What on earth is Disney thinking??

[KNWVIKING]

"Let me try this one more time.. This is NOT about the weather.. "

No,this is about people being irresponsible idiots.

No one is saying this is about the weather, but if it hadn't rained then the parade would have ran on schedule and there would have been no riot. The crowd was not an issue till the rain spoiled their day. Is that cause for a riot ?

What happened back in the good ol' days when MK was packed all summer- to the point of closing access on somedays ? Did they stop running parades because the crowds were large ?

The size of the crowd isn't the problem, it was their attitude.

 

[Val]

and Disney needs to be prepared to deal with the attitudes of people today- whether those attitudes are justified or not. The fact that people act like idiots is not a hidden secret. Disney needs to be prepared because Disney DOES owe us as safe an environment as possible, even given the attitudes of idiots. If Disney knows that parades create crowds, they must be prepared to control the crowds.

There is a tremendous amount of research on crowd behavior. What happened on the 18th does not sound "out of ordinary" for the situation- but it appears Disney was ill-prepared to handle of the situation. A cheap consultant and a little ground work could result in a well-layed out "emergency" plan. I am just very surprised that a large and experienced corporation like Disney was so caught-off-guard. I will yield to the pixie dust and hope that this was an anomaly and not the typical Disney response. If not.....well, I'll spend my money where safety is better valued.

 

[KNWVIKING]

"Disney needs to be prepared because Disney DOES owe us as safe an environment as possible, even given the attitudes of idiots. If Disney knows that parades create crowds, they must be prepared to control the crowds."

But realistically this is easier said then done.

". What happened on the 18th does not sound "out of ordinary" for the situation- but it appears Disney was ill-prepared to handle of the situation."

Does this riot happen often at MK ? This is the first I've heard of one but I'm sure in 30 years there has been other events. It is very difficult to be prepared for a sudden crowd reaction that happens unexpectantly once every blue moon.

I operate a GMC service department. One of the problems is dealing with sudden work overloads. For no ryme or reason dozens of trucks fail all at once. In the perfect world I open the spare technician locker and pull out three or four A techs and put them right to work. Couple weeks later when the work load returns to normal level I put them back in the locker & turn their switch off till I need them again. I my world though, I pull my hair out and drink Malox.

 

[Val]

I agree KNWVIKING!!!! I do lots of consulting on "behavior problems" for a living....I just believe that parades are more of a "predicted" event rather than an unexpected. You would expect LOTS of repairs after a bad storm- and call in extra repair people. You wouldn't expect lots of repairs after an average uneventful day. I wouldn't fault you for the unexpected. I would wonder where your brain was when you had reduced the number of repairment after a storm (note: not DURING the storm.....again, no reasonable person could expect you to get extras then).

I believe Disney was at fault because of their failure to deal with large crowds at an incredibly popular parade. Now, if there was a riot at It's a Small World, that would be unpredictable (think: thousands running for the boats singing loudly). In this day and age, we need to be forward thinkers and not reacters. I know that at my place of employment (a large state university) we DO have contingency events for emergency events- for example dealing with VERY unhappy dorm residents after a false fire alarm. We try and think of the unthinkable to be prepared. I would expect the same of Disney. I will be optimistic and hope that this was a very isolated event. Time will tell!

 

[KNWVIKING]

"I know that at my place of employment (a large state university) we DO have contingency events for emergency events- "

Hopefully you don't work Kent State

 

[Val]

Nope....but in today's budget cuts (another reality gone bad) it sometimes FEELS like it! Our local police are pretty inept at dealing with the college students (maybe that's why I expect more of Disney, I thought they were BETTER than the Normal Police Department, and yes, that's the name of the town!)......

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[B
Does this riot happen often at MK ? This is the first I've heard of one but I'm sure in 30 years there has been other events. It is very difficult to be prepared for a sudden crowd reaction that happens unexpectantly once every blue moon.

