What to do when your sister is headed for a cliff...

[pat fan]

OP
Not much you can do. We see it all the time with my SIL too. We had to buy her a washing machine a few years ago, (well, not HAD to, but DH felt bad for her) and then a couple weeks later her DH was showing mine all his cool new tools ho bought. Hello! We just paid $300-ish for a washer for you and you have all these new Snap-On tools?!?

Last year we paid a towing charge for her because she let her insurance lapse on her car and got pulled over.
My DH says no more bailing them out, but we'll see. BTW, she's in her LATE 40's with a DH and 3 kids, so she aught to know better!

The only reason that I know this is because my parents do not forgive the debts. They keep a running tab. I'm the executor of their wills. It will be my responsibility to tell the deadbeat brothers that they already spent their share of the "estate".

Boy, this sounds like my in-laws! My FIL has a book where he has recorded all the money SIL has "borrowed" and not paid back, and he says she'll be in for an awakening when he dies and she doesn't get her exact half of whatever since she already got a portion of it! (There is only my DH and his sis). Of course, I think all that is weird. All my siblings and I will get is heartache when my parents go. Not a pot to pee in but love all over

 

[RachelsMommie]

That's the other strange thing. We grew up with horses, so we all understand everything that can go wrong with a horse, plus all of the costs associated with owning one. Farriers (horseshoeing), vets, feed, tack, etc. She really should know better. Plus, horses can drop dead and you're stuck with paying off an animal that no longer exists. Plus horses are hard to sell. Plus, $7500 for this horse is WAY too much. Looking at his training, breed, and papers, they shouldn't pay more than $2K for this animal.

<sigh> Going to a horse show this morning to see their daughter ride. I don't get "feelings" about things very often, but I have a really bad feeling about this one. And my feelings are generally right.

 

[dvcgirl]

I let my feelings be known at dinner, as did my parents and my other sister. It was a strange dinner as my oldest sister bought a horse yesterday for her daughter. Let's call her "Sister A". Sister A has a "horse property" with a barn, land, etc. They make over $650K a year. She paid $2500 cash for the horse. I have no problem with her getting a horse for her daughter.

The problem is, I'm not supposed to know that "Sister B" borrowed money from my parents. She has broken down crying to me twice about their money problems, and my mom told me in confidence about the money they borrowed and about forgiving the debt. I'm not supposed to know about it.

My mom is so upset. I told her that she and my dad need to tell Sister B that if they buy this horse, don't expect to borrow money from my parents again. My parents won't do it as they worry that they might really need money and want to be there for the family. Trouble is, my parents are approaching 70 and are trying to pay off their house so they can retire. So I get to listen to my parents worry about money while I think my sister just snookered them out of 2 grand.

I know there is nothing I can do. I could tell my sister and her husband are FURIOUS with me for saying anything last night. I've offered them Dave's book before and they declined. They think I'm crazy. Hey, my DH and I are crazy like foxes. We're happy to be living like no one else!

Thanks for all of the responses. I knew you guys would understand and I figured there was nothing more I could do.

Well, it sounds like Sister B (with no money) is trying to keep up with the Joneses (which is your family happens to be Sister A with the 650K income).

It's going to be very difficult, but you just have to stand by and watch. I do agree with you about talking to your parents about how *they* handle the situation. They're enabling the dysfunction to continue if they loan your sister and BIL money.

We've been battling this same issue in my husband's family. His brother is recently divorced. Brother and his ex are in just terrible financial shape. The adult grandchildren are both complete and utter messes in just about every department. And they *all* go to my husband's parents for money. They're in their upper 70s and my husband had to step in to try and stop it. We purchased a couple of books for them, one being the book Boundaries that DR always recommends. Another about setting limits with your adult children. They read them....and it really helped.

Before we stepped in with some gentle advice and those books, they really thought that they were helping them. The books helped them to understand that they were actually harming them.

And so, I'd tackle it from that angle.....protect your parents and just hope that your sister and family wake up.

 

[princessnoelly]

My brother is like this. My parents bought him a truck after he got fired and his work truck taken back by the company. He was fired for not working but running his "dream BMX track" during the work day and using company equipment and employees for his personal dream business.

He said he would pay my parents back...My mom complained to me yesterday that he hadn't. I told her that it was a good thing they held the title.

my brother had also filed BK about 4 years ago- no he is up to about 25k in credit card debt.

YOu can't do anything. Money has ruined my relationship with him- there isn't enough time to go into all the money issues- but I did forgive a loan I made to him of about 5K 8 years ago.

Just turn the other cheek. Your parents heard this too. When they ask for money next maybe they'll ask how the horse is doing?

