What do you think about this statement?

[ols386]

I totally agree. To me it's not an insult at all to call Christianity a "fairy tale". I happen to love fairy tales and find a lot of stories from the bible quite entertaining.

Just because it's not insulting to you for someone to call Christianity a fairy tale, doesn't mean that someone else might not be offended by it.

I don't care if someone has different religious beliefs than I do, and they are free to express their beliefs, but if they know that I think it is an insult for them to refer to my beliefs as a fairy tale, then to me, that's disrespectful, at a personal level. If you don't care that you are insulting me by calling my beliefs a fairy tale, then so be it. If that's the case, then just say so...."Your beliefs are a fairy tale, and I don't care if I insult you by saying that."

 

[Uncle Remus]

You can't figure out another way to question my beliefs than to call them fairy tales? Really? You can question my beliefs all day long. Ask away. Try to prove my beliefs wrong. I don't care. I am secure in my position as a Christian. But questioning what I believe can be done in a more respectful manner.

I find it ironic that so many non-religious folks call religious folks intolerant of others but yet cannot simply find a more respectful way to refer to the God that a person loves and lives their life by. I am not asking you to change what you believe or what you think of what I believe. All I asked is that you be respectful about it.

Are you seriously saying that in all the posts that refer to God as a myth, you don't think even one was meant as disrespectful or making fun of those that believe in God?

Good. Then you shouldn't find others that believe differently insulting when they express their beliefs. One who is secure in their beliefs will not be wavered or bothered by the words of others.

I can only speak for my own ideals. Am I intending disrespect when I say that my personal view is that the belief in a higher power is comparable to a belief in fairy tales or mythology? No. And furthermore, it is not intolerant to express one's personal beliefs. If you perceive such language as intolerant, that is your choice and frankly, has nothing to do with my belief system, and instead is entrenched in your own views on your own religion.

Very well said, thank you.


A lot of the Christians I know tell me other Christians are goin' to hell because their god is the wrong one.

Heck, it looks like Christians just can't win.

 

[Uncle Remus]

Just because it's not insulting to you for someone to call Christianity a fairy tale, doesn't mean that someone else might not be offended by it.

I don't care if someone has different religious beliefs than I do, and they are free to express their beliefs, but if they know that I think it is an insult for them to refer to my beliefs as a fairy tale, then to me, that's disrespectful, at a personal level. If you don't care that you are insulting me by calling my beliefs a fairy tale, then so be it. If that's the case, then just say so...."Your beliefs are a fairy tale, and I don't care if I insult you by saying that."

But it is you that interprets it as an insult.

To many of us, it's just a statement of fact.

 

[luvsJack]

Why are you trying to impose rules on how other people express their perspective? How about you decide how you want to express your perspective and let Tiggernut -- really other people in general -- decide how they want to express their perspective?

I am not trying to impose rules on other people. I am asking why someone cannot change their wording when they know what they are saying is insulting. If I can state my perspective without purposely insulting someone why can't anyone else?

There is a difference between labeling a person or people, and expressing a perspective about ideas or concepts. That goes back to ols386's and your error before about Tiggernut's comments being insulting: You can't insult ideas or concepts. Excuse me, if I find a statement to be insulting it is insulting regardless of anyone's intent (at this point I don't even remember what Tiggernut said so I don't have a clue whether it was intentional). If I have voiced that I find a remark to be insulting to me and those of my religion, then it is the same thing as a word or phrase that is insulting to a person's race.

No, that's not relevant to this issue, at all.

Oh, come on. Are you saying that no one that ever refers to God as a myth and the same as Santa Claus on this board is ever trying to come off as superior? (Not meant at you, Tiggernut, but other posters on this subject)

 

[ols386]

But it is you that interprets it as an insult.

To many of us, it's just a statement of fact.

That's true, to me it is an insult. And I'm saying if YOU KNOW that I am offended by it, then why say it? Unless you just don't care if you offend me. Just have the guts to say, "I'm going to use whatever terminology I want, and I don't care if I offend you."

Quite honestly, if I know that a certain term offends someone that I'm talking to", then I won't use that term. Maybe it's not a term that would offend me, but out of respect for that person, I won't use it. That's all I'm saying. It's a matter of personal respect, nothing more.

 

[Goofyluver]

Just because it's not insulting to you for someone to call Christianity a fairy tale, doesn't mean that someone else might not be offended by it.

I don't care if someone has different religious beliefs than I do, and they are free to express their beliefs, but if they know that I think it is an insult for them to refer to my beliefs as a fairy tale, then to me, that's disrespectful, at a personal level. If you don't care that you are insulting me by calling my beliefs a fairy tale, then so be it. If that's the case, then just say so...."Your beliefs are a fairy tale, and I don't care if I insult you by saying that."

And again...if you don't subscribe to the same ideals as a non-believer, why do you (figurative you) find these words insulting?

I'm not offended when Christians tell me I'm going to hell for bein' a non-believer or for the way I live my life. I'm secure enough in myself and in my beliefs that it doesn't matter what they say.

