What is "terrorism"?

[markmymark]

ccpersian-dot-blogspot-dot-com

If you watch TV and read the daily paper, it seems anyone against US policies is called "terrorist".

But terrorism is best defined as intentional targeting of civilians (or the threat of doing so) for political ends.

Arab civilians killed as a result of US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, outnumbers those killed as a result of "terrorist" attacks on US. In fact, in the last few weeks only, over 1000 Iraqis have been killed.

The difference: US forces DO NOT intentionally kill civilians.

So the "intention" is of paramount importance in defining terrorism.

When Hezbollah captured and killed Israeli soldiers, they could not be called terrorists (yet they were called so). Their targets were not civilians. Later, when they sent rockets into Israel, their actions could be called "terrorism" but I am not sure.

You see, they did not really have much intelligence (almost none) so they did not target anything but mainly fired rockets in hopes they would do damage. Many rockets landed in forests and trees.

Israel, on the other hand, did not target civilians. Yet 20 times more civilians were killed in Lebanon than in Israel (about 50 vs over a 1000).

I wonder if using inaccurate weapons or ones that have widespread effects could be called terrorism. For instance, if Israel dropped a bomb on a building that held Hezbollah fighters, that would not be terrorism. But what if some civilians in the surrounding buildings were killed as a result. It was not "intentional" and yet, the bomber knew well that bomb would cause extensive damage.

Israel later claimed that it had warned the residents to leave, yet understandably that is said easier than done. The elderly, and the ill can not just get up and move. In addition, many of the roads were destroyed.

Dershowitz, who equates criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, suggested that civilians who aided Hezbollah fighters should not be regarded as civilians. He talked about degrees of civilian-ness.

Of course, this is a terrible ideology. This is the same type of ideology that Bin Laden could use when justifying the killing of 9/11 victims. They worked in the Twin Towers, and they were linked with Globalism, US imperialism, and US military in Saudi Arabia (to protect US interest such as OIL, Bin Laden's primary complaint). Victims in the towers were the "wheels" of the machine that was trying to take over the Holy Land, Saudi Arabia. The people in the planes were "collateral damage". Interestingly, over a dozen Muslims were amongst the 9/11 victims.

--------------

Terrorism has become the new communism. It used to be Russians and now it's Arabs and Muslims. People are being tortured, getting black listed...

Racism is running amok and any explanation of the roots of "terror" is being seen as justification.

In my view, whenever an open discussion of topic is not allowed, we are headed in the wrong direction.

All the "axis of evil" talk, the "us versus them" fallacy (a favorite of Bush), are used to intimidate people into conforming.

A clear understanding of "terrorism" is needed unless we are to fight 1.4 billion Muslims, and in the process, create more terror, anger, and frustration in Islamic world (even in US), encourage more terrorist recruitment in Arabic countries (probably that is happening in Iraq now), and possibly start a WWIII.

 

[Charade]

 

[Kendra17]

ccpersian-dot-blogspot-dot-com

If you watch TV and read the daily paper, it seems anyone against US policies is called "terrorist".

But terrorism is best defined as intentional targeting of civilians (or the threat of doing so) for political ends.

Arab civilians killed as a result of US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, outnumbers those killed as a result of "terrorist" attacks on US. In fact, in the last few weeks only, over 1000 Iraqis have been killed.

The difference: US forces DO NOT intentionally kill civilians.

So the "intention" is of paramount importance in defining terrorism.

When Hezbollah captured and killed Israeli soldiers, they could not be called terrorists (yet they were called so). Their targets were not civilians. Later, when they sent rockets into Israel, their actions could be called "terrorism" but I am not sure.

You see, they did not really have much intelligence (almost none) so they did not target anything but mainly fired rockets in hopes they would do damage. Many rockets landed in forests and trees.

Israel, on the other hand, did not target civilians. Yet 20 times more civilians were killed in Lebanon than in Israel (about 50 vs over a 1000).

I wonder if using inaccurate weapons or ones that have widespread effects could be called terrorism. For instance, if Israel dropped a bomb on a building that held Hezbollah fighters, that would not be terrorism. But what if some civilians in the surrounding buildings were killed as a result. It was not "intentional" and yet, the bomber knew well that bomb would cause extensive damage.

Israel later claimed that it had warned the residents to leave, yet understandably that is said easier than done. The elderly, and the ill can not just get up and move. In addition, many of the roads were destroyed.

Dershowitz, who equates criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, suggested that civilians who aided Hezbollah fighters should not be regarded as civilians. He talked about degrees of civilian-ness.

