What's with the Jesus skywriting?

http://www.jewishealing.com/healing_really_works.html

The University of New Mexico in Albuquerque is studying the power of prayer to heal alcoholics. And there is a prayer-and-healing study in progress at Bastyr University in Seattle, Washington, the nation's leading naturopathic-training institute. In the most widely publicized studies of the effect of intercessory prayer, cardiologist Randolph Byrd studied 393 patients admitted to the coronary-care unit at San Francisco General Hospital. Some were prayed for by home-prayer groups, others were not. All the men and women got medical care. In this randomized, double blind study, neither the doctors nor nurses nor the patients knew who would be the object of prayer. The results were dramatic and surprised many scientists. The men and women whose medical care was supplemented with prayer needed fewer drugs and spent less time on ventilators. They also fared better overall than their counterparts who received medical care but nothing more.

"Prayer works," says Dr. Dale Matthews, associate professor of medicine at Georgetown University School of Medicine in Washington, D.C., and senior research fellow at the National Institute for Healthcare Research in Rockville, Maryland. Dr. Matthews has reviewed more than 200 studies linking religious commitment and health, cited in his book, 'The Faith Factor'. He cites studies suggesting that people, who pray are less likely to get sick, are more likely to recover from surgery and illness and are better able to cope with their illnesses than people who don't pray. Some evidence indicates that sick people who are prayed for also fare significantly better than those who aren't. In fact, some physicians report that people who are prayed for often do better even if they don't know they're being prayed for.
 
Gawrsh... I had forgotten about this thread! A couple of things:

1) I DID see the skywriter on my trip to WDW last month! I wasn't even thinking about it, then on the last day we were playing in the pool at the CBR when DD9 notices letters in the sky. I didn't see the plane; all I could see was "SU". I told DD what it was about. It was like a celebrity spotting :goodvibes

2) On prayer... It can be a "dangerous" thing to pray for someone to be healed. Sometimes healing comes in death. Cancer and other diseases are not the will of God. Our life here on earth is a beautiful treasure, but it is not all there is. Sometimes death is victory; sometimes death is a positive answer to prayer.
 
carrie s said:
Sorry, gotta do better than that. That guy started the test with the result already decided. He used subjective rather than objective measurements Even he wrote:
"Neither multivariate nor univariate analysis showed a statistically significant overall improvement after intervention in the 10 outcome variables for the group receiving . . . distant intercessory prayer (n = 19) when compared with the group receiving no . . . distant prayer (n = 21)." And the placebo effect was in evidence."

There's no question of the power of the mind over one's own body. Positive outlooks and hopefulness can do wonderful things to help healing, and the opposite is true. If you think prayer will help you and you think others are praying for it, it can help. But there are no miracles and the mind can only do so much.

The point is, you simply cannot pretend that you "praying" will affect anybody else. You can "pray" all day long for the skywriter to convert everyone who isn't like you to be like you, or you can pray for him to realize how silly he's being. Neither one will make any difference.

Of course, religion's been around long enough to have a full complement of cop-outs. If someone's sick and gets healthy, then prayer worked. If someone's sick and dies, then it was God's will. Yet funnily enough, proper medical science CAN and DOES make a difference. If prayer worked, then why do we keep having stories of these nuts who refuse to go to doctors but just sit at home and pray for their child end up with a dead kid?

Prayer doesn't work, science does. In the case of skywriting, you'd have to talk to the guy directly if you want to have any influence.

If you think otherwise, James Randi has a million dollars ready and waiting to give you if you can prove it. Oh, that's right, no proof is required! And no evidence against will sway the true believers.
 

Groucho said:
There's no question of the power of the mind over one's own body. Positive outlooks and hopefulness can do wonderful things to help healing, and the opposite is true. If you think prayer will help you and you think others are praying for it, it can help. But there are no miracles and the mind can only do so much.

::yes::
 
LoraJ said:
I did answer your question. You just don't like my answer.

So, if someone else gets cured, then their prayers were "answered" why does God/Jesus not care about the other people's whose prayers weren't answered?

I only think prayer is there to comfort people. And if what they wish for happens, I don't believe the prayer had anything to do with it. It just happened. I have seen several threads on these boards asking for prayers for their child's football team to win, or for little Jimmy to hit a home run. Why would people waste God's time with stuff like that when there is so much suffering in the world. So what happen's if Jimmy does nothing but strike out, does he get angry at God because the disboards prayed for him but nothing happened?

I don't have kids. And if I did, saying "no" if Billy wants a cookie is not the same as praying for someone who is very ill. Your reasoning as to why God only answers certain prayers is for your comfort when things don't go your way. It's the only explanation you have to keep you believing.

I think prayer can be comforting. People were praying for FFIL, it didn't help him physically, but it gave him comfort in knowing people were "thinking" about him.

Where? Would you ALWAYS say yes to your child? The fact is, if you answer my question, your argument sinks.
 
jimmiej said:
Where? Would you ALWAYS say yes to your child? The fact is, if you answer my question, your argument sinks.

Nope, you would not always say yes to your children... but on the other hand, you also would not send someone else's children to prison because they refused to call YOU mom or dad and turn away from their own parent. :)
 
jimmiej said:
Where? Would you ALWAYS say yes to your child? The fact is, if you answer my question, your argument sinks.


