What should be cut first?

[dsny1mom]

The true value of any employee is the extra mile he/she goes behind the scenes.

Well said.

dsny1mom

 

[kaytieeldr]

I am just curious as to what time elementary schools start in your area? Most in our district start at 9:15 and are released at 3:45. So we could actually start a bit earlier to do a 4 day school week, but the district is so large I am not sure the parents would go for it.

Rats. I just closed the page, and don't remember exactly where I found it. 8:50, I think? I found it.
High schools 7:15 - 1:50
Junior high 8:10 - 2:30
Elementary 8:50 - 2:55

Only one set of buses serving all three levels, so not a lot can be done to start the day earlier.

 

[Hazzard101]

Today, under P.L.102-119, all schools must offer special educational services to eligible 3-21 year old individuals with disabilities.

If the school system doesn't offer a quality education, not only do they have to send the child to a qualified school, they have to foot the bill.

I honestly cannot fathom that anyone believes that cutting special ed is the way to trim fat out of a budget. That is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard on this forum.

Read the posts people. The poster said that special ed programs should not be cut.

 

[Hazzard101]

Sorry, but the work ethic in the south is well known and not for the good. I think the real test would be for you to come north and see the work ethic around here and you would understand what I am saying. When schools in Texas and other southern states do phone interviews and hire over the phone students graduating from MN schools, that speaks volumes.

Ok, I need to interject here because I was a worker the north, CT. to be exact.
I worked in many different careers growing up. I lived there for over 28 years and the work ethic was lacking in so many different ways. First I worked through my high school years at a supermarket. Seeing it is a Unionized job People could not be fired for anything. If you were fired it was after an act of congress.

I worked for the electric and gas companies and there was another job you would have to kill someone before you got canned. there were a lot of times people who worked there would get caught sleeping in the trucks insted of working.

There were a few more before I left and went to my southern home of Alabama. When I came here I noticed people worked their butts off. And make less than they do where I just came from. They also had an understanding that there are no unions here to allow them to slack off and the boss can fire anyone for any reason.

The work ethic is strong down here in the south......but you would not understand that seeing you are not from a southern state.

BTW... The school system that I work in has too many support professionals that do not do what they need to do and drive around all day instead of doing their jobs. They need to go to work in a northern state so they can flourish with the rest of the ethical workaholics up north. So we can have the money to pay the teachers to continue to educate our children.

I work in a school system here and know exactly how it works and how things are run.

 

[december]

I have tried to stay away from this thread, but insomnia is pulling me back in.

Obviously, I'm teaching in the wrong state! I am at work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 189 days a year. 180 of those are with kids, 9 are teacher workdays. I'd much rather have the kids! My day starts at 7:25, and ends at 3:25. That is when I don't have ballgame duty, or kids staying over for tutoring. We have 7 pds a day. I teach 6 pds, and have a planning pd. That pd is not free time, or break time! That is when I'm supposed to grade 120 papers, make out tests, make copies, work on lesson plans, cover other teachers classes, etc. And I don't get a lunch break-I walk my kids across the road to the cafeteria, eat with them, and 25 min later walk them back! Of course I have to take home work-there is no humanly way to get it all done otherwise!

Next week is spring break, but I will spend it working on a grad class, that I pay for, to renew my certification. And yes, I get my summer, thank goodness! But most teachers will start back to work in their rooms at least one week early, leaving 8 weeks of summer vacation. And yes we do some planning during that 8 wks!

And after 14 yrs of this, I'm not making $40,000 yet! And I seriously doubt I will make it there next year either. There are no unions here, we don't have a copay on our insurance (we pay every dime until we hit our obscene deductible), and no one gets paid for opting out of coverage!

I love my job, love that I am filling a need for my students, and that I get a fresh start every fall. I knew I would never be rich when I chose my career. I just wish others would quit bashing a profession that you don't know anything about!

I'm still trying to get past the poor work ethic in the South comment. I can't really say anything nice about that. Prejudice is a horrible thing-and making blanket comments about southerners is no different than making blanket statements about minorities or women. It reflects very poorly on the pp.

 

[jlima]

With all the talk about school districts cutting teachers, my thoughts turn to what absolutely is so important that it should not be cut, and what is "extra"?

Any thoughts?

My kids go to private schools; but I've spent time in public school classrooms through my work. I cannot believe the "stuff" the public school classrooms have here - three computers in every classroom, a TV & DVD player in every classroom, furniture with cubbies and coat hooks in every classroom, multiple bulletin boards - do they really need all this stuff?

