What on earth is Disney thinking??

[crusader]

It's reasonable to assume that sane individuals will act rational during a threatened situation but it never happens. That's because they FEAR for their safety. Once the riot was invoked it caused panic and everybody began to move away from the situation at the same time which caused more panic until it became an uncontrollable mob.

Yes - Disney should have some mechanism in place to mitigate this. They know they could have a potentially dangerous situation whenever a crowd forms. They are experienced with large capacity attendance and frankly miscalculated this one. They got lucky but cannot afford a next time.

I know the premise is that it's because of the parade scheduling. No doubt this was a contributor. Parades are the main reason crowds form in a particular area. I understand the argument that if you just add a few more parades people will gather at various times but do not fully agree. I have often seen spectators gathering in large volumes for parades even if one was offered the day before.

The problem is the crowd got hostile quickly and the CM's were not equipped to manage this.

 

[emmagata]

I've read all the posts so far and reread the reposted report.


I don't believe for one minute that Disney was the catalyst for this situation.

It was the people.

They didn't care to follow some simple rules.

They decided that they would do as they please.

Sure, when it's hot,wet and people have been waiting (some for a long time) they can get cranky.

Who's to say that Disney isn't(wasn't) prepared for this type of situation and they they did what they were supposed to do?

Does anyone here know the inner workings of crowd control that Disney uses?

Perhaps a CM that works the parades might be able to (if they are allowed) to shed some light on this issue.

 

[YesDear]

First let me say that I echo John's previous post.

Let me also say that I was there that night and did not get the feeling of a stampeed.

I have been going to WDW for over 23 yrs and have been during all seasons. It is amazing to me the reactions.

I have seen days that the MK was closed for the crowd and it was not near that crowded then. I did not feel the CM crowd control was any less than it had been. I do not make it a habit to count CM heads while there, but did not feel they were understaffed. You had a crowd of people wet and tired! Some decided not to stay and the crowd mentality took over.

I see far more of a reduction in Disney patron behaivor over the years rather than a reduction in Disney Magic.

I remember when you did not see a trash can emptied in the MK. Empty ones were brought out and replaced the full ones. There are too many people there to do that now.

 

[CWIPPERMAN]

I work for a fairly large metropolitan Police Department. In our city we have an "entertainment district" that becomes the home of thousands of drunks on weekends. For the last several summers, we have had several near-riots at "closing time" when all of the bars empty onto the sidewalks - and everyone wants to stand around socializing. For several years, we have tried to keep the sidewalks moving by having the officers "sweep" folks along ("keep moving please"), and by having a huge police presence. This has resulted in many "incidents" between the police and drunken idiots. All it seems to takes one or two to start yelling or pushing a cop - and all hell breaks loose. Or the inevitable fight breaks out somewhere and when we head to the scene to break it up, hundreds of folks gather to see what's happening.

This year, we have tried a "hands-off" approach. When they crowd onto the sidewalk or street - we let them stay there (the streets are blocked off to traffic) until they move along. Sometimes we will have folks standing around talking for 2 or 3 hours after the bars are closed. This has resulted in less incidents and complaints from the public.

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes the "saturation" approach (lots of security/cops/CM's) is not the best approach for handling a huge crowd. The Original Poster said that "a guy walked up to CM and started complaining" (or something to that effect). In other words.... it only takes one or two folks to incite a crowd. I think that by keeping a small number of CM's, you lower the risk of folks feeling threatened or agressive when they get upset. I think Disney knows this and knows that when you put more CM's on the street - you increase the tension level and escalate the potential for conflict (you may have seen this a lot in the news lately where cops go into a "hot zone" where rioting has occured. They "grab & go" - or handle the situation and get out - instead of bringing a huge police presense into the area).

As far as the complaints of "too few parades or shows". I agree with this to an extent. Last year, my vacation was from Sunday to Friday. The only spectro that week was on Saturday. If Disney would have had a Spectro on Wednesday for example then all of the folks (like ourselves) who were there just for the week would have crowded that show. If my reading on this board is correct - Saturday's are the most crowded at MK. This is probably because a lot more "locals" come to MK Saturday. So to insinuate that an additional parade during the week would be any less crowded than one on a weekend is flawed. It is just that the "mid-week" vacationers would make it a point to visit on a day of the show - and all of the resort guests who wouldn't be there on a weekend would visit on the day of the show. I would venture to guess that you would have the same crowds for a mid-week show that you would have on a weekend show (did that make any sense.... I know what I'm trying to say - but I'm not sure if I can make sense).

Anyway.... I'm all for adding additional show times for Spectro, but that may not necessarily solve the problem of overcrowding.