Of course, this is a terrible ideology. This is the same type of ideology that Bin Laden could use when justifying the killing of 9/11 victims. They worked in the Twin Towers, and they were linked with Globalism, US imperialism, and US military in Saudi Arabia (to protect US interest such as OIL, Bin Laden's primary complaint). Victims in the towers were the "wheels" of the machine that was trying to take over the Holy Land, Saudi Arabia. The people in the planes were "collateral damage". Interestingly, over a dozen Muslims were amongst the 9/11 victims.

--------------

Terrorism has become the new communism. It used to be Russians and now it's Arabs and Muslims. People are being tortured, getting black listed...

Racism is running amok and any explanation of the roots of "terror" is being seen as justification.

In my view, whenever an open discussion of topic is not allowed, we are headed in the wrong direction.

All the "axis of evil" talk, the "us versus them" fallacy (a favorite of Bush), are used to intimidate people into conforming.

A clear understanding of "terrorism" is needed unless we are to fight 1.4 billion Muslims, and in the process, create more terror, anger, and frustration in Islamic world (even in US), encourage more terrorist recruitment in Arabic countries (probably that is happening in Iraq now), and possibly start a WWIII.

Hezbollah wouldn't let the civilians (who wanted to leave the area) go. This has been a common tactic with these terrorist groups-- fire on innocent civilians and when they get bombed in retaliation, they call foul.

Also, bin Laden's primary complaint is that we are the infidel and The Great Satan. It isn't "Globalism, US imperialism, and US military in Saudi Arabia"-- nor it is our support of Israel (although these are indeed issues). Bin Laden and all the other Islamist Jihadists perpetuate these attacks because we deny that Muhammed is the final true prophet of God--we deny that Islam is the one true religion.

 

[L107ANGEL]

Quit hogging the couch!

 

[markmymark]

Hezbollah wouldn't let the civilians (who wanted to leave the area) go. This has been a common tactic with these terrorist groups-- fire on innocent civilians and when they get bombed in retaliation, they call foul.

Also, bin Laden's primary complaint is that we are the infidel and The Great Satan. It isn't "Globalism, US imperialism, and US military in Saudi Arabia"-- nor it is our support of Israel (although these are indeed issues). Bin Laden and all the other Islamist Jihadists perpetuate these attacks because we deny that Muhammed is the final true prophet of God--we deny that Islam is the one true religion.

Thank you for your response.

The "Great Satan" rhetoric was used by Khomeini, and probably still used in Iran. I suppose it's Bush's "axis of evil" versus Iranian extremists' "Great Satan".

I have read Bin Laden's speeches and monologues on the web. He seems primarily concerned with presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia. He is mainly a nationalist...or even a Fascist (according to Bush...I sort of agree).

According to Robert Pape of University of Chicago (from Wikipedia)

Pape claims to have compiled the world’s first “database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 — 315 attacks in all” (3). “The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. . . . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland” (4). It is important that Americans understand this growing phenomenon (4-7).

 

[Kendra17]

For Muslims, one of the primary sources of biographical material on Muhammed is Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah. Margin note 583 and 484 state

Muhammed is to encourage war and lead the believers to war. With Allah, 20 Muslims can kill and vanquish 200 of the non-Muslims. The unbelievers are ignorant and easily defeated by jihad. Take no prisoners until Islam has made all submit. Submission of the non-believers is all that matters.

Would you be stating some of the things you are stating if the Muslims' desired outcome (200 non-Muslims killed for every 20 Muslims-- or 20 non-Muslims for every 2) was the actual outcome? Would you be as 'confused' about the disproportionate number of victims?

 

[Kendra17]

According to Robert Pape of University of Chicago (from Wikipedia)

Pape claims to have compiled the world’s first “database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 — 315 attacks in all” (3). “The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. . . . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland” (4). It is important that Americans understand this growing phenomenon (4-7).

Others would disagree with Pape, markmymark. If this were true, then other cultures besides Islamic culture would be using the 'tactic' of suicide bombing. The reason it is accepted in Islam is because it is considered a ticket to heaven to die while committing Jihad. And, suicide bombing against infidels is jihadist tactic. They die martyrs, and their surviving family members also gain an edge on judgment day.

 

[markmymark]

For Muslims, one of the primary sources of biographical material on Muhammed is Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah. Margin note 583 and 484 state

Would you be stating some of the things you are stating if the Muslims' desired outcome (200 non-Muslims killed for every 20 Muslims-- or 20 non-Muslims for every 2) was the actual outcome? Would you be as 'confused' about the disproportionate number of victims?