 

[labdogs42]

Do Sister A&B live close enough that sister B's kid could ride sister A's horse? That would really make this easier! It does sound like sister B is trying to keep pace with the older sister. Maybe Sister A could offer a better alternative. As for you (sister C, I guess?), I think you have no choice but to stay out of it now. You've said your piece and they obviously didn't want to hear it. As everyone else said, just don't lend them money! Hang in there. It is going to be hard to watch them self destruct like that.

 

[RachelsMommie]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. As to my parents' will, they are naming all 3 of us as joint executors. Yeah, that's a role I'm looking forward to. Originally, my sister was the executor, but my parents changed it when they borrowed the money the second time. They were worried that their money problems might influence their being fair with execution of the will.

The book Boundaries is a great idea. I'm trying to get my parents to see that giving them the money didn't help. I advised them not to forgive the debt as my sister and her husband need to learn to manage their resources, but they didn't listen to me. Now they are regretting it.

And my sister and her husband are furious with me and called this morning to say that I don't "have to" come to their daughter's show. Sorry, but she's my niece and she's the one who invited me, so we're going. <sigh>

 

[clh2]

3 executors for a will sounds like a nightmare. At least, your parents didn't leave the sister as sole-executor.

While of course as a sister - it would be tough for me to mind my own business. So I probably would have said something too!

And...just remember: You can't fix stupid.

 

[dvcgirl]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. As to my parents' will, they are naming all 3 of us as joint executors. Yeah, that's a role I'm looking forward to. Originally, my sister was the executor, but my parents changed it when they borrowed the money the second time. They were worried that their money problems might influence their being fair with execution of the will.

The book Boundaries is a great idea. I'm trying to get my parents to see that giving them the money didn't help. I advised them not to forgive the debt as my sister and her husband need to learn to manage their resources, but they didn't listen to me. Now they are regretting it.

And my sister and her husband are furious with me and called this morning to say that I don't "have to" come to their daughter's show. Sorry, but she's my niece and she's the one who invited me, so we're going. <sigh>

The book will help. In speaking with your sister on this matter, I would tell her that her family's financial affairs are absolutely none of your business, but the financial affairs of your parents are your business....to a certain degree.....especially as they age.

We have a situation where my husband's brother would positively milk his parents dry given the chance. Thankfully, my in-laws can see the situation for what it is. And while we may not prevent them helping him now and then with small transactions, we're trying to prevent the "crazy transactions"....like them buying their son a house or something insane like that. My husband's brother actually asked his parents if they'd buy a house and hold the note and then he'd make payments to them (yeah right). He "didn't want to live in an apartment". Too bad, perhaps if you had one ounce of gumption and actually did something with your life....you'd be in a position to purchase a home. As it stands....he does not, and so he'll be a renter.

And trust me, this is after years and years (and years), of financial help in their direction.

My in-laws are incredibly healthy for two people pushing 80. There isn't a thing wrong with them other than my MIL taking a mild hypertensive medication. These people will easily see 90....and possibly 100. We've told them that they'll need every penny they have to support themselves for the remainder of their lives. And they think about that as well. We've also told them to think about what will happen to their son once they are gone.....what then? We told them that we will not financially support my husband's brother when he is capable of doing so himself. So, he'd better figure out how to do that on his own.

 

[Fjobe]

Another Dave Ramsey fan here!


I would lovingly and calmly tell my sister my concerns. I would also keep in mind she probably won't listen, but at least you can have the peace of mind that you tried to help her.

Would sister A allow sister B to keep the horse at her place? Obviously, no horse would be better, but just wondering if this is an option.

 

[Praying Colonel]

Okay, I need some advice. Sorry this is so long.

I have 2 older sisters, both of which are totally different from me. I'm the "crazy Dave Ramsey follower". They are the "enjoy your life" spenders.

My sister and her husband have been fighting their way out of debt. She has a high-paying job, and he owns a landscaping company that employs 1 or 2 people. They have borrowed money from my parents twice in the past 2 years when things got bad enough that they needed help. My parents don't know why they borrowed money as they weren't given a reason. FWIW, I think they borrowed money for "unexpected" expenses like car and house maintenance.

Anyway, the first time, they paid it back. The second time, they kept promising to pay it back but never did. Finally, my parents went to them and said they were forgiving the balance of the loan (around $2500) since they were so stressed about paying the money back. My sister and her DH were SO happy and thanked my parents. They said they were especially stressed since my sister's job has been looking shaky as her company is outsourcing like crazy lately. They loan forgiveness happened about 3 or 4 months ago.

So fast forward to tonight. We all went out for a family dinner for my birthday. During dinner, my sister mentioned they were buying a horse for their DD10. Okay, my sister lives on a tiny lot in a suburb like we do, so I laugh as I thought she was kidding. They say they are boarding the horse at the stable where she takes lessons and the trainer said for $560/month, the horse's boarding is covered plus their daughter's lessons. I ask how much this horse they are buying costs, and they tell me $7500. Yeah, I almost threw up. They don't have that kind of money, so the owner (who is also the owner of the stable) is going to let them pay it in monthly installments.

