What do you think about this statement?

[luvsJack]

I don't think it's accurate to say that people will say what they want and not care if you are insulted. It's not about insulting you or anyone else. It's accurately describing how they feel. So I will say it this way.

I will make whatever statement or comparison that I find is appropriate and accurate when describing my beliefs (or lack of belief) even if it may offend someone.

Yeah, that I can live with.

Why? Why is it so important that it be ok to offend someone? That is not standing firm in your beliefs; that is being disrespectful.

 

[Goofyluver]

Goofyluver, No one has to compromise anything to be respectful. When did I ask you to compromise your beliefs? I was speaking of a phrase, a few words. Your whole belief system is built on "God is a fairy tale"? Wow.

I keep seeing threads that ask "what is wrong with today's youth". Well, here you go. Lack of respect of others and their feelings, their rights and their beliefs.

It's pretty clear to me who's trying to be disrespectful here.

As I said earlier, we must never compromise our belief system for the benefit of others.

 

[glitterkittyy]

Maybe its a Southern thing, but there are many events that include prayers and ds and his friends like to attend the school functions of their younger siblings, sporting events and the like. I am proud of the fact that I have raised my son to be respectful of beliefs other than his own. As for our friend, he is secure in what he believes and what he does. He knows in his heart that he is not placing anything before God and out of respect for those around him and, in the past few years, out of respect to the many friends they have in the military he stands and removes his hat. He does not sing the anthem or say the pledge, but stands quietly. All southerners remove their hat as a show of respect ( I would assume that is the case anywhere, but just clarifying that it is not a salute)

It is my opinion that you have to be secure in yourself to be able to show that kind of respect to the beliefs of others. It is those who are not secure who must speak badly of those of other religions or of no religion at all. Who come up with wild rumors of what others believe or act afraid of what others believe. And to completely be disrespectful and insulting? Can't be too secure.

I grew up in the bible belt. I know all about public prayer being the norm even when it shouldn't be (public school meetings, city council meetings, etc). What you consider respect, I consider compromising my beliefs. I am not going to bow my head during prayer because I want no one to assume that I believe in something I do not. It's not disrespecting your beliefs; it's respecting my own above all else.

There is nothing wrong with staying true to your convictions especially if you're in the minority and are looked down upon by others (which is often done at said events). I'm not ashamed to stay true to myself and take the heat that goes with it.

 

[glitterkittyy]

Why? Why is it so important that it be ok to offend someone? That is not standing firm in your beliefs; that is being disrespectful.

Where did I say I would go out of my way to try to be disrespectful or offensive? I said I would answer honestly even if someone doesn't like the answer or if it offends them.

It's like the old saying goes...You can't please all of the people all of the time, only some of the people some of the time.

 

[luvsJack]

It's pretty clear to me who's trying to be disrespectful here.

As I said earlier, we must never compromise our belief system for the benefit of others.

I never asked you to compromise your belief system. I don't have a clue what your belief system is.

I simply have stated that a few chosen words were insulting and you asked if you have to compromise your belief system for the benefit of someone else. So are you saying that your belief system is based on those words? I wasn't trying to be disrespectful or insulting. I just don't see another explanation of how not saying three or four words is compromising your belief system.

As for the remark about today's youth. Ask any police officer, he can tell you about the disrespect for others. BTW, that wasn't directed at you; it was just an observation.

 

[glitterkittyy]

There are ways to express your beliefs without being insulting. I'm sure not saying that I've never insulted anyone, I'll just say that I "try" to make my point without being insulting to someone.

I haven't insulted anyone. I may have offended some, but I surely have not insulted anyone. They are two different things.

 

[ols386]

I haven't insulted anyone. I may have offended some, but I surely have not insulted anyone. They are two different things.

 

[bicker]

Why can it not just be stated that one does not believe without using the insulting terms?

Why are you trying to impose rules on how other people express their perspective? How about you decide how you want to express your perspective and let Tiggernut -- really other people in general -- decide how they want to express their perspective?

I am not trying to impose rules on other people.

That is what the bolded words are implying. I could ask you why you can't word that bolded statement differently so that it doesn't imply imposition of what you want in terms of how people express their perspectives on the concepts being discussed. (I won't though.)

I am asking why someone cannot change their wording when they know what they are saying is insulting.

