What services should you have to pay for?

[johnsontrio]

What services should you have to pay for? All of them. One way or another, we pay for all the services we receive.

I'm on the side that says this was a nominal yearly fee to cover fire services in an area that didn't have a fire department. He didn't pay it, he doesn't get the service. There's really no shame to the firemen for not "saving" his double-wide, but you're welcome to think so if it makes you feel better.

The city didn't have to offer the services to the county residents for cryin' out loud! If the city HADN'T offered the fire services to the country residents, then this person would be in the exact same boat today only worse: his house would have burned down and likely taken every neighbor's house around until the fire burned itself out or it reached the city and the fire departments started protecting the city.

As for the point about deciding which lives to save based on a person's ability to pay or their desire to pay -

That decision is made each and every day, multiple times a day, and the answer is typically a cold, callous "no pay, no save" with most of the board posters here cheerfully and vehemently supporting the decision to allow thousands of American people to die a month because they can't or won't pay for the service. The only difference is the type of service being offered:

Health care.

And we're talking a hell of a lot more than $75.00 a year for that service.

And if a certain faction of Americans get their way there won't be taxes to pay for any services you rely on every day.

 

[JustCallMeMommy]

I would typically fall on the side of "no pay, no play" but there is a whole societal component that comes into fire fighting. Let's say that the winds picked up suddenly and the neighbors house caught fire. Would they have been negligent if their inaction set up a scenario where someone else's life or property was lost? I think the inaction really opens up their organization to a lawsuit for negligence.

IMO, they should have stopped the fire then billed the guy for every penny related to the rescue plus some stiff penalties.

 

[allison443]

I think there is more to this story.

I heard this morning on the radio that his son was burning trash--had an aerosol can in one barrel that exploded and caught the grass on fire. The fire spread to a shed and then to the house. I heard last night that there was a time period between the start of the fire and when it reached the house where something possibly could have been done to put out the fire/get the pets and stuff out of the house/etc.

Why didn't the son use the garden hose to put out the fire on the grass? Was the son even monitoring the trash burning in the barrels?

The man made a choice--not pay the $75 fee--and now has to live with the consequences.

I heard that too about the fire starting in a metal trash barrel.....so I guess this rural area doesn't have trash collection either?? Their taxes must be low!

 

[Carly_Roach]

And if a certain faction of Americans get their way there won't be taxes to pay for any services you rely on every day.

I'm uncertain of which faction you're refering to, but I can tell you that here in Michigan many services that people relied on for years have gone away and are still going away:

Police protection
Fire protection
Road upkeep
Clean water
Food inspections

The only faction that is responsible for that are the companies who've laid off so many people and are only employing Americans at service-level jobs that pay lower wages so they can rake in their billion dollar profit margins and bonuses for those at the top tier.

Once again, something the majority who post on this WDW vacation board cheer about and support 100%.

What they don't realize is that lower salaries means less income taxes being paid. Less income taxes mean fewer services. No jobs or non-supporting wage jobs means no property taxes being paid. No property taxes being paid means no services. Sure, there may be 10% in the county who can afford the McMansions, but that 10% alone can't support a fully-functional police and fire department, a fully-functional road commission, a fully-functional water system, etc, etc, etc that will protect them.

What we are seeing now is the result of too many of those at the top who's attitude of, "I've got mine and the hell with everyone else" has finally trickled down to where there simply aren't enough taxes to support the public services that protect everyone, rich or poor.

The only reason 1/2 the country doesn't pay income taxes anymore is because their salaries have shrunk to the point where they simply don't make enough to pay taxes. I know the Conservative media is spinning it another way, but them's the facts, ma'am. No money. No taxes. Simple as that.

 

[disneybound2010]

But to answer the OP, I pay for Fire and Emergency service as part of my property taxes but when my son was transported to the hospital our Ambulance service still billed my Health Insurance $55.

My Insurance paid it so I guess it is pretty common but I thought it was ridiculous.

This. We are taxed for everythign under the sun here. You were lucky to get a bill for only $55. Last year, I was transported by ambulance...less than 3 miles and we got a bill for $495 Our insurance covered it,too, but it disgusted me that here I am paying a ridiculously high ambulance fee every year and when I DO need it(first time ever) they charge an even higher fee. Something just isn't right about that.