As for the teachers, the school district here is so big that sometimes the teachers just don't know about all the resources that are out there. There is a program that the school district runs where the teachers get $200 in script every year and they can go to a warehouse and "buy" stuff for their classrooms that is donated by local business and charity drives throughout the year. Some teachers don't even bother or don't know about it. There is a MAJOR casino with a popular attraction on the Strip that will give any local school district employee with ID four tickets to the attraction. At the job I was laid off from, I would get phone calls from teachers asking could my office donate tickets for their Halloween Carnival, PTO raffle, etc and when I would tell these teachers, Oh, you don't need to ask us, just show your employee ID at ___ and you get 4 free tickets, you could feel the over the phone, but also because they had no idea this resource was available to them.

As for sports, just cut back. Make a football season 10 games instead of 12 or 8 games instead of 10. Make the parents transport the kids to away games instead of paying for a bus every time. Tell the parents the school district can pay X for your child's sports program; and if you want them to have extras like homecoming uniforms or letter jackets, to raise the money through their booster programs and sponsorships, or charge each child X dollars to participate. Or make the minor sports "club" sports - tell the kids yes, you can represent your school but we're not going to pay a teacher to coach you and we're not going to pay for your equipment or transportation. It hurts, but it gets impossible to fund every fencing team and diving team and you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[jlima]

Bussing seems to be a hot button topic. It costs a small fortune to bus. Our district has neighborhood grammar schools; yet we have a ton of buses. I would like to see a redistricting done to eliminate bussing wherever possible.

Yep. The school district here already has busing regulations; you have to live like more than 1.5 miles away from the school to ride a bus. Don't think they can cut this too much more here.

 

[honugirl]

I'd like to stop paying for replacement stuff. I have a friend in high school. The kids there NEVER take care of the equipment they're given. In video production class they were able to fry EVERY SINGLE camera except one. Now they expect me as a tax payer to buy them more cameras. Sorry. Already bought you one. You broke it, you buy the next one. Maybe if the students and their families had to pay for stuff, they might be a little more careful the next time.

Institute lab/material fees to cover the costs of all the electronics they "need". The school district where I live actually wanted a levy to put wireless internet in all the schools at a hefty price so all the classrooms could have it. Um, no. We made do with the computer lab and the one computer that circulated through our classrooms, so can they. It's not like these kids don't get enough computer time at home...

Cut out anything frivolous. They don't need projectors and power point in every class room. We made do with over head projectors, white boards and other stuff, so can they.

Get rid of assemblies that aren't productive and actually teach students during that time. Did we really need a stupid pep rally almost every week? They were a waste of time.

Sit down and actually teach students useful things like history, math, and English. My friend can't tell you anything about the US, but can tell you all about Ikebana. Which would be useful if he was going to be a florist! And this wasn't even in horticulture class where it might be appropriate.

 

[golfgal]

I was using the 7 hours a day teachers are in their building to calculate their hourly wage, not just student time. Students are in the building 5 of those 7 hours. That gives teachers at the school I am talking about 10 hours a week for tasks other than actual instruction. So any time needed beyond that would end be "homework" so to speak. So no I don't think all of the non instructional work should be done on their own time.

I see what you mean about how my calculations were off regarding the non working days. However the teachers in this area are off most of June, all of July and 2-3 weeks in Aug. Then they are off one week for spring break and two weeks for winter break. That gives them more like 13 full weeks off plus weekends during their teaching weeks. Not 8.

How many jobs pay $32 an hour to start and offer 13 weeks off a year with no weekends and only a handfull of days where they are at their place of employment past 4PM? Then when you look at the excelent pensions they receive...... it just amazes me that the idea of doing some of their paper grading and other tasks during their off hours is so off putting.

I know you said you are not represented by a union. Here is Il the teachers union is the strongest union in the state. Stronger than the teamsters.

dsny1mom

Your kids only have 5 hours of classes every day

 

[klj27]

I think it is hard for us to say whether or not "school districts" as a whole are wasteful, because we are probably only looking at our own experiences, which are all different. I have lived in a wasteful district (Urban school district) and a very thrifty district now. Amazingly the thrifty district is rated one of the top in the state. They do have a super and two assistants, as well as directors of other departments. The high school has a principal and four assistants but they also have over 2500 students. When my husband worked for this district he was paid well (an elementary administrator - not six figures) but the stress was incredible. Imagine parents trying to protect their little "snowflakes", the public feeling like they know better because they pay his salary with taxes, and the higher ups demanding that top ratings are kept at any cost. I don't know how one position can have so many "bosses". He is at a private school with a 45% paycut (which is very hard on us) but his quality of life is so much better.
I really don't know how this district could cut costs and remain so educationally revered.