And, by the way. This year, we arrive on a Saturday afternoon. Our main priority will be to get to MK in time to watch the parade and fireworks.

 

[Tekneek]

We happen to be arriving on the Saturday that "Night of Joy" is on, so there is no Spectromagic or Fantasy In The Sky for that night. The next Saturday there was nothing last year, so I anticipate there being nothing this time. It seems odd to me that you could be at WDW for a week anytime of the year and not be able to see at least one night parade and fireworks.

While the parades may be just as crowded, there will be less of the pressure to 'see it now' if they happened at least twice a week. If things were not working out, and you had the chance to return on Wednesday, you'd be better prepared to walk away from it than stand and fight about it.

 

[ztbz]

In order for to get changes to be made at Walt Disney World, you need to write letters not only to Walt Disney World in Florida but also to the Walt Disney Company Head-Quarters in Burbank CA.

I know for a fact that staffing at Walt Disney World was Reduced or Cut-back in May 2003 at each Department in all areas at WDW in order to save money on Labor Costs, and is why the parks are not open as late as they use to be in the summer & with Fewer Parades & Shows, as well as having Slow-Service at the Attractions, Restaurants, Gift Shops and Transportation to Disney Hotels.

 

[CWIPPERMAN]

To add a little irony to my post above about the problems we have with our "Entertainment District". Last night (several hours after I posted the above thread about the problems we have there) as the bars were letting out, 3 people were stabbed..... one fatally. Now of course this is a bar setting, but the biggest problem is that when all of the officers tried to respond, the crowd wanted to gather around to see what was going on. This made it much more difficult for officers & medical personnel to respond.

It is a sobering reminder of how quickly the "mob-mentality" can turn dangerous.

 

[Snow Brite]

When we were there last May, there was only one day during a 12 day stay that had Spectro and the fireworks and it was a Saturday. There were so very many people in the park it really was impossible. We were going to wait for the second parade but the streets and walkways became clogged with people staking out spots and so we gave up and staked out our own about 1 1/2 hours before the parade. Our spot was third row at this point. I knew it was a waste of time, but there was really no way to move around. We were in about the same spot, where Main Street joins the hub and they rope off the part of the hub where the parade does not go.

It was miserable. There were SO many people trying to wait, trying to walk, trying to move strollers. A lady in a wheelchair wanted to use the ramp right there and it took nearly 5 minutes to get everyone shuffled to get her through. Then a stream of people started moving along behind her and everyone with a staked out spot had to restake their spot or lose it to traffic.

We watched the parade and enjoyed what we could see. Then came the really scary part. Lots of people who had seen the parade wanted to also see the fireworks and moved into the hub to see them, where the parade had been. Other people just wanted to leave the park and were trying to walk, where other people were waiting. It ended up with one narrow stream of people about 1 person wide snaking through the street full of standing people. There was much snarling and general peevishness when people stopped to make sure the rest of their party was with them and held up the line, had trouble moving a stroller through, etc. I was seriously looking for a way out with my two kids at all times as I was never sure when it was going to go bad. Eventually everyone who wanted to be somewhere else got there and the fireworks started. Then everyone left and we had terrific front row seats with no crowding for the second parade.

It truly was a bit scary for me as people did get quite cranky. And in my opinion they were cranky with good reason. There were WAY too many people in WAY too small a space. And those that wanted to leave could not. If you were on a tight schedule (trying to catch a bus that was leaving, etc.) and had not realized what would happen (as we did not) it could be a panicky thing. There also seemed a HUGE potential for parties to get seperated. And if anyone had gone down in that it would have been serious.

Just my opinion of what I saw. And that was a night without rain or a cancellation of the parade.

 

[Uncleromulus]

--all of which is why I try to avoid crowds, whenever and wherever found.
I went to an evening MK parade just once in all my years at WDW--and won't ever go again. No real trouble mind you--just constant pushing, shoving, cursing, etc as everybody and their brother tried to get the best seat in the house and follow the parade as it made it way along the route. And this was well before any cutbacks, etc.--just a normal parade evening. But how to avoid that sort of thing?? Probably impossible, unless you apply a "seperate ticket" for that kind of event. Otherwise anybody and everybody in the park is a potential part of the "crowd".

Crowd "management" and crowd "control" are probably 2 different things. I can hardly imagine any Disney CM getting "rough" with a paying customer in a crowd situation. Tear gas?? Rubber bullets?? Pepper spray?? Of course not. But smiles and kind words would have no effect either. I think discretion is the better part of valor and I'm in agreement with Cwipperman. Less is probably better, especially if you aren't REALLY prepared to back things up with any sort of physical force.