 

[Nancyg56]

Some areas all of these fees are wrapped up in your taxes and some areas they charge a separate fee so the taxes look lower. You DO pay either way. I am sure this guy was protesting something or other but the fee was $75 and he should have paid. It isn't any different than someone not paying their property taxes.

THis reasoning means that if you are behind on property taxes you and your family are not entitled to the services those taxes provide. WOuld the police refuse to respond to an emergency that was not life threatening? Would your child be tossed off of the school bus? WOuld you be denied access tot he library or the Senior Center?

The guy should have paid the fee but becasue he did not it would have been acceptable to place a lien on his home, much the same as one who has not paid taxes.

But if something happened at this fire, they would not be insured like they are at other fires where the bills have been paid.

How do you know this?

Because I feel that taxes are collected to provide basic safety services. This almost sounds like "protection money" that one must pay organized crime.

I am not sure that I agree. I know that some towns do charge a fee to supplement the cost of fire protection. I have no issue with that, I do have a probelm if property and pets are allowed to perish if that fee is late.

 

[johnsontrio]

I'm uncertain of which faction you're refering to, but I can tell you that here in Michigan many services that people relied on for years have gone away and are still going away:

Police protection
Fire protection
Road upkeep
Clean water
Food inspections

The only faction that is responsible for that are the companies who've laid off so many people and are only employing Americans at service-level jobs that pay lower wages so they can rake in their billion dollar profit margins and bonuses for those at the top tier.

Once again, something the majority who post on this WDW vacation board cheer about and support 100%.

What they don't realize is that lower salaries means less income taxes being paid. Less income taxes mean fewer services. No jobs or non-supporting wage jobs means no property taxes being paid. No property taxes being paid means no services. Sure, there may be 10% in the county who can afford the McMansions, but that 10% alone can't support a fully-functional police and fire department, a fully-functional road commission, a fully-functional water system, etc, etc, etc that will protect them.

What we are seeing now is the result of too many of those at the top who's attitude of, "I've got mine and the hell with everyone else" has finally trickled down to where there simply aren't enough taxes to support the public services that protect everyone, rich or poor.

The only reason 1/2 the country doesn't pay income taxes anymore is because their salaries have shrunk to the point where they simply don't make enough to pay taxes. I know the Conservative media is spinning it another way, but them's the facts, ma'am. No money. No taxes. Simple as that.

I am mainly referring to those who view any tax as "bad" and those that are heavily campaigning on the issue of taxes. I have upper middle class friends that celebrate when police millages, etc. get voted down and I have a hard time understanding that. I like my city/county/state services and don't mind paying for them. Certain services I don't use often, but when I need them, I am certainly glad they are there. Can't imagine who everybody thinks should be paying for them if not the citizens they are provided for. Must be more magical thinking.

 

[golfgal]

THis reasoning means that if you are behind on property taxes you and your family are not entitled to the services those taxes provide. WOuld the police refuse to respond to an emergency that was not life threatening? Would your child be tossed off of the school bus? WOuld you be denied access tot he library or the Senior Center?

The guy should have paid the fee but becasue he did not it would have been acceptable to place a lien on his home, much the same as one who has not paid taxes.




How do you know this?



I am not sure that I agree. I know that some towns do charge a fee to supplement the cost of fire protection. I have no issue with that, I do have a probelm if property and pets are allowed to perish if that fee is late.

I suppose you could say that because here if you don't pay your property taxes you lose your house so it doesn't matter any longer.

 

[PlainJane]

I didn't honestly feel like reading the rest of the thread to see if this point had been made, but if I were his neighbor I would be angry with the fire department and my neighbor that hadn't paid the fine. They waited until it was spreading to the neighbor's land to do anything. They could have prevented it from even reaching the second person's land.

I don't see how anyone could morally say it's OK to allow a house to burn of someone who hadn't paid when they know full well that it's risking someone else's land.

 

[golfgal]

The man CHOSE to live in an area without a fire department. The man had a CHOICE to use the services from another town's fire department for $75/year, which breaks down to $1.50/week-one less cup of coffee a week basically. The man CHOSE NOT to pay the $75 and paid the consequences. The fire department has ZERO blame here-heck, the gas to get the trucks to his place probably would be more than $75.

 

[cm8]

Absolutely once you put on that uniform and badge your there to protect and serve you have to take action.

True that!!!:

 

[HelenePA]

Karma usually takes care of stuff like this.. hopefully its not as bad as what they did to this man though.. stood there and watched his house burn down... I gotta get off this thread... it makes me soooo mad.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Two related questions:

If you don't pay your taxes, do the police and fire department not show up if you call them?