So they couldn't pay my parents $2500, her job is unstable, he is self-employed, and they have a lot of debt, but they are going to take on $560/month in horse boarding/lessons/fees, PLUS $7500 worth of debt for the horse (and I don't know what that monthly payment is).

How do I stop them from this STUPIDITY???? Sorry this is so long, but I am so scared for my sister and need help with what I can say to stop her from putting their financial well-being at risk.

Thanks in advance!

I read this over a few times. Nowhere in there did I read that sister asked OP for help.

There's nothing you can do. "Those convinced against their will or of the same opinion still."

And whatever went on between sis and the parents is just that--between them.

 

[clh2]

I've had to bite my tongue while two of my brothers continually borrow from my parents and not pay them back. Over and over again. For stupid things like not having the money to pay for their tickets when they get to Disney because spendthrift sister in law didn't set the money aside but promised to pay it back when the next week's paycheck was deposited. The only reason that I know this is because my parents do not forgive the debts. They keep a running tab. I'm the executor of their wills. It will be my responsibility to tell the deadbeat brothers that they already spent their share of the "estate".

I know this is way off topic from the OP's post. I can certainly understand your parent's way of wanting to handle the amounts owed to them. Makes perfect sense IMHO. However, as the executor of the wills - you are obligated, i.e. legally responsible to handle the estate exactly as it is specified in the will. If there is no mention of the "outstanding debts" and how that gets handled...there will be nothing you can do. EVENTHOUGH - you understand your parents intentions. You may want to talk to your parents about this.

 

[dvcgirl]

I read this over a few times. Nowhere in there did I read that sister asked OP for help.

There's nothing you can do. "Those convinced against their will or of the same opinion still."

And whatever went on between sis and the parents is just that--between them.

I agree with the DR quote..."Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.".

As to what goes on between the sister and the parents being "between them".....I disagree.....to a certain degree when it comes to financial matters. Every adult child needs to be looking out for their parents on this front. If my parents or in-laws got involved in some internet phishing scam where some criminal was trying to con them out of money, I'd step in immediately to try and stop it.

If a sibling is continually going to "the financial well" that is the parents' nest egg....someone has to step in and try and stop that. In this case, the loan to the misbehaving sister was concerning enough to the Mother that she shared it with our OP. And the initial loan was paid back....telling me that we're not talking about a massive nest egg on the part of the parents.

The behavior of the one sister is causing stress for all....for the parents who forgave the second loan as they knew it was causing their daughter a great deal of stress. And for the other two siblings as they see their sister misbehaving with money and then going to their parents to bail them out.

I wouldn't jeopardize my relationship with my family, but I'd try to gently persuade my parents that they are hurting their daughter by bailing her out.

$7,500 horses and the myriad of expenses that goes with them are for people with loads of discretionary income. That doesn't sound like the case here by a long shot.

 

[Marionnette]

I know this is way off topic from the OP's post. I can certainly understand your parent's way of wanting to handle the amounts owed to them. Makes perfect sense IMHO. However, as the executor of the wills - you are obligated, i.e. legally responsible to handle the estate exactly as it is specified in the will. If there is no mention of the "outstanding debts" and how that gets handled...there will be nothing you can do. EVENTHOUGH - you understand your parents intentions. You may want to talk to your parents about this.

They have a handle on things. Their wills have been written in a way to take any loans into account.

 

[tlbwriter]

I know this is way off topic from the OP's post. I can certainly understand your parent's way of wanting to handle the amounts owed to them. Makes perfect sense IMHO. However, as the executor of the wills - you are obligated, i.e. legally responsible to handle the estate exactly as it is specified in the will. If there is no mention of the "outstanding debts" and how that gets handled...there will be nothing you can do. EVENTHOUGH - you understand your parents intentions. You may want to talk to your parents about this.

It works if you're specific enough. I know a couple in the same situation - they have set up college funds for each grandchild, and one is in college and is spending hers (and also asking for money for things other than college). The money is in their name, not hers, so any distribution after their death must be handled by the executor. They are keeping records to show what has already been spent from "her" money, and their will specifies that the money in X account is meant for her use (rather than specifying a dollar amount).

 

[luvmy3]

I don't think it hurts to voice your feelings, opinion and concern to your sister and your parents, they are your family and its never wrong to try to help them. However I think thats all you can do, its not your place to try to control what those parties do with their finances.

 

[Vijoge]

I agree with the DR quote..."Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.".

No disrespect to Dave Ramsey, but he's not the originator of this quote. It's been around a while.

"He that complies against his will,
Is of the same opinion still."