Your assertion here assumes that your perspective on the statement, i.e., that it is insulting, is the only possible rational perspective that anyone could possibly have. You're essentially imposing your perspective onto others right there.

So you're asking a question to which the people you are asking the question of disagree with you about the premise of the question. Removing your bias from the question leaves, "Why [cannot] someone change their wording?" That's simply imposition of your rules of rhetoric, to serve your desires in this regard, nothing more, as far as I can tell.
In the same vein, I could ask you to please stop asking questions with premises that you haven't established as fact, and we haven't come to consensus about. Would you? If you only ask questions where the premise of the question is biased, then it seems like you're just using the construct of a question to put forward your own talking-points.

If I can state my perspective without purposely insulting someone why can't anyone else?

Folks can very readily disagree with this premise as well.

There is a difference between labeling a person or people, and expressing a perspective about ideas or concepts. That goes back to ols386's and your error before about Tiggernut's comments being insulting: You can't insult ideas or concepts.

Excuse me, if I find a statement to be insulting it is insulting regardless of anyone's intent

For people who disagree with that perspective of yours, it is not an insulting statement, regardless of whether you choose to take insult or not.

If I have voiced that I find a remark to be insulting to me and those of my religion, then it is the same thing as a word or phrase that is insulting to a person's race.

That is not the case. You cannot claim personal equivalence with concepts, and thereby declare, by your personal fiat, that any specific types of statements regarding those concepts are personal insults on you.

Oh, come on.

Just carrying on the demonstrations I started earlier in this message: Anyone can readily label the use of exhortations such as this, which have no other constructive purpose in the thread, as insults.

Maybe I just think people and their feelings are more important than my feelings of importance and superiority.

No, that's not relevant to this issue, at all.

Are you saying that no one that...

I'm saying that the words I responded to are not relevant to this issue. Please don't try to recast my statements to make them easier to argue against. Thanks.

 

[Goofyluver]

I never asked you to compromise your belief system. I don't have a clue what your belief system is.

I simply have stated that a few chosen words were insulting and you asked if you have to compromise your belief system for the benefit of someone else. So are you saying that your belief system is based on those words? I wasn't trying to be disrespectful or insulting. I just don't see another explanation of how not saying three or four words is compromising your belief system.

As for the remark about today's youth. Ask any police officer, he can tell you about the disrespect for others. BTW, that wasn't directed at you; it was just an observation.

Here's what ya' said...

Why is it such an impossible request to ask someone to change the way they say something so as not to insult someone else?

And here's my point.

Why should I have to compromise my belief system for your benefit?

My words and beliefs are not intended to offend or insult. I am simply expressing my opinion. Your choice to be offended over my or anyone else's statements is firmly entrenched in your religious views. And that has nothing to do with my belief system. It is only a reflection on your views and beliefs.

 

[luvsJack]

I grew up in the bible belt. I know all about public prayer being the norm even when it shouldn't be (public school meetings, city council meetings, etc). What you consider respect, I consider compromising my beliefs. I am not going to bow my head during prayer because I want no one to assume that I believe in something I do not. It's not disrespecting your beliefs; it's respecting my own above all else.

There is nothing wrong with staying true to your convictions especially if you're in the minority and are looked down upon by others (which is often done at said events). I'm not ashamed to stay true to myself and take the heat that goes with it.

They are not compromising anything. When they leave that event or actually 3 seconds after the prayer is over--its over. No harm, no foul. They have not changed their beliefs nor have they been asked to. They see it as being respectful and mindful that not everyone believes as they do. And they are far from being ashamed of anything. They are extremely secure in themselves. They simply do not find it necessary to force the point at every opportunity or to try and change the world to believe as they do.

 

[bicker]

What?

So many of us are to change what we say to make others feel better?

Yikes.

I'll play devil's advocate a bit: That would be nice. I think, though, that the change cannot decimate the meaning or impact of what the person is trying to say, and it seems to me that that is what is being insisted upon in this case.

 

[luvsJack]

Here's what ya' said...



And here's my point.

Why should I have to compromise my belief system for your benefit?

My words and beliefs are not intended to offend or insult. I am simply expressing my opinion. Your choice to be offended over my or anyone else's statements is firmly entrenched in your religious views. And that has nothing to do with my belief system. It is only a reflection on your views and beliefs.

