children Catholic but that doesn't mean you can't some day change your mind about that too.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Aha--found something (from a Catholic site--didn't go hunting into official church doctrine--opted for cliff's notes version)

The Church tolerates mixed marriages on three conditions:

1. Both parties must promise that their children shall be brought up as Catholics;
2. The Catholic must promise to endeavour to bring the non-Catholic to the knowledge of the truth;
3. The non-Catholic must promise to allow the Catholic liberty for the free exercise of his or her religion. Without these three conditions the Church will not sanction a mixed marriage.


Though I don't know exactly what the second one means--but if the spouse will be a roadblock to raising children Catholic or allowing the Catholic spouse/family to attend mass, I can see why they would say no. However--if the future spouse is willing to abide...why on earth would the bishop say no..that is just rediculous!

ETA: this item was dated 1921...very pre-vatican II. I will see if I can find something more current. This websites claim of unlawfullness of mixed marriages in the Catholic church all pre-date vatican II. BRB.

From 1971...looks like that 2nd requirement was removed....here is the STATEMENT ON THE
IMPLEMENTATION
of the Apostolic Letter
on Mixed Marriages
NATIONAL CONFERENCE
OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS


Effective January 1, 1971

Excerpt: Declarations:
II. DECLARATION AND PROMISE
(M.P., number 7)
5. The declaration and promise by the Catholic, necessary for dispensation from the impediment to a mixed marriage (either mixed religion or disparity of worship), shall be made, in the following words or their substantial equivalent:

"I reaffirm my faith in Jesus Christ and, with God's help, intend to continue living that faith in the Catholic Church."

"I promise to do all in my power to share the faith I have received with our children by having them baptized and reared as Catholics."

6. The declaration and promise are made in the presence of a priest or deacon either orally or in writing as the Catholic prefers.

7. The form of the declaration and promise is not altered in the case of the marriage of a Catholic with another baptized Christian, but the priest should draw the attention of the Catholic to the communion of spiritual benefits in such a Christian marriage. The promise and declaration should be made in the light of the "certain, though imperfect, communion" of the non-Catholic with the Catholic Church because of the belief in Christ and baptism (cf. Decree on Ecumenism, number 3).

8. At an opportune time before marriage, and preferably as part of the usual pre-marital instructions, the non-Catholic must be informed of the promises and of the responsibility of the Catholic. No precise manner or occasion of informing the non-Catholic is prescribed. It may be done by the priest, deacon or the Catholic party. No formal statement of the non-Catholic is required. But the mutual understanding of this question beforehand should prevent possible disharmony that might otherwise arise during married life.

9. The priest who submits the request for dispensation from the impediment to a mixed marriage shall certify that the declaration and promise have been made by the Catholic and that the non- Catholic has been informed of this requirement. This is done in the following or similar words:

"The required promise and declaration have been made by the Catholic in my presence. The non-Catholic has been informed of this requirement so that it is certain that he (she) is aware of the promise and obligation on the part of the Catholic."

The promise of the Catholic must be sincerely made, and is to be presumed to be sincerely made. If, however, the priest has reason to doubt the sincerity of the promise made by the Catholic, he may not recommend the request for the dispensation and should submit the matter to the local Ordinary.

(emphasis is mine)

Complete statement at this link:
http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/marriage/nccb.htm

I'd be interested to see what was released recently--b/c unless official (not just "talk")...sounds like the bishops/priests are overstepping the boundaries.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Yeah, we got married in March. My fiance was raised Catholic (though doesn't attend Mass anymore). We never really *seriously* considered it, but I read somewhere that most Catholic priests would not marry a "mixed faith" couple unless one converted first.

It wasn't something I pursued, anyway!

Why do people who don't practice the faith want to be married in the Church? I guess you didn't specifically want to be married in the Catholic Church, but I just wonder why people want this.