Now, the urban district that we used to live in could cut, cut, cut. I do have issues with a whole school (SCPA) that is for the artistically gifted run with tax payer dollars, but yet they don't have enough money to teach kids in the neighborhood schools. My husband took a class with someone who taught costume design and his classroom budget was $8000 a semester! Not an educational necessity to me. (Hopefully these costumes were used for productions that were bringing in money.) That is also a district where they are working on a massive construction project and building new schools, because the kids can't possibly learn in old buildings. The new buildings are very nice but they are finding these kids are still getting the same education with more frills. This district also employs the teaching coaches that someone else mentioned at a high rate of pay. (administrative level) There is one principal that comes to mind who does an amazing job in a very poor neighborhood and in a very old school building. He is getting results and I am sure is worth every penny he is paid. Better to pay and keep dedicated people like him who can get results better than a new building and smart boards can.

 

[golfgal]

I think it is hard for us to say whether or not "school districts" as a whole are wasteful, because we are probably only looking at our own experiences, which are all different. I have lived in a wasteful district (Urban school district) and a very thrifty district now. Amazingly the thrifty district is rated one of the top in the state. They do have a super and two assistants, as well as directors of other departments. The high school has a principal and four assistants but they also have over 2500 students. When my husband worked for this district he was paid well (an elementary administrator - not six figures) but the stress was incredible. Imagine parents trying to protect their little "snowflakes", the public feeling like they know better because they pay his salary with taxes, and the higher ups demanding that top ratings are kept at any cost. I don't know how one position can have so many "bosses". He is at a private school with a 45% paycut (which is very hard on us) but his quality of life is so much better.
I really don't know how this district could cut costs and remain so educationally revered.

Now, the urban district that we used to live in could cut, cut, cut. I do have issues with a whole school (SCPA) that is for the artistically gifted run with tax payer dollars, but yet they don't have enough money to teach kids in the neighborhood schools. My husband took a class with someone who taught costume design and his classroom budget was $8000 a semester! Not an educational necessity to me. (Hopefully these costumes were used for productions that were bringing in money.) That is also a district where they are working on a massive construction project and building new schools, because the kids can't possibly learn in old buildings. The new buildings are very nice but they are finding these kids are still getting the same education with more frills. This district also employs the teaching coaches that someone else mentioned at a high rate of pay. (administrative level) There is one principal that comes to mind who does an amazing job in a very poor neighborhood and in a very old school building. He is getting results and I am sure is worth every penny he is paid. Better to pay and keep dedicated people like him who can get results better than a new building and smart boards can.

Is this a typo or does your district really only have 2500 students? Our district has 29,000 student and we only have one assistant superintendent. Heck, 3 of the 5 high schools in our district have more then 2500 kids.

 

[klj27]

Is this a typo or does your district really only have 2500 students? Our district has 29,000 student and we only have one assistant superintendent. Heck, 3 of the 5 high schools in our district have more then 2500 kids.

It says the high school has over 2500 students, not the district. It could be more than that because it is the largest high school in the state.

Your description of your district kind of makes my point: we may have more higher ups, but obviously it is working because our per student spending is well below the state and local average and we are ranked the highest. An outsider may say that we don't need two asst supers because we only have 10,000 students but the people in charge of our district must know what they are doing because we are getting a great return on our investment.

 

[golfgal]

It says the high school has over 2500 students, not the district. It could be more than that because it is the largest high school in the state.

Your description of your district kind of makes my point: we may have more higher ups, but obviously it is working because our per student spending is well below the state and local average and we are ranked the highest. An outsider may say that we don't need two asst supers because we only have 10,000 students but the people in charge of our district must know what they are doing because we are getting a great return on our investment.

Ok, too early in the morning. Our district is well below national averages too and right in the middle of our state average yet we are the highest rated district in the state and in the top 17% in the nation. Per pupil funding can be a little misleading. The poorer districts are always going to have higher per pupil funding because they have a lot more special ed programs they have to fund but you do need to have ENOUGH money to run the school properly too.

 

[Disneyrsh]

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[kaytieeldr]

Our district does this, and the parents either walk or drive to the bus stop to meet their kids and get them the rest of the way home. Nobody complains about it-maybe it's only the parents of the young kids who have to get off their butts and tear themselves away from soap operas or the computer who are complaining

That's not fair. More likely is that these parents work and, while they're okay with letting their kids walk home from the corner and letting themselves into the house safely - they're less comfortable with having the nine year old walk ten blocks alone.

 

[daughtersrus]

Teaching is a salaried position. Salaried positions require an employee to work whatever hours are necessary to complete the job. If a teacher is required to work more hours they are not being expected to do so for free, it's part of their salareid position.