Surely 9/11 attacks comes to mind. Only 19 people killed nearly 3,000. This was intentional, a brutal killing, vengeful, intelligently and patiently planned.

Now to your quote. If Muslims wanted to kill all "infidels", then why are there 20,000 Jews living in Iran. Why haven't they been killed? Wikipedia states there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. Should they not be killing every infidel that they know of?

How come Muslims live in US, Uk, Canada, etc, in peace?

Surely you are not going to use the actions of few people and generalize to many. Koran has many interpretations and in the past, it was necessary for Muslims to fight idol-worshipping Arabs. Jews and Christians of the past were also quite different than the ones now.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Quit hogging the couch!

Move over sister my butt needs more room.

 

[markmymark]

Others would disagree with Pape, markmymark. If this were true, then other cultures besides Islamic culture would be using the 'tactic' of suicide bombing. The reason it is accepted in Islam is because it is considered a ticket to heaven to die while committing Jihad. And, suicide bombing against infidels is jihadist tactic. They die martyrs, and their surviving family members also gain an edge on judgment day.

Don't forget Hezbollah handing out cash to family members, either

Also, terrorism HAS been used by non-Muslims...I am not sure specifically about "suicide terrorism". Pape has some examples of Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) as non-Muslim suicide terrorists.

Edit:

I found some examples of non-Islamic terrorism in Wikipedia by LTTE:

The LTTE is a group fighting for a separate Tamil state in Sri Lanka. It is banned as a terrorist organization by the United States, the European Union, Canada, India and a number of other countries.

1984
30.11.84 Dollar Farm Vavuniya LTTE cadres shot dead 33 Sinhalese civilians and injured several others[1][2].

30.11.84 Kent FarmVavuniya LTTE cadres shot dead 29 Sinhalese civilians [3][4].

01.12.84 Kokilai/Nayaru Vavuniya LTTE cadres shot dead 11 Sinhalese civilians .[5]

1985
14.05.85 Anuradhapura Armed terrorists invaded town and shot dead 146 Sinhalese civilians and injured 85 others. This included pilgrims who were inside the sacred Sri Maha Bodhi premises[6].

14.05.85 Vilpattu Anuradhapura LTTE cadres shot dead 18 Sinhalese civilians in the forest reserve[7].

11.06.85 Dehiwatta Mutur 13 Sinhalese civilians shot dead by armed LTTE terrorists[8].

02.08.85 Thrikonamadu Polonnaruwa LTTE cadres shot dead three Sinhalese Buddhist monks and three civilians at Ruhunu Somavathiya Temple [9].

14.08.85 Awarantalawa Vavuniya LTTE cadres shot dead 7 Sinhalese civilians and set fire to 40 houses[10].

18.08.85 Namalwatta Trincomalee LTTE cadres shot dead six Sinhalese villagers[11].

07.11.85 Namalwatta Morawewa, Tco. LTTE cadres shot dead 10 Sinhalese villagers[12].

20.12.85 Mannar Six Madhu pilgrims, abducted by LTTE terrorists on 12.12.85, were executed[13].

....

 

[Kendra17]

Surely 9/11 attacks comes to mind. Only 19 people killed nearly 3,000. This was intentional, a brutal killing, vengeful, intelligently and patiently planned.

Now to your quote. If Muslims wanted to kill all "infidels", then why are there 20,000 Jews living in Iran. Why haven't they been killed? Wikipedia states there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. Should they not be killing every infidel that they know of?

How come Muslims live in US, Uk, Canada, etc, in peace?

Surely you are not going to use the actions of few people and generalize to many. Koran has many interpretations and in the past, it was necessary for Muslims to fight idol-worshipping Arabs. Jews and Christians of the past were also quite different than the ones now.

Your "point" is irrelevant. Jews have been living there since biblical times, since 6th century bce. Since the time of the First Temple. Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against in Iran consistently, are not permitted to support Israel and many Jews outside of Iran believe that the remaining Jews are afraid to leave and speak about their dissatisfaction and lack of freedom in Iran. Of course, they deny this. They do live in dhimmitude, however. The Jewish schools now are controlled by Muslims-- they even have Muslim principals. The material the Jewish children are taught has to be approved by Muslims and the curriculum is Islamic. They are Jewish schools because Jews are segregated-- not because the schools teach Judaism. Additionally, Jews are no longer permitted to celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday as they believe God commanded. The children MUST attend school on Saturday. Jews live in a condition of dhimmitude, markmymark. There are no rabbis in the 3 remaining synagogues in Iran, markmymark. There is no rabbi to lead prayer. In 1998, Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh, a jew, was killed for helping Jews emigrate from Iran.