 

[luvsJack]

I'm a former women's pastor who did believe wholeheartedly at that time. So I do understand what you're saying.

But as an atheist now, I can also understand why it's an apt comparison when "I do not believe in god" isn't enough to satisfy the asker. I never immediately compare it to a myth or fairy tale. I am often asked for further clarification, and that is an easy way to make the comparison so that it is easily understood. It's not meant to be offensive.

I do respect your right to your beliefs. I would defend it to the hilt. I just don't respect the belief itself. If given the choice, I would rather have someone defend my rights instead of my personal belief. That is, by far, the more important matter IMHO for all of us.

I do understand what you are saying. Never experienced it in the conversations I have had, maybe I just didn't ask the right questions. But I can see where describing what you do believe God to be when asked would make it necessary to refer to Him in that way.

The problem with what you are saying is that some are posting it as a myth or a fairy tale without being asked for an explanation or to clarify. To say that none of the posters who use these terms are meaning to insult anyone or to make fun of anyone's beliefs or to make themselves feel superior is naive at best.

I agree that defending our rights is more important than defending beliefs. I am not asking anyone to defend my beliefs, just to respect them. As a for instance, my husband's best friend is of a religion that does not believe in saluting the flag. They go to a lot of rodeos together and at first he would not even stand or remove his hat when the flag came in. Now he does stand and remove his hat, I asked him what changed. He said he will not say the pledge or place his hand over his heart as he believes that is placing country/flag above God. But he has come to realize that standing and removing his hat is a show of respect and out of respect of others he will do that. He is not defending other's beliefs that its ok to salute the flag, he is respecting it. Ds and his friends do the same when attending an event that includes a prayer. They stand quietly out of respect. They are not defending anyone's belief in prayer, they are respecting it.

 

[ols386]

And again...if you don't subscribe to the belief system of a non-believer, why do you (figurative you) find these words insulting?

I'm not offended when Christians tell me I'm going to hell for bein' a non-believer or for the way I live my life. I'm secure enough in myself and in my beliefs that it doesn't matter what they say.

I honestly think that it's disrespectful to use terminology if you know up-front that the person you are talking to, finds offensive. And it's not just tied into religion, it could be any term.

 

[luvsJack]

And again...if you don't subscribe to the same ideals as a non-believer, why do you (figurative you) find these words insulting?

I'm not offended when Christians tell me I'm going to hell for bein' a non-believer or for the way I live my life. I'm secure enough in myself and in my beliefs that it doesn't matter what they say.

Because it is an insulting way to refer to the God who we love and follow and talk to every day. Why is it such an impossible request to ask someone to change the way they say something so as not to insult someone else?

Is common courtesy really that dead?

Like ols386 asked, once you are told it is insulting why continue saying it? The only explanation is that you wish to continue to be insulting.

 

[Goofyluver]

I honestly think that it's disrespectful to use terminology if you know up-front that the person you are talking to, finds offensive. And it's not just tied into religion, it could be any term.

And I believe that in this case, the choice to be insulted is firmly rooted in your religious beliefs themselves. If you are secure in those beliefs, I fail to see how one could view the beliefs of non-believers as insulting.

We're not name-calling on the playground here. We're discussing personal ideals.

 

[glitterkittyy]

I do understand what you are saying. Never experienced it in the conversations I have had, maybe I just didn't ask the right questions. But I can see where describing what you do believe God to be when asked would make it necessary to refer to Him in that way.

The problem with what you are saying is that some are posting it as a myth or a fairy tale without being asked for an explanation or to clarify. To say that none of the posters who use these terms are meaning to insult anyone or to make fun of anyone's beliefs or to make themselves feel superior is naive at best.

I agree that defending our rights is more important than defending beliefs. I am not asking anyone to defend my beliefs, just to respect them. As a for instance, my husband's best friend is of a religion that does not believe in saluting the flag. They go to a lot of rodeos together and at first he would not even stand or remove his hat when the flag came in. Now he does stand and remove his hat, I asked him what changed. He said he will not say the pledge or place his hand over his heart as he believes that is placing country/flag above God. But he has come to realize that standing and removing his hat is a show of respect and out of respect of others he will do that. He is not defending other's beliefs that its ok to salute the flag, he is respecting it. Ds and his friends do the same when attending an event that includes a prayer. They stand quietly out of respect. They are not defending anyone's belief in prayer, they are respecting it.

They were asked, in a way, by the OP's question itself. It asks about hell. So it would be a way to respond to the OP while addressing all other questions that typically follow. You have probably seen it here yourself many times. I know I have. It's not usually enough to say "no, I don't believe in hell". People usually want to know the "why" of something. So perhaps those people were anticipating the inevitable questions that come. In every thread like this that I have seen, it has happened, so I can see where it would be anticipated and answered before asked. I hope that makes sense.