I don't need to shadow a teacher to know what one in my area *goes through* nor am I sadly ignorant about the teaching profession. My next door neighbor teaches HS math and I have a teacher that works for me very PT to get our lucrative discount and they both talk freely about their teaching positions. They get the occasional unreasonable parent but nothing more difficult than what other professionals have to deal with with dissatisfied customers.

My employee teaches in a very nice suburban district. Her students are with her 9-3. She is required to be in the building by 8:30 and isn't suppossed to leave before 4:00 (although she says it isn't uncommon for teachers to leave shortly after the students are dismissed). That's a 7 hour day at most. She occasionally brings work home but most professionals in other fields do this, as well . Add in all the time off not to mention no nights or weekends (with the exception of parent teacher conferances 4 x a year) and her 70K (as an elementary level teacher) ends up being approx. $50 an hour. After 25 years of teaching she will collect approx 80% of her pay in retirement. My neighbor as a HS teacher earns considerably more in her postiion and is home daily by 3pm.

I do appreciate what teachers do, just like I appreciate what all working people do, and I know that starting pay for teachers isn't 70K but most professions don't pay that at entry level either. Several of my children's friends have only been teachers a couple of years and their average salary is approx 45K. That makes their hourly pay around $32 an hour.Teachers also have the abilty to earn stipends for coaching, leading clubs etc. I feel teachers in my area are compensated very well. Not to mention people going into the teaching profession know upfront what the avearge pay for their area is and how many actual days they have to show up for that salary. If budgets need to be cut I see no reason why teachers should be protected from the difficult times the reast of society is dealing with. I'm not saying their pay should be cut but they certainly could be expected to work an 8 hour day without feeling short changed.

I do agree people can't have it both ways. That goes for teachers too.

I do have a suggestion for cutting costs in schools. Get rid of the teachers unions accross the country. It will save money for everyone, teachers included, and then teachers, like the rest of the American workers, not protected by unions, will be promoted, given raises, or terminated based on their preformance.

dsny1mom

When do these teachers grade papers, talk to parents, prepare for class...?

It's clear that you're anti-union. Would you suggest getting rid of all unions including those for police officers and fire fighters? If these were eliminated as well, the government would be spending less on these professionals and that money could then be put toward schools.

 

[Disneyrsh]

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[luvsJack]

We only lived in a southern state for a short period of time (MO) but my husbands company has worked with people from the south for 25 years and my experience is through that and the amount of time and effort they have to put in to get people in the divisions in the south to work to the production levels of the people in the north-plain and simple. Apples to apples comparison of the same, job, same work, same resources to get the job done. I didn't answer the question because I didn't see it.

Then your experience is telling you dead wrong. There is no lack of work ethic in the south. I cannot believe you would sit there in your high and mighty way and even say such a thing. Insulting an entire region of people has nothing to do with education nor does it add to the discussion of what should or should not be cut.

My husband worked in construction in several northern cities years ago. He hired very few crew members from the cities he worked in but chose to bring his own crew. He said that he got a better days work from the crew he brought with him and didn't have to go to the hassle of trying to train someone. He also had less problems with drug test coming back positive and workers not showing up. Sounds like he could make the same WRONG assumption about the north as you managed to make about the south.

 

[mhsjax]

Then your experience is telling you dead wrong. There is no lack of work ethic in the south. I cannot believe you would sit there in your high and mighty way and even say such a thing. Insulting an entire region of people has nothing to do with education nor does it add to the discussion of what should or should not be cut.

My husband worked in construction in several northern cities years ago. He hired very few crew members from the cities he worked in but chose to bring his own crew. He said that he got a better days work from the crew he brought with him and didn't have to go to the hassle of trying to train someone. He also had less problems with drug test coming back positive and workers not showing up. Sounds like he could make the same WRONG assumption about the north as you managed to make about the south.

I so much agree with you, Oh lord how I would love to say what I am thinking but I can't.

 

[mumom95]

Teaching is a salaried position. Salaried positions require an employee to work whatever hours are necessary to complete the job.

Teachers are contract employees. Which means they are paid to work a certain amount of days and a certain amount of hours during those days. Which is why they have to to be there by a certain time in the morning and they can't leave until a certain time in the afternoon. They can't choose what days they work and what days they take as vacation. That really isn't the same as salaried employees. Salaried employees get paid to get a certain amount of work done, but they usually don't have a set time they have to be there in the morning and a set time they can't leave before in the afternoon. Often times too they aren't told what weeks during the year they can have off for vacation.