There used to be 4.5 million Jews in Germany before WWII. Now there are less.

 

[Kendra17]

I went to an interesting lecture this week. Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist who wrote the book, "Why I left Jihad", and Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebanese Christian who spent her youth living in a bomb shelter with her parents (from age 10-17), while the Muslims waged war. She wrote, "Because they Hate". Both books are excellent, although Shoebat's is written from a Christian perspective, and I wouldn't recommend it unless one is Christian or doesn't mind the references.

Anyways, during Walid's speech, he told us that in Europe, during demonstrations, the Muslims often wear tshirts with the number 2012 emblazoned across their chests. This is the year they estimate they will have a majority of Muslims in Europe. Maybe that's why they live in relative peace there. THose that wear these tshirts seem to believe it's only a matter of time.

 

[markmymark]

Your "point" is irrelevant. Jews have been living there since biblical times, since 6th century bce. Since the time of the First Temple. Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against in Iran consistently, are not permitted to support Israel and many Jews outside of Iran believe that the remaining Jews are afraid to leave and speak about their dissatisfaction and lack of freedom in Iran. Of course, they deny this. They do live in dhimmitude, however. The Jewish schools now are controlled by Muslims-- they even have Muslim principals. The material the Jewish children are taught has to be approved by Muslims and the curriculum is Islamic. They are Jewish schools because Jews are segregated-- not because the schools teach Judaism. Additionally, Jews are no longer permitted to celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday as they believe God commanded. The children MUST attend school on Saturday. Jews live in a condition of dhimmitude, markmymark. There are no rabbis in the 3 remaining synagogues in Iran, markmymark. There is no rabbi to lead prayer. In 1998, Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh, a jew, was killed for helping Jews emigrate from Iran.

There used to be 4.5 million Jews in Germany before WWII. Now there are less.

My "point" was not irrelevant. You spoke of killings and I replied that few Muslims who kill do not represent all.

Secondly, surely Jews are under a lot of pressure in Iran. Who isn't!? There is no freedom of speech for the general population, be it Jew or Muslim or Kurd. The government does not want to be questioned by anyone, period. It's dictatorial.

Unfortunately, in supposed democracies such as Israel, there is no equality either. Arabs and Muslims repeatedly complain about various forms of racism in Israel, be it loans from government or freedom of expression.

From Wikipedia:

Examples of what the State Department report found include the following:

According to the report, Muslims enjoy full freedom of religion and government "did not affect the rights of Muslims to practice their faith" according to "Legislation enacted in 1961 afforded the Muslim courts exclusive jurisdiction to rule in matters of personal status concerning Muslims. Secular courts have primacy over questions of inheritance, but parties, by mutual agreement, may bring cases to religious courts. Muslims, since 2001, also have the right to bring matters such as alimony and property division associated with divorce cases to civil courts in family-status matters."
"According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail."
"government spending on children was proportionally lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas. ... According to the Government's February 2002 report to the U.N., government investment per Arab pupil was approximately 60 percent of investment per Jewish pupil. ... According to Human Rights Watch, during the year, the Government provided 1 teacher for every 16 Jewish primary school children compared to 1 teacher for every 19.7 Arab children." (Note: Human Rights Watch has over the years been accused by Israel government supporters of having an anti-Israel bias.)
"The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report ... stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"

 

[markmymark]

I went to an interesting lecture this week. Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist who wrote the book, "Why I left Jihad", and Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebanese Christian who spent her youth living in a bomb shelter with her parents (from age 10-17), while the Muslims waged war. She wrote, "Because they Hate". Both books are excellent, although Shoebat's is written from a Christian perspective, and I wouldn't recommend it unless one is Christian or doesn't mind the references.

Anyways, during Walid's speech, he told us that in Europe, during demonstrations, the Muslims often wear tshirts with the number 2012 emblazoned across their chests. This is the year they estimate they will have a majority of Muslims in Europe. Maybe that's why they live in relative peace there. THose that wear these tshirts seem to believe it's only a matter of time.

I don't know how the credible the words of a "former PLO terrorist" are! I have to verify this, I have never heard of it.

Regardless, surely Fundamentalists would like to spread Islam, and have been rather successful so far. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. One of my friends has been encouraged to become Christian by a well-meaning young man. Nothing wrong with that. Freedom of ideas...It is the method, the violence, that people generally oppose. However, on a daily basis we are bombarded with messages intended to change our mind (hint...advertisement and media propaganda). That's life.

 

[ChrisFL]

Im going to ignore Kendra17 (as usual).

