What do you mean " WE " Paleface ?

[pokiemomo181]

Unless you live on a reservation you get no benefits for being NA. Even then I don't call living on a reservation a benefit. I can't answer for other NA's only myself. If you don't prove you are NA then on every form you fill out such as census or any government form for that matter you have to list yourself as caucasion, not NA. I guess that made me feel like I was being told I couldn't be what I was. That I was not allowed to ba NA. I felt it was a disrespect to my past to say I was something I was not. I got sick of it, and proved my past to all concerned. It was a personal thing, but I don't think others, or even you would want to have to claim to be something you are not. I don't know what catagory you fit in when you fill out forms, but if I was caucasion then it wouldn't matter to me if I was German, or Irish or what I would still be caucacion, so it would be fine. If I was AA then I would fill in AA and would still have my heritage. Because I was NA I had to prove it to be it. That is why I said we were the only ones who had to prove who we were. I didn't do it to get anything other than what I felt I was entitled to, My heritage. I didn't think anyone had the right to tell me I was caucation and not NA. I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone but me, maybe you have to be NA to understand the pride we feel in who we are. If that is so then nothing I say will make any sense to anyone. I was NA and I thought it was my right to be NA. I hope this helps you understand, but if not at least I understand and thats all that matters.


Pokie

 

[Truth]

pokiemomo181,

do you think that the one of the reasons for you being made to prove who you are has any connection
to possible past or future legal claims against the American Government for damages or reparations
resulting from the violation of treaties, theft of land, and genocide perputrated on the native people of North America ?

 

[Microcell]

Originally posted by Truth
when did many become we ?

As divided as America is, could anyone seriously think " we " could be used in a context where something America has done is something all of America approved of ?



You are not against killing people if you are in favor of killing anyone that is killing people.

You do not get to pick, choose or judge, either
You are for killing people or
You are against killing people.

The sooner people realize that there is no middle ground on this the sooner wars will cease to exist.

This is a long way off and there is little hope of anyone here seeing it happen, but as long as
" we " are not all in agreement with it,
it will not get any closer.

Truth,

Your problem here is that you insist on trying to conform all humanity to your way of thinking. We are in a kill or be killed situation here, so if it is them or me, yes, let it be them.

Another problem you have is that society has taught you since the 60's that it is wrong to judge, or that certain situations call for particular judgement. You have a black and white view that it is all or nothing, well, there is grey in this world.

As long as there are differing opinions and religions there will be calls to judgement. As long as there are extremists out killing, then war is inevitable. I wish I could get all pie in the sky, but unfortunately I am rooted in our reality, and until terrorists and extremists are stopped, we will have war.

I suppose you think if we are just nice to them we will get them to stop? What are your thoughts as to how to stop our people from getting killed? Women here is shackles? Enslaving people again? What?? How nice can we get? Give them all our money?

 

[Virgo10]

Originally posted by tiggersmom2
Because it is a PC term that does nothing. You either are American or you are not.

Yeah, I can see me walking around saying I'm a German/English/French Canadian/Irish American.

Roberta

 

[Microcell]

I just read the Native American stuff and there is a benefit other than Res living- with enough blood you can get free schooling at Haskell Indian Nations University in Lawrence Kansas. An ex boyfriend found his way there to go to school free of charge. He is 7/16ths Eastern Cherokee. His family also escaped the trail of tears- I was always amazed at how much of a division there is between Eastern and Oklahoma Cherokee! Boy he hated them! He called me paleface all the time ( I thought it was in jest!) .

 

[Microcell]

Originally posted by Truth
pokiemomo181,

do you think that the one of the reasons for you being made to prove who you are has any connection
to possible past or future legal claims against the American Government for damages or reparations
resulting from the violation of treaties, theft of land, and genocide perputrated on the native people of North America ?

I would think you wouldn't have a problem with that.

I plan to Sue anyone who ever called me Kike, not to mention those Renaissance folk who drove my family out of Spain when they decided to start learning and producing great works of art. When I get through with those potatoes in Ireland that forced my family to America, those Irish won't be able to say potato without thinking of me. Oh and the Queen of England will be bowing to me as well, after all, her ancestors wouldn't let my grandmothers family practice thier Puritan beliefs openly.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Dan Murphy

Well put, Dan.

 

[WebmasterMaryJo]

<font color=navy>I think that it's not easy for people of European descent to understand why anyone else would want to hold onto a culture that seems to be "unAmerican." My opinion is that, well, it's pretty easy for those of European descent to feel that way because the people in power who colonized America were of European descent and didn't have to change their culture, and anyone who was different was "taken care of," ie the Native Americans who were already here, and the Africans who were brought here to serve the Americans of European heritage. (The English & Spaniards treated them differently, but both methods were damaging to a whole civilization.)

And, yes, that is history - yes, that happened many many years ago, but the feeling of "us vs them" continues, and most any ethnicity that is shared that is other than European is usually tolerated in small doses, and only as long as we can walk away from it when we want to get back to "normal" America - which is based in a European lifestyle.

If anyone asks me what I am, I will answer American, and I will say it proudly. I am just as proud to say I am Mexican American, or Spanish American because I have grandparents from those countries. We're an American flag-waving family, but that doesn't mean that I throw away my other cultural lifestyle.