It is from "Hudibras," by the earlier Samuel Butler (1612-1660)
Source:
Hudibras, Part III, Chapter III, Line 547

 

[wdwmom0f3]

You don't say anything. Their financial situation really isn't any of your business. If they come to you to borrow money, a simple no is all you need to say.

That's the way I feel about it too.

You cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. Only thing you can do is pray that they do not ask your parents for any help and if they do that your parents can tell them sorry but no.

My husband says this all of the time, and it's so true.

I see this problem all the time. When people continue to get bailed out of their money problems they will not learn. Until they hit rock bottom with no where to turn, then they might learn a thing or two.

 

[crisi]

The problem is, I'm not supposed to know that "Sister B" borrowed money from my parents. She has broken down crying to me twice about their money problems, and my mom told me in confidence about the money they borrowed and about forgiving the debt. I'm not supposed to know about it.

At the point Sister B broke down to you about your money problems, she invited you to comment and have an opinion. If she needs a sympathetic confidential ear, she needs to get a therapist. If she needs a no-emotion, keep it confidential loan, she needs a banker. If she gripes about money problems to her family and borrows money from her family, she cannot expect it not to become everyone's business.

I wouldn't stress about it. I would encourage your parents to establish boundaries. But I would give "advice" - as in "do you think that's wise when just a few months ago you were afraid for your job and worried about your bills?" or "boy, its going to be really tough on your daughter when that first $3k vet bill for the horse comes and you can't pay it and the horse needs to be put down. I understand that's pretty common with horses."

At the same time, the horse is a done deal. I'd work to establish boundaries with your sister. IF she complains to you about money, she INVITES you to give advice and have opinions. IF she doesn't bring up the topic ever again, you will live and let live and bite your tongue and assume they won the lottery. And that extends to her making comments about how you spend or don't spend as well ("I don't know how you can afford to vacation.") When she starts crossing it, remind her that it isn't a good topic for the two of you.

 

[robinb]

Okay, I need some advice. Sorry this is so long.

I have 2 older sisters, both of which are totally different from me. I'm the "crazy Dave Ramsey follower". They are the "enjoy your life" spenders.

My sister and her husband have been fighting their way out of debt. She has a high-paying job, and he owns a landscaping company that employs 1 or 2 people. They have borrowed money from my parents twice in the past 2 years when things got bad enough that they needed help. My parents don't know why they borrowed money as they weren't given a reason. FWIW, I think they borrowed money for "unexpected" expenses like car and house maintenance.

Anyway, the first time, they paid it back. The second time, they kept promising to pay it back but never did. Finally, my parents went to them and said they were forgiving the balance of the loan (around $2500) since they were so stressed about paying the money back. My sister and her DH were SO happy and thanked my parents. They said they were especially stressed since my sister's job has been looking shaky as her company is outsourcing like crazy lately. They loan forgiveness happened about 3 or 4 months ago.

So fast forward to tonight. We all went out for a family dinner for my birthday. During dinner, my sister mentioned they were buying a horse for their DD10. Okay, my sister lives on a tiny lot in a suburb like we do, so I laugh as I thought she was kidding. They say they are boarding the horse at the stable where she takes lessons and the trainer said for $560/month, the horse's boarding is covered plus their daughter's lessons. I ask how much this horse they are buying costs, and they tell me $7500. Yeah, I almost threw up. They don't have that kind of money, so the owner (who is also the owner of the stable) is going to let them pay it in monthly installments.

So they couldn't pay my parents $2500, her job is unstable, he is self-employed, and they have a lot of debt, but they are going to take on $560/month in horse boarding/lessons/fees, PLUS $7500 worth of debt for the horse (and I don't know what that monthly payment is).

How do I stop them from this STUPIDITY???? Sorry this is so long, but I am so scared for my sister and need help with what I can say to stop her from putting their financial well-being at risk.

Thanks in advance!

In short, there is really nothing you can do.

I know someone exactly like this. She spends and spends on wants (like big screen TVs when they were VERY expensive, weekends away with and without the kids, expensive date night dinners, fancy phones, laptops for everyone, 3 different gaming systems for the kids, etc) but doesn't seem to have the money for needs (like their mortgage, utilities & car repair). They lost their house when they stopped paying their mortgage after using it as an ATM. That proved to just be a speed bump in their life. Oh ... and this person also owes her family 10x more than your sister and has made no effort to pay it back.

 

[dvcgirl]

No disrespect to Dave Ramsey, but he's not the originator of this quote. It's been around a while.

"He that complies against his will,
Is of the same opinion still."

It is from "Hudibras," by the earlier Samuel Butler (1612-1660)
Source:
Hudibras, Part III, Chapter III, Line 547

I know.....but most people here likely know it from Dave Ramsey...who uses it all of the time... His grandmother used it on him when he was younger.