How is this any different?

 

[HelenePA]

Two related questions:

If you don't pay your taxes, do the police and fire department not show up if you call them?

How is this any different?

I'm sure a lot of criminals would like it if they didn't. Lets not invistigates anyones death either if they were behind on their taxes.

 

[tlbwriter]

Two related questions:

If you don't pay your taxes, do the police and fire department not show up if you call them?

How is this any different?

It's different because...

(a) Taxes are not a choice. This man had a choice. Actually, he had several choices - he chose to live in an area without its own fire department, he chose not to opt into the available fire protection, and he chose to burn trash outside.

(b) If you do not pay your taxes, they will generally be taken from you, one way or another. You'll lose your house and then it won't be your problem if it burns down.

 

[Becky2005]

My understanding is that the firefighters were required by law to NOT fight this fire, since the fee had not been paid. I'm optimistic enough to believe that they would have gone in if someone's life was in danger. At least, I would HOPE no sane human would stand by and let another lose his life!~

That was my thought -- so if someone was inside the house, they would have just let them burn since they couldn't touch the fire. I would imagine it's hard enough being a Fire Fighter doing all you can and still lose victims to a fire but I can't imagine the feeling if you knowing let the house burn with someone inside and just sat there watching it. Even non trained people have a tendency to rush into burning buildings to try to save people even if it's not very smart to do.

Luckily, our taxes take care of emergency services.

 

[daughtersrus]

I don't understand this?

One of the many articles that I read said that the firefighters are only insured on the properties that they are paid to protect.

NOt even close to being the same thing.

Insurance companies are not in the business of saving lives, fire fighters are.

My understanding is that there were no lives to protect. They were all out.

Because I feel that taxes are collected to provide basic safety services. This almost sounds like "protection money" that one must pay organized crime.

Exactly, so it is protection money, just as DawnCt1 stated. They aren't paying the salary, but if you don't pay up, we won't do anything for you. It is sad.

I don't understand this. The fire dept was from a neighboring community. They are willing to provide the service for a fee because it's not being collected via taxes. The owner chose not to pay. Why should he get the service for free while others are paying either via taxes or the fee?

But, what if someone was inside, he still didn't pay his $75.00. I wonder what would happen then. Would the fire dept still not respond, would you be ok with that?

This fire dept is getting paid by another county from what I understand, send the man a bill, put a lien on his property.

Using this logic, why would anyone opt to pay?

 

[allison443]

I watched an interview with the guy and thought this was interesting.

Mr. Cranick said three years ago his son's house had a fire and even though his son hadn't paid the fee, the fire department did respond and they allowed the fee to be paid the next day. Mr. Cranick said he was the one who went down and paid the fee the next day for his son's house. So maybe he figured he could skip the fee with no consequences?

But then he also said he knew of three or four other houses that were allowed to burn recently because the fee wasn't paid. So you kind of wonder why didn't he make sure he was paid up?

He did say he had insurance thank goodness.

http://www.examiner.com/us-headline...-s-house-burn-pets-die-over-75-00-video-video

 

[HelenePA]

One of the many articles that I read said that the firefighters are only insured on the properties that they are paid to protect.



My understanding is that there were no lives to protect. They were all out.






I don't understand this. The fire dept was from a neighboring community. They are willing to provide the service for a fee because it's not being collected via taxes. The owner chose not to pay. Why should he get the service for free while others are paying either via taxes or the fee?





Using this logic, why would anyone opt to pay?

bill them at an hourly rate.... I was in car accident when I first moved into a new town. I was not a member of the ambulance acc. it didn't mean they didn't transport me to the life flight that was waiting for me or my dd.. I was BILLED almost $1k for a 5mile ride between me and my dd...
this isn't rocket science folks. its helping another human being out who didn't pay the cheaper fee.. here is another point where common sense has gone out the window...

 

[DisneySaver28]

It seems like a lot of posters here are not taking note of a very important part of the story - the man did not live within the city limits. The fire department does not cover this man's property area. They offered their services to the nearby rural areas for a small fee.

To those saying that the firefighters were in the wrong, does your fire department respond to fires in the nearby cities? Would you want your taxes going towards your fire department fighting fires in surrounding cities where they don't pay for fire protection? Or would you rather have your city's firefighters available to protect you and your neighbors (as your taxes are paying them to do)?