I know what I said. I said that a few simple words are insulting and asked why someone could not say it differently. That is not compromising an entire belief system. Its changing the way a sentence is worded. Using different words to describe something does not change the thing, only the words used.

Again, no one has asked that anyone change what they believe. We were insulted by the choice of words not the belief behind them.

 

[ols386]

I'll play devil's advocate a bit: That would be nice. I think, though, that the change cannot decimate the meaning or impact of what the person is trying to say, and it seems to me that that is what is being insisted upon in this case.

What are you saying? Sorry, it's me, the one who doesnt always understand what point you are making.

 

[Shelton123]

A friend of mine was talking to his son today about the Devil & Hell (his son brought it up) & he said to his son:

"The only true way to get rid of the Devil & avoid going to hell is to simply not believe in it"

What do you think about this?

ALL respectful religious & non-religious opinions welcome!!

That's actually a really good point! I'm Jewish, so I don't believe in hell.

 

[luvsJack]

I'll play devil's advocate a bit: That would be nice. I think, though, that the change cannot decimate the meaning or impact of what the person is trying to say, and it seems to me that that is what is being insisted upon in this case.

No one is "insisting" on anything. I didn't know that asking for a bit of common courtesy would cause such an uproar. But you are correct in that it was only being asked that the choice of words be changed. I do not like to see God referred to as a myth.

 

[Goofyluver]

We were insulted by the choice of words not the belief behind them.

Okay.

And I stand by my other statement...if you are not a non-believer, then why do you choose to be insulted by their statements? If you're secure in your beliefs as you say you are, why do my statements insult your person? I'm expressing an opinion, just as you are. That's all. For me, it's not an insult. More of a statement of fact in reference to my own beliefs.

 

[luvsJack]

Okay.

And I stand by my other statement...if you are not a non-believer, then why do you choose to be insulted by their statements? If you're secure in your beliefs as you say you are, why do my statements insult your person? I'm expressing an opinion, just as you are. That's all. For me, it's not an insult. More of a statement of fact in reference to my own beliefs.

Don't get why you are confused. Your belief or the lack thereof does not insult me in any way. You choosing to call the God I believe in a fantasy or fairy tale, does insult me. It is not the belief but the words used. What exactly is confusing?

I don't know any other way to explain it except that you are calling someone (who is real to me); that I love with all my heart, who loves me unconditionally, who is there for me through every hardship, who listens to every problem and is there every time I cry and every time I laugh, who has blessed me beyond any words, a myth. By my belief, He is very real, He is the center of my universe and you are comparing Him to the Easter Bunny or Tinkerbell.

 

[Goofyluver]

Don't get why you are confused. Your belief or the lack thereof does not insult me in any way. You choosing to call the God I believe in a fantasy or fairy tale, does insult me. It is not the belief but the words used. What exactly is confusing?

I don't know any other way to explain it except that you are calling someone (who is real to me); that I love with all my heart, who loves me unconditionally, who is there for me through every hardship, who listens to every problem and is there every time I cry and every time I laugh, who has blessed me beyond any words, a myth. By my belief, He is very real, He is the center of my universe and you are comparing Him to the Easter Bunny or Tinkerbell.

And again, you are projecting your beliefs onto others. It is your choice to be offended by the statements of others. If you are secure in your beliefs, then my or others statements should not offend your person.

 

[Tiggernut_jadie]

But to us he IS the same as the Easter Bunny or Tinkerbell...well actually that's not strictly true - I actually had my photo taken with Tinkerbell last year at WDW so I KNOW she's real!

 

[luvsJack]

And again, you are projecting your beliefs onto others. It is your choice to be offended by the statements of others. If you are secure in your beliefs, then my or others statements should not offend your person.

I am not projecting my beliefs onto anyone. I do not expect you to have the same belief as I do, or to change to your beliefs. You asked why it is insulting and I told you.

I said earlier that I guess you cannot understand unless you have a Christian relationship with God. Not judging you or saying you should have one, but I guess it is impossible to empathize with something of which you have no understanding.

I still don't get why, once you are told something is insulting, it is so much to ask for you to not use that term. I mean there are millions of words in the English language, are there no others to describe your belief? It certainly seems to me that it is those that insist on using the insulting terms that are hell bent on forcing their views on others.