As to your example, I must say if I were your friend, I would not stand. See, it's my opinion that I need to respect my own beliefs, and if it were against my religion to stand/salute the flag, I would stand firm in those convictions. When someone says a prayer, I am quiet because I don't want to disrupt the occasion (not so much out of respect but for the sake of not causing a scene), but I do not bow my head nor close my eyes. I also do not put myself in situations where I am typically around those who would lead prayer if I can help it, though.

 

[Uncle Remus]

What?

So many of us are to change what we say to make others feel better?

Yikes.

 

[Goofyluver]

Because it is an insulting way to refer to the God who we love and follow and talk to every day. Why is it such an impossible request to ask someone to change the way they say something so as not to insult someone else?

Is common courtesy really that dead?

Like ols386 asked, once you are told it is insulting why continue saying it? The only explanation is that you wish to continue to be insulting.

So I must compromise my personal belief system for the benefit of others?

 

[ols386]

What?

So many of us are to change what we say to make others feel better?

Yikes.

That's ok, go right ahead and say whatever you want and use whatever terminology you like....the bottom line is you don't have the guts to just come right out and say, "I'm going to say what I want, and I don't care if you are insulted."

You certainly don't hesitate to let it be known when someone on these boards says something you don't like. So why should I be complacent and just sit back and keep my mouth shut when you say things that I don't like.

 

[ols386]

So I must compromise my personal belief system for the benefit of others?

Sorry, I just don't see how you are making a compromise in what you believe, by refraining from using a term that someone finds insulting, when YOU KNOW they find it insulting. I guess maybe we'll never agree on this topic, and that's ok. We can all have our own opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right and you are wrong, or the other way around.

 

[glitterkittyy]

That's ok, go right ahead and say whatever you want and use whatever terminology you like....the bottom line is you don't have the guts to just come right out and say, "I'm going to say what I want, and I don't care if you are insulted."

You certainly don't hesitate to let it be known when someone on these boards says something you don't like. So why should I be complacent and just sit back and keep my mouth shut when you say things that I don't like.

I don't think it's accurate to say that people will say what they want and not care if you are insulted. It's not about insulting you or anyone else. It's accurately describing how they feel. So I will say it this way.

I will make whatever statement or comparison that I find is appropriate and accurate when describing my beliefs (or lack of belief) even if it may offend someone.

Yeah, that I can live with.

 

[Goofyluver]

We can all have our own opinion.

Exactly.

We must never be required to compromise our beliefs.

 

[ols386]

Exactly.

We must never be required to compromise our beliefs.

So true.
Right back at ya.

 

[luvsJack]

They were asked, in a way, by the OP's question itself. It asks about hell. So it would be a way to respond to the OP while addressing all other questions that typically follow. You have probably seen it here yourself many times. I know I have. It's not usually enough to say "no, I don't believe in hell". People usually want to know the "why" of something. So perhaps those people were anticipating the inevitable questions that come. In every thread like this that I have seen, it has happened, so I can see where it would be anticipated and answered before asked. I hope that makes sense.

As to your example, I must say if I were your friend, I would not stand. See, it's my opinion that I need to respect my own beliefs, and if it were against my religion to stand/salute the flag, I would stand firm in those convictions. When someone says a prayer, I am quiet because I don't want to disrupt the occasion (not so much out of respect but for the sake of not causing a scene), but I do not bow my head nor close my eyes. I also do not put myself in situations where I am typically around those who would lead prayer if I can help it, though.

Maybe its a Southern thing, but there are many events that include prayers and ds and his friends like to attend the school functions of their younger siblings, sporting events and the like. I am proud of the fact that I have raised my son to be respectful of beliefs other than his own. As for our friend, he is secure in what he believes and what he does. He knows in his heart that he is not placing anything before God and out of respect for those around him and, in the past few years, out of respect to the many friends they have in the military he stands and removes his hat. He does not sing the anthem or say the pledge, but stands quietly. All southerners remove their hat as a show of respect ( I would assume that is the case anywhere, but just clarifying that it is not a salute)

It is my opinion that you have to be secure in yourself to be able to show that kind of respect to the beliefs of others. It is those who are not secure who must speak badly of those of other religions or of no religion at all. Who come up with wild rumors of what others believe or act afraid of what others believe. And to completely be disrespectful and insulting? Can't be too secure.

Goofyluver, No one has to compromise anything to be respectful. When did I ask you to compromise your beliefs? I was speaking of a phrase, a few words. Your whole belief system is built on "God is a fairy tale"? Wow.

I keep seeing threads that ask "what is wrong with today's youth". Well, here you go. Lack of respect of others and their feelings, their rights and their beliefs.

 

[ols386]

I don't think it's accurate to say that people will say what they want and not care if you are insulted. It's not about insulting you or anyone else. It's accurately describing how they feel. So I will say it this way.

I will make whatever statement or comparison that I find is appropriate and accurate when describing my beliefs (or lack of belief) even if it may offend someone.

Yeah, that I can live with.

There are ways to express your beliefs without being insulting. I'm sure not saying that I've never insulted anyone, I'll just say that I "try" to make my point without being insulting to someone.