In this case I suppose the "best" solution would have been to give up and just let the crowd go and leave the Park.
Too bad tho--people acting like idiots can sure ruin what might have been a good time.

 

[Val]

The real solution, beyond the scope of the CM's or guests, is an alternative exit out of the parks...this really helps with fantasmic. Several exits, and I know at least one time where we were lead by CMs through the backstage area to exit to the front of the park thus missing the hordes of people leaving. MK needs a similar solution. Given the reports of huge crowds, hot weather and limited parades/fireworks, mangagment is sitting on a ticking time bomb. People do get irrational (humans aren't actually the most rational animals- we just think we are!).....and management needs to be a step ahead. I just hope that it won't take someone getting seriously hurt to change the traffic flow. I think that my family will stay AWAY from parades and fireworks at MK this year. We've been before, and as much as we love the events it is not worth risking our safety.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Uncleromulus
[
Crowd "management" and crowd "control" are probably 2 different things. I can hardly imagine any Disney CM getting "rough" with a paying customer in a crowd situation. Tear gas?? Rubber bullets?? Pepper spray?? Of course not. But smiles and kind words would have no effect either. I think discretion is the better part of valor and I'm in agreement with Cwipperman. Less is probably better, especially if you aren't REALLY prepared to back things up with any sort of physical force.

This type of situation is not for the average CM that also sells cokes. Disney employs security for these reasons. They also have several types. From uniformed to undercover to those watching the security cameras. If need be Disney could easily have had uniformed security handle a situation. Often the presents of security will calm a situation. Especially if said security has a some beef to it.

 

[Uncleromulus]

I've seen some security folks over at Pleasure Island with some "beef" to them, but the average "dressed in blue" Disney Security CM's probably aren't able, willing, or even trained, to do battle with a raucous crowd. And I doubt Disney would ever want them doing so..especially in the MK!! Can you imagine the news headlines the next day??

Drunks and other riff-raff regularly "act out" over at PI, but the MK is filled (no pun intended) with families who are sober (hopefully) and there just to see a parade.

So I don't see an awsome security presence doing much to alleviate the situation. Not really sure if a true solution is possible give the nature of the beast. Certainly Disney should give it some further thought, and maybe alternate exits, more parades, etc may provide some easing of the situation.

 

[EUROPA]

I'm not talking about doing battle...but they have the ability if need be I'm sure. Any time that you have large crowds of people there is always a danger of things getting out of hand. This is nothing-new to today society, as many people posting here would have you think. More exits are not the answer. Have multiple exits really decreases security. Especially if you are searching for a subject. Having one way out and one way in also facilitates closing the park. (I’m sure the learned their lesson with Epcot.) Typically people on vacation are not looking for a reason to riot or cause trouble. When it comes to the point that the person is so upset with the CM currently telling them “NO” or halting their progress the CM must either yield or bring in someone else like security. Just the presents of someone in authority or anyone else at that point will cause them to back down.

 

[Planogirl]

Whether it's the fault of the patrons or not, crowds do get unruly sometimes. This is true particularly when it's hot and over-crowded. Disney has a responsibility to keep the crowds under control as best they can to protect their property, CM's and the innocent patrons. The question becomes how best to do this?

I definitely feel for the CM's that have to deal with all of this. Disneyland can be difficult too. I recall arguing with a CM who would not let us into a certain area even though we had reservations at the Blue Bayou. I found another route and didn't get nasty as tempting as it was.

 

[vellamint]

Well after two evenings on two separate vacations in the Magic Kingdom....one trying to see the Electrical Parade in 2000 and one just trying to see FIS in 2002 (not to mention the horrendous wait for the ferry in 95 degree heat with kids small enough to be suffocated in the pressing crowd) my family will, unfortunately, not even attempt to see Spectromagic if it is only offered on a Saturday night.

We just wont deal with it anymore......

 

[DaveO]

The one thing I do not like about these boards is that the folks who are not happy with Disney bash them at any moment for every little thing. And the 'Every thing is pixie dust' crowd says everything is fine.

FACT (accoording to Disney web site):

For the time period this 'incident' happened - I refuse to use the word 'riot' From June 14 - 30 (17 days) they had 14 showings of Spectro - That is hardly ONCE A WEEK. And that does not countany that might have been added due to crowd levels.

I do not agree with shorter hours but folks are just exagerating ...
The truth is always in the middle ....
And if it continuies I will not go back and tell Disney about that fact.

Ok back to lurking ....

Dave O.

God bless America and the Constitution - We just need to follow it !!!!