[/B]

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But Disney IS aware of this potentially dangerous overcrowding because they have CHOSEN to schedule extremely popular events ONE day a week.. You don't honestly believe that they figure, "Oh yeah - there's a weeks worth of folks visiting Disney World but certainly there won't be any over crowding.. I mean - gosh - probably only a handful will turn out.. It's not like we advertise the living daylights out of these events as something that is NOT to be missed or anything..."

There was nothing "unexpected" about the NUMBERS that were there.. A simple inventory of how many people were passing through the gate every day would have given them a VERY accurate idea of how many would be back to see the parade..

And yes - there are "idiots" no matter what the reason - rain, humidity, mother-in-law getting on ones nerves - whatever - so the bottom line is you could have a dangerous situation erupt at ANY given time in a crowd that large - and one that Disney isn't prepared to handle..

The sad part is the solution is SOOOOOOOOO easy.. Schedule more than ONE event in the span of a week and conceivably cut that mob in half..

As the previous poster pointed out, Disney needs to think ahead - not wait until a tragedy occurs..

 

[Tekneek]

Originally posted by C.Ann
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They (Disney) have cut parades and events to a BARE minimum and THAT in turn has resulted in a situation where these mob scenes could become physically threatening to their patrons.. The parks are already horribly crowded as it is - limit the number of days, nights, or hours that certain events take place and you are going to easily TRIPLE the number of people who will be there for said event - and you've got a MAJOR accident waiting to happen..

I did not get that point, unfortunately. I do agree with this. I think they should keep MK open until at least 9 or 10 PM, with associated parades and fireworks a minimum of 3 nights a week. This way, people won't have to pack in for the once a week event.

If they go with the same schedules they had last year, we aren't going to have a chance to see a night parade or Fantasy In The Sky once during a 7 night stay at WDW in September. Not even once a week during that time.

 

[Tekneek]

Disney does create the tense situation, because they have reduced these events to once a week, or even fewer than that. They lay the groundwork for the problems. However, grown adults are likely the people in the crowd who should know how to behave properly in society, and they are the ones that decide to fly off the handle instead. *They* alone are responsible for their actions, not Disney, or the way they schedule things. Disney may help create the situation, but sensible and responsible people do not escalate matters in a crowd and challenge security. If you are unhappy, talk to Guest Relations about it. If you are staying on property, talk to someone when you get back to your resort. Don't make matters worse by acting like a jerk in the Magic Kingdom. Don't teach your kids that this kind of behavior is ok by demonstrating it in front of them.

While I agree that Disney should not limit these events the way they do, effectively turning them into a negative experience for employees and customers alike, they are not responsible for irrational fools who lose their heads. I wish every one of them had been forced to the ground and cuffed until they could cool off and act like a normal human being should.

 

[Val]

If only Disney WOULD cuff 'em and escort them out....instead the CM's look helpless and out of control of the situation. Example: three years ago after the daytime parade my husband was tripped by individuals trying to hurry out (he was pushing a stroller and NO we were not bumping ankles!). We were walking down the side walk towards the bridge to frontier land and some individuals "jumped" the roped off area and pushed by us. The stroller tipped, my husband cut his knee. Several CM's saw it and took us to first aid where we received wonderful help. On the way, they remarked about how out of control the crowd was, but that their job was just to keep people happy and watch out for injuries......seemed a little backwards. Rather than treating the injuries from an out of control situation (and open the corporation to potential law suits from like-minded "other kinds of idiots") it would seem more logical to develop better traffic flow.

The next year was no better, or the year after that. Now we just avoid the area and stay away from parades. Our choice-our freely made choice. But it still seems that in this day and age Disney should be the EXPERTS at crowd control, not the bumbling idiots.

Interestingly, this DOES seem to be a particularly Magic Kingdom type problem. I agree that Fantastmic and Illuminations have much better crowd control. Given that MK has the highest attendance, I remain very surprised that the corporate powers that be allow this to continue. Guess it WILL take a major law suit to change things. Let's just hope it is a frivilous suit and not a major tragedy.