 

[dennis99ss]

It seems to me that all of the complaints that people make about the catholic church is because they do not like the teachings. The teachings get in the way of their personal lives. As a result of the difficulty that people have with the teachings of the church, they decide to attack the church, because they don't like the teachings. Or, they simply say the church is wrong, because that infringes on my personal freedom to make choices in my life. Why attack then, this could be because they wish they could be back in good graces with the church, but do not want to take those personal steps necessary to do so, or, because they do not want to answer the question of whether the catholic church is the church, etc.

All of the questions raised above stem from, it seems, a personal desire to live life in a way that is against the church. Do I sin, yes. Am I sorry about it, yes, mostly. Do I follow all of the church's teachings, no. Will I have to answer for that, yes. Just because I confess, doesn't mean my sins are forgiven. In order for "confession to work", I need to have a change of heart. For those who want to change birth control, divorce, etc., you seek to change the doctrines of the church, so you can have an easier life, and possibly, be more at ease with your decisions. .

 

[golfgal]

I totally agree with this.

We are practicising Episcopalians. Our children attend Catholic school. When they have Mass in school, our kids have to cross their arms and get a "blessing" from the priest.

Our DD asked us just last night if we believe that only Catholics go to heaven. I said no, and told her that I believe that anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior will go to heaven. I told her that I personally feel that the Catholic Church, while it has done a lot of good things, puts too many "rules" on people.

So you are saying the Catholics won't make it into heaven because they don't accept Jesus? Sorry, don't buy that. That is a pretty broad statement first of all and why would the "rules" the Catholic church (what ever those are I am not sure) make a difference in someone getting into heaven or not? I guess I am just confused by this considering that the Catholic Church was started by the apostles of Jesus.

 

[sodaseller]

Say WHAT?????? You have got to be kidding me! That is such a pre-Vatican II move! Are they going to annul the present marriages of Catholics and nons???

That is crazy! Do you have a resource for this? Is it possible the Bishop is misinterpeting? Can they go to another diocese (as crazy as that seems.)

I agree with you - it is your Bishop, I believe (are you not in the Diocese of Orlando, or are you in Palm Beach?). I am certain my Bishop would not prohibit the ceremony. I am conveying third hand, mind you, but it was told to my wife (my SIL apparently fears a petition to Rome if we all get involved, with resulting loss of her status as a Vice Principal in a Catholic school), that this is an old instruction, but that all Bishops have been told to enforce it with zeal now. I have scratched my head as to what the basis might be.

 

[WIcruizer]

I went to private, Christian schools from K-12 (non-Catholic.) We were taught why our religion was the only true religion, and other Christian faiths- especially Catholism was wrong. I don't remember ever being told Catholics wouldn't go to heaven, but I recall teachers dancing around that question.

Later in life, I came to my own conclusions. I find it hard to believe that any one Christian religion is exactly right, and all others are wrong. That's non-sensical to me. In fact, my DW is Catholic. I mention all that so I can say the following before being flamed.

I think it is sickening what the Catholic Church has done over the years with pedofiles. There is a long, documented history that the unofficial policy was to move these pedofiles to different parrishes, hoping that would satisfy parishiners at the priest's former parrish, and the new parrish would have no idea of his past.

Once more and more people started to come forward, they would cover up, then deny, then try to pay the person off. It was the M.O. all over the country. In any other walk of life, wouldn't that person be fired and authorities notified?

To this day I don't think the Catholic Church has been very forthcoming or apologetic about what happened in the past, and hasn't made me feel comfortable anything has substantially changed.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Say WHAT?????? You have got to be kidding me! That is such a pre-Vatican II move! Are they going to annul the present marriages of Catholics and nons???

That is crazy! Do you have a resource for this? Is it possible the Bishop is misinterpeting? Can they go to another diocese (as crazy as that seems.)

I've always learned that the couple can get married in the Catholic Church, just that they can't have a full Mass.

A friend of mine from HS went through this -- she married a non-Catholic and their wedding (in her parish's church) simply ended after the marriage vows, with no Communion.

 

[Planogirl]

It almost sounds like the current Pope is moving backwards with his beliefs.