Im glad this question was raised.

What is "terrorism"?

A.) The killing of civilians specifically by groups as the means to an end, whether its political, religious, etc.
B.) A label placed on those who dissent with radical views on the obstruction of civil liberties
C.) A word used frequently to promote fear in a population, in order to scare said population into agreeing to radical changes in laws, in turn helping those in power gain more power
D.) All of the above.

 

[markmymark]

Im going to ignore Kendra17 (as usual).

Im glad this question was raised.

What is "terrorism"?

A.) The killing of civilians specifically by groups as the means to an end, whether its political, religious, etc.
B.) A label placed on those who dissent with radical views on the obstruction of civil liberties
C.) A word used frequently to promote fear in a population, in order to scare said population into agreeing to radical changes in laws, in turn helping those in power gain more power
D.) All of the above.

Now we're getting somewhere

 

[Charade]

Im going to ignore Kendra17 (as usual).

Im glad this question was raised.

What is "terrorism"?

A.) The killing of civilians specifically by groups as the means to an end, whether its political, religious, etc.
B.) A label placed on those who dissent with radical views on the obstruction of civil liberties
C.) A word used frequently to promote fear in a population, in order to scare said population into agreeing to radical changes in laws, in turn helping those in power gain more power
D.) All of the above.

 

[Teejay32]

I have read Bin Laden's speeches and monologues on the web. He seems primarily concerned with presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia. He is mainly a nationalist...or even a Fascist (according to Bush...I sort of agree).

With him it's probably all about oil.

 

[Kendra17]

My "point" was not irrelevant. You spoke of killings and I replied that few Muslims who kill do not represent all.

Secondly, surely Jews are under a lot of pressure in Iran. Who isn't!? There is no freedom of speech for the general population, be it Jew or Muslim or Kurd. The government does not want to be questioned by anyone, period. It's dictatorial.

Unfortunately, in supposed democracies such as Israel, there is no equality either. Arabs and Muslims repeatedly complain about various forms of racism in Israel, be it loans from government or freedom of expression.

From Wikipedia:

Examples of what the State Department report found include the following:

According to the report, Muslims enjoy full freedom of religion and government "did not affect the rights of Muslims to practice their faith" according to "Legislation enacted in 1961 afforded the Muslim courts exclusive jurisdiction to rule in matters of personal status concerning Muslims. Secular courts have primacy over questions of inheritance, but parties, by mutual agreement, may bring cases to religious courts. Muslims, since 2001, also have the right to bring matters such as alimony and property division associated with divorce cases to civil courts in family-status matters."
"According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail."
"government spending on children was proportionally lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas. ... According to the Government's February 2002 report to the U.N., government investment per Arab pupil was approximately 60 percent of investment per Jewish pupil. ... According to Human Rights Watch, during the year, the Government provided 1 teacher for every 16 Jewish primary school children compared to 1 teacher for every 19.7 Arab children." (Note: Human Rights Watch has over the years been accused by Israel government supporters of having an anti-Israel bias.)
"The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report ... stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"

Arabs have the choice of 55 Arab countries in which to live. Some having more stringent Sharia controls than others. The Jewish state has a sizable Arab population. You may recall Arab-Israelis were given the option of which passport they would like to have-- Israeli or Jordanian. They all chose Israeli. Your criticism of Israel's treatment of the Arabs is absurd becasue if the Arabs are unhappy, they are welcome to leave and live in any other Arab country. But, they do not leave. Israel is kinder to its Arab minority than Arab and Persian oligarchies and tyrannies are to their own people. You take petty criticism and explode it and make it much greater in importance than it truly is. As before, any Arab that lives in Israel can leave. Jews in Iran, for instance, do NOT have the freedom of travel and they do NOT have the right to speak freely to foreign journalists to tell their stories. If ever a minority was in desperate straits, the Jews in Iran fit the bill.

Jews in Germany during the rise of Hitler were in very similar circumstances.

Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail.

"Human Rights activists" are notoriously anti-Israel. I do not believe the conclusion that your false logic is trying to lead me to. Arabs are not more likely to be convicted of any crime in Israel simply because they are Arab. I do believe, however, that they are more likely to perpetrate such crimes in Israel.

 

[markmymark]

With him it's probably all about oil.

Man, come to think of it, maybe we should just burn all the oil in the Middle East and be done with it.

Then Arab Sheikhs will have to get off their *** and start working instead of sitting on oil money, and maybe US will stop interfering in Middle East politics and also develop a new source of energy.

Oh yeah, it reminds me, I have to put some sweet sweet gas in my SUV