 

[KNWVIKING]

Take a lookat the average CM. Just everyday plain folk,some kids,some seniors, some in between. They smile,they're polite, courtious, helpful, great people. They hold a little rope as a barrier for rational people, they direct you across the parade route when there is a break. Just a bunch of nice people.

Can you picture them being able to physically control a mob ? Are they intimidating in any way ?Even if there were 2 or 3 times the CM's present, do you think it would have made a difference ? Put yourself in their place. You're making $6.00 an hour to hold a rope. Now a mob is pushing past,ignoring your rope. Are you going to lay it all on the line to prevent this ?

So what is a practical solution. More parades ? Well, at any given parade or event there are crowded areas. Maybe the park population is just average but people are choosing to pack main street so as soon as the parade is over they can get out fast. Bottom line is that prime areas for a parade are always going to be packed. Maybe more parades can ease the overall crowd level, but it won't help deal with the weather or idiots which played a major role (IMO) in this riot.

Do you hire specifically trained, physically intimidating staff of parade "guards" who only work during parades but still have to be paid a full time liveable salary? What resulting cost cuts will be made to finance this expense ?

This situation erupted in a split second and was probably over very fast. Even getting additional CM's from point A to point B thru a crowd this size be ineffective because by the time they got to the scene,the situation would be over.

See, it's easy to say "they should have done something" after the fact, but that "something" is usually easier to say then do.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Val
If only Disney WOULD cuff 'em and escort them out....instead the CM's look helpless and out of control of the situation. Example: three years ago after the daytime parade my husband was tripped by individuals trying to hurry out (he was pushing a stroller and NO we were not bumping ankles!). We were walking down the side walk towards the bridge to frontier land and some individuals "jumped" the roped off area and pushed by us. The stroller tipped, my husband cut his knee. Several CM's saw it and took us to first aid where we received wonderful help. On the way, they remarked about how out of control the crowd was, but that their job was just to keep people happy and watch out for injuries......seemed a little backwards. Rather than treating the injuries from an out of control situation (and open the corporation to potential law suits from like-minded "other kinds of idiots") it would seem more logical to develop better traffic flow.

The next year was no better, or the year after that. Now we just avoid the area and stay away from parades. Our choice-our freely made choice. But it still seems that in this day and age Disney should be the EXPERTS at crowd control, not the bumbling idiots.

Interestingly, this DOES seem to be a particularly Magic Kingdom type problem. I agree that Fantastmic and Illuminations have much better crowd control. Given that MK has the highest attendance, I remain very surprised that the corporate powers that be allow this to continue. Guess it WILL take a major law suit to change things. Let's just hope it is a frivilous suit and not a major tragedy.

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VERY well stated!! You don't need some idiot causing a ruckus in order for injuries to occur.. You need three things:

A large crowd attempting to leave a very congested area with poorly constructed exit routes.

ONE person to trip and fall - which could (and has in other instances at various events) cause a "domino" effect..

And lastly, a company who not only is unprepared for crowd control, but for the sake of a dollar will cram as many human beings into one spot as they possibly can - and then just "hope for the best.."

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
See, it's easy to say "they should have done something" after the fact, but that "something" is usually easier to say then do.

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The something is very, VERY easy.. Don't cram a weeks worth of visitors into the park on ONE night!

There are "crowds" and then there are CROWDS.. There's a big difference - whether you want to acknowledge it or not..

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by C.Ann


The sad part is the solution is SOOOOOOOOO easy.. Schedule more than ONE event in the span of a week and conceivably cut that mob in half..

That wouldn't work for us because we would go see BOTH parades!!!

 

[Another Voice]

Hmmmm....

Isn't it kinda funny that we've been told so many times that the short park hours aren't any problem becuase the small crowds allow everyone to get in a full day at the Magic Kingdom....

...and now where being told that it's not Disney's problem they can't contain the huge crowds swarming the parks and how people fear their children will be trampled.

 

[KNWVIKING]

"There are "crowds" and then there are CROWDS.. There's a big difference - whether you want to acknowledge it or not.."

The crowd at this event can't be any bigger then the crowds MK has experienced in the past. They've had to close the gates in the summer because the park reached max capacity.Were there riots then.Is there a riot everytime a parade is canceled on a hot.crowded,rainy day ?