My husband is a non-practicing Catholic but if we'd chosen to be married in his old Catholic Church, I would have had to make the same promises as those Lisa Loved Pooh listed above. I wasn't willing and DH didn't care.

By the way, this church believed that Mary remained a virgin and had no other children besides Jesus.

 

[beattyfamily]

I am sure that there are some Catholics that believe that but that is not the teaching of the church.

Yes, it is the teaching of the Church. The Perpetual virginity of Mary, is a doctrine of faith of Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and also of Islam, stating that Mary, the mother of Jesus, remained an actual virgin, implying both "virginal disposition" and "physical integrity", before, during, and after the birth of Jesus, and thus is titled ever-Virgin. This included the conception and birth of Jesus, and the remainder of the life of Mary. God is believed to have arranged miracles in relation to the conception and birth, while Mary's own holiness and dedication to her role as the mother of God are the basis for her having remained a virgin throughout her life.

 

[sodaseller]

Aha--found something (from a Catholic site--didn't go hunting into official church doctrine--opted for cliff's notes version)

The Church tolerates mixed marriages on three conditions:

1. Both parties must promise that their children shall be brought up as Catholics;
2. The Catholic must promise to endeavour to bring the non-Catholic to the knowledge of the truth;
3. The non-Catholic must promise to allow the Catholic liberty for the free exercise of his or her religion. Without these three conditions the Church will not sanction a mixed marriage.


Though I don't know exactly what the second one means--but if the spouse will be a roadblock to raising children Catholic or allowing the Catholic spouse/family to attend mass, I can see why they would say no. However--if the future spouse is willing to abide...why on earth would the bishop say no..that is just rediculous!

ETA: this item was dated 1921...very pre-vatican II. I will see if I can find something more current. This websites claim of unlawfullness of mixed marriages in the Catholic church all pre-date vatican II. BRB.

That was always my understanding - hence the checklist I provided. I know of no basis for the Bishop's action. They may yet have the wedding over here in our Diocese, but it pains my SIL and BIL, with roots over there, which is where my neice grew up. My BIl is threatening to return to the Greek Church

 

[CheshireVal]

Why do people who don't practice the faith want to be married in the Church? I guess you didn't specifically want to be married in the Catholic Church, but I just wonder why people want this.

Well, it wasn't something I particularly *wanted* to do. We had just started our wedding planning, though, and DHs family is Catholic, so it was a passing thought of, "oh, this might be kind of nice." (I think DHs mom might have mentioned it, too). I do think most Catholic churches are beautiful and classic-- I wouldn't have really minded it for a wedding, but I wasn't going to commit to raising my children Catholic or converting myself....

Again, I really have respect for the Catholic church and its traditions/history. I just don't think it's for me.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I agree with you - it is your Bishop, I believe (are you not in the Diocese of Orlando, or are you in Palm Beach?). I am certain my Bishop would not prohibit the ceremony. I am conveying third hand, mind you, but it was told to my wife (my SIL apparently fears a petition to Rome if we all get involved, with resulting loss of her status as a Vice Principal in a Catholic school), that this is an old instruction, but that all Bishops have been told to enforce it with zeal now. I have scratched my head as to what the basis might be.

I am going to inquire about this. That is nuts. I know they've added some new "stuff" to mass...but this seems seriously flawed.

Did her fiance not agree to the two stipulations (promise to raise kids and not interfere with her faith)?

 

[bananiem]

I've always learned that the couple can get married in the Catholic Church, just that they can't have a full Mass.

A friend of mine from HS went through this -- she married a non-Catholic and their wedding (in her parish's church) simply ended after the marriage vows, with no Communion.

My dh was not Catholic at the time of our wedding and had no thoughts of converting at the time and we had a full mass with communion.

 

[sodaseller]

I am going to inquire about this. That is nuts. I know they've added some new "stuff" to mass...but this seems seriously flawed.

Did her fiance not agree to the two stipulations (promise to raise kids and not interfere with her faith)?

He has, as well as to remain open to conversion on his part