Your question is what you learn in 1st grade Sunday school class. You think I don't know where you are going? And my argument stinks? HA!
I told you, I don't have kids. Your analogy is that God doesn't say yes to all of his children? Right? You think I don't see where you are getting at? Which is why I gave you my argument. You just don't want to accept it. To you it is black and white, the answer is because Go can't answer all prayers. I don't accept that. You can believe that all you want. to me, the world is not as simple as that.

I don't pray, I just have hopes and wishes. Like, I wish my FFIL could have been cured. that didn't happen. I deal with it. I hope I get good seats to the Brenaked Ladies concerts. Wow, I did! Cool! Now, if I had prayed for that to happen, I would have said that my prayers came true. But no, I just know I got lucky.
 
magicmato said:
Nope, you would not always say yes to your children... but on the other hand, you also would not send someone else's children to prison because they refused to call YOU mom or dad and turn away from their own parent. :)

No, we wouldnt send someones elses kid to prison for not calling us mom or dad but we would send them to prison for the bad things they have done.And as a parent we would take the punishment for those who call us mom or dad.
 
I think prayer is something we just have to agree to disagree about. We're not even talking about the same thing when we're talking prayer on this thread. One side is speaking of wishes and the other side is not. It isn't going to make sense to someone who doesn't believe. Prayer is much more complicated than people think. Obviously.
 
Amity 3 said:
if I pray to Jesus to make the skywriting go away, will it?

No way. God doesn't listen to the bad sons that have run away from home.
 
Amity 3 said:
if I pray to Jesus to make the skywriting go away, will it?

As much as praying to the Pink Elephants Whose Antimatter Glorious Gas Yielded the Universe Complete (Pew-agg-yuc) will :Pinkbounc :Pinkbounc :Pinkbounc :teeth:
 
LoraJ said:
Your question is what you learn in 1st grade Sunday school class. You think I don't know where you are going? And my argument stinks? HA!

I didn't say STINKS. I said SINKS (no misspelling). Go back & look.

LoraJ said:
I told you, I don't have kids. Your analogy is that God doesn't say yes to all of his children? Right?


Wrong! I never said God doesn't say YES to all His children. I said His answer is not always yes. His answers are yes, no, or wait, just like a parent would say to their child.

Look, I'm not trying to convince you to believe in prayer. I'm just saying, if parents say yes, no, or wait, why do we expect God to say yes every time? And when He doesn't, that's proof prayer is a myth? Why can't you admit that makes sense?
 
jimmiej said:
Look, I'm not trying to convince you to believe in prayer. I'm just saying, if parents say yes, no, or wait, why do we expect God to say yes every time? And when He doesn't, that's proof prayer is a myth? Why can't you admit that makes sense?

Why can't you admit that answered prayers are coincidences?
 
jimmiej said:
I'm just saying, if parents say yes, no, or wait, why do we expect God to say yes every time? And when He doesn't, that's proof prayer is a myth? Why can't you admit that makes sense?

Because it is the apologist avoiding the lack of verifiable results.* Replace "God" with "Vishnu" or "Beelzebub" or "Bill Gates" or (insert "deity" here) and then pray. Does "Yes/No/(Wait (Maybe - Try Again Later)" apply in that case? There are people who will claim it does, so when you understand why you think they are all wrong, you will understand why you are wrong in your assertion that "Yes/no/maybe:try-again" is in any way a valid point proving that "praying" for "wants" works.



*yes, I know there are basically two types of prayers, "wants" and "thanks"... we are of course talking about "wants" prayers
 
Zippa D Doodah said:
Gawrsh... I had forgotten about this thread! A couple of things:

1) I DID see the skywriter on my trip to WDW last month! I wasn't even thinking about it, then on the last day we were playing in the pool at the CBR when DD9 notices letters in the sky. I didn't see the plane; all I could see was "SU". I told DD what it was about. It was like a celebrity spotting :goodvibes

2) On prayer... It can be a "dangerous" thing to pray for someone to be healed. Sometimes healing comes in death. Cancer and other diseases are not the will of God. Our life here on earth is a beautiful treasure, but it is not all there is. Sometimes death is victory; sometimes death is a positive answer to prayer.


:offtopic: Sorry, I am posting off topic for a moment:

Hey Zippa D Doodah :wave2: Glad to see you back.
How was your trip? Will you be posting a report? Pictures?
I have been spending most of my DIS time on the project/clues threads. I haven't been around Theme Parks board in over a week so if you posted pics I missed them. Let me know if they are up somewhere. I would like to see them. I hope your family had a great time! I am glad to read that you saw our skywriter! :teeth:

Oh, our Panthers had some bad games while you were gone! :guilty:
 
TLHB70 said:
:offtopic: Sorry, I am posting off topic for a moment:

Hey Zippa D Doodah :wave2: Glad to see you back.
How was your trip? Will you be posting a report? Pictures?
I have been spending most of my DIS time on the project/clues threads. I haven't been around Theme Parks board in over a week so if you posted pics I missed them. Let me know if they are up somewhere. I would like to see them. I hope your family had a great time! I am glad to read that you saw our skywriter! :teeth:

Oh, our Panthers had some bad games while you were gone! :guilty:


Thanks! LOL... I am notoriously slow with TRs. I still have to get some pix uploaded. It's always so hard to get caught back up with life after a trip. We had a GREAT trip. Thanks for asking.
 
LoraJ said:
Why can't you admit that answered prayers are coincidences?

I have no reason to. I believe in prayer.

1 Corinthians 1:17-19

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
 


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