I just won't defend a riot mentality because of the size of the crowd.

 

[Planogirl]

There used to be a time when you could see Spectromagic every night. If one night seemed too crowded, you could wait until the next night if you wished to. Now it becomes imperitive to see it on that one night. In the past, many people rushed to the popular rides during a parade and some probably just continued to leisurely tour or shop. It was an old trick to (hopefully) find shorter lines and quieter park walkways during this time. Are visitors still doing this? Or are too many of them jamming the parade route whenever Spectromagic is offered on such a limited basis? In other words, could the crowd size still be the same but is it perhaps distributed more along the parade route than before?

And is Disney staff still closing the park at the same crowd level that they used to? Have budget cuts POSSIBLY affected how many people are allowed in the park at any given time? I'm not saying that the cuts have compromised safety, I'm just wondering about these things.

 

[KNWVIKING]

"There used to be a time when you could see Spectromagic every night. If one night seemed too crowded, you could wait until the next night if you wished to. Now it becomes imperitive to see it on that one night. In the past, many people rushed to the popular rides during a parade and some probably just continued to leisurely tour or shop. It was an old trick to (hopefully) find shorter lines and quieter park walkways during this time. Are visitors still doing this? Or are too many of them jamming the parade route whenever Spectromagic is offered on such a limited basis? In other words, could the crowd size still be the same but is it perhaps distributed more along the parade route than before?"

But remember right after 9/11 when the Saudi prince was handing over 10 mill to Mayor Rudy. Then went on to say what a tragedy "but" if the USA hadn't or had done this or that.... about the moment he said "but" the Mayor was tell him to stick his check up his .....

That's the way I feel about rioters. Are crowded parks,hot days and canceled parades ever a reason to justify what happened ?

 

[DisneyKidds]

I agree that this whole "situation" could have been avoided to a great degree if Disney had longer hours and more SpectroMagics - but Disney doesn't want to "get" that. A shame.

That being said.....................

and Disney needs to be prepared to deal with the attitudes of people today- whether those attitudes are justified or not. The fact that people act like idiots is not a hidden secret. Disney needs to be prepared because Disney DOES owe us as safe an environment as possible, even given the attitudes of idiots. If Disney knows that parades create crowds, they must be prepared to control the crowds.

I say it was the guests who were the problem. They should have been more understanding of the situation. The CM had every right to try and keep people from streaming down Main St toward the exit. As far as they knew the parade could have started at any second - and that parade comes down Main Street from the entrance of the park. If any number of inconsiderate guests wanted out because they are tired of waiting or wanted a jump on the mass exodus should the parade be cancelled - they should have used the designated walkways and crosswalks, no matter how slowly they were moving. There is a reason they limit access to Main Street at parade time and it is for the safety of the guests.

 

[Val]

I don't disagree that the rude people "caused" the problem.....I am not completely convinced that having more parades, etc., would automatically help the situation (although I am ALL for that on a personal level)....I do believe Disney needs to be better prepared.

If we take the analogy that it is the rude people's fault, then we must extend the argument: Stores should not train their employees (who generally make around minimum wage) to deal with retail theft- its the rude people's fault that they steal and store clerks shouldn't have to put themselves in a confrontation; we shouldn't teach people defensive driving or to report drunk drivers, because it is the stupid drunk drivers fault and we had better expect them to stop behaving badly; we shouldn't prepare for terrorist attacks because the terrorists are only behaving like bad people and we should expect them to behave better.....and so on and so forth.

The answer is- we must protect customers and clients from the "stupid, rude or inappropriates". That is my issue with Disney in general, and the crowd/traffic control at MK specifically. They are sitting on a ticking time bomb. Yes, the CM's can be taught how to deal with a crowd situation and when to start calling backup (hint: BEFORE you lose control).....unfortunately, I believe that it will take a horrendous event before Disney reacts. On the other hand, I am hoping (praying?) that the terrorist drill the other day was a step in the right direction.