My father, who is pretty successful, was editor of his high school newspaper in El Paso - he won a trip to Austin, where he faced prejudism for the first time, and was made to sit at the back of the bus -- why? because his skin was darker, and for no other reason. That was back in the 50's, so things have gotten better, right? Well, to a degree. In the 70's, my cousin went to work on the Lyndon B. Johnson ranch. He wasn't allowed to stay in certain motels, nor allowed to eat at certain restaurants. Why? Because of his noticeabe Indian heritage (we've got Zuni, btw). My cousin doesn't speak a lick of Spanish, and is as American as he can be -- but he was ostracized because he was different. Things have got to be better now, right? I live in Los Angeles - a veritable metropolitan city with huge ethnic diversity - so we all get along right? Last month, my kids and a friend went to see a friend in a play at El Segundo High School (near the LAX airport). My son & his friend were surprised because as they entered, a group of kids pointed to them and whispered to each other - "Look, Mexicans." This school is predominantly "white upper class America" -- so what are these kids being taught by their parents, if they have to point out a couple of other kids who happen to have skin a little darker than their own? The intolerance of anything different still lives.

When people stop name calling, and pointing fingers at people who don't look like them, talk like them, cook like them, etc., these type of discussions will stop.

When people learn to respect the differences in each other instead of feeling threatened by them, we'll live in a more peaceful society, and this has to come from all sides, not just one, but each person has to take the responsibility to really try.

I know this is off the original subject, but I see some questions and challenges, especially to Robin & Pokie, and wanted to give my own perspective.

 

[pokiemomo181]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Truth
pokiemomo181,

do you think that the one of the reasons for you being made to prove who you are has any connection
to possible past or future legal claims against the American Government for damages or reparations
resulting from the violation of treaties, theft of land, and genocide perputrated on the native people of North America ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought I explained my reasons in the post to poohandwendy. Did you not read that one. I ask nothing from the government . My sons defend with their lives your right to say things as you do. Do you really think that being NA is just looking for something for nothing. Boy are you way off base. Everything I have written up to this point just runs off your back huh.


Pokie

I am not able to say why the government wants us to prove it, I am just saying all NA are not wanting revenge, or anything else from the government.
Pokie

 

[Lisa F]

For anyone who is interested in where the title came from...

Tonto and the Lone Ranger are riding on horseback, when suddenly they are confronted by hundreds of armed Indians. The Lone Ranger turns this way and that, only to run into more of them. Finally, he says to Tonto, "it looks like we are surrounded." To which Tonto responds: "What do you mean 'we,' paleface?"

 

[Lanshark]

Truth

Do you enjoy the freedoms that "WE" have?

I am assuming you are enjoying the properity that "WE" as a nation have.

It's easy to attempt to separate yourself from the difficulities while enjoying the benefits

 

[rcyannacci]

Just a few thoughts...

The term "we" inevitably does some harm because to define a "we" is also to exclude some from this group. When statements of "we believe..." or "we disagree with..." are made and someone within that group disagrees, it challenges their sense of identification with that group. But that doesn't mean that they have to leave the group; they can chose to stay and confront the group's position. Indeed, some many noteable historical figures have taken heroic stands to broaden the defined "we" of American citizenship.

The original "WE the People" in the Constitution would not have meant me originally, since women weren't allowed to vote until the ratification of the 19th amendment. But women like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony challenged the nation to back up established constitutional ideals.

Many Americans before the Civil Rights movement didn't feel that "we" should include a large population of African-Americans, but leaders of this community, including Martin Luther King, Jr. demanded a more inclusive "we." Rosa Parks demanded to be part of that "we"- I find her action to be so incredibly inspirational because it was accomplished on such a local everyday level. We all can take actions everday that make a difference to help populations in America that continue to fight for the rights that should be afforded to them by the "we."

I personally believe that words matter; words can improve a situation and can also do major damage. A community that choses to take ownership over their own identity, be it Native-American or African-American, is a positive step because it challenges past racist designations that had developed out of fear and ignorance. To take ownership of one's own identity through these, for lack of a better word, hypenated terms is to take power away from those who have inflicted past harm. For me it is a sign that our nation is healing and stronger than ever, and that our notions of "we" are expanding so that "we" do less violence in the future.

 

[MJames41]

Thank you Lisa F. I couldn't for the life of me remember where it came from.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by Mary Jo
<font color=navy>
When people stop name calling, and pointing fingers at people who don't look like them, talk like them, cook like them, etc., these type of discussions will stop.

When people learn to respect the differences in each other instead of feeling threatened by them, we'll live in a more peaceful society, and this has to come from all sides, not just one, but each person has to take the responsibility to really try.

.

This is the part that I believe is the problem too.

Yes, people have to stop the name calling but it sure makes it hard when those people call themselves names in a effort to distinguish (or distance, your pick) themselves from others.

You're friend had a good opportunity to straightened those butt heads out. He could have said, "No, we're Americans like you, who's ancestors are from another part of the world."

"Just like yours".

 

[Truth]

Originally posted by pokiemomo181
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Truth
pokiemomo181,

do you think that the one of the reasons for you being made to prove who you are has any connection
to possible past or future legal claims against the American Government for damages or reparations
resulting from the violation of treaties, theft of land, and genocide perputrated on the native people of North America ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought I explained my reasons in the post to poohandwendy. Did you not read that one.

Yes, all of your posts here have been read.

Originally posted by pokiemomo181
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ask nothing from the government.

That point was understood by Truth, although it does seem to have escaped several others.

Originally posted by pokiemomo181
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you really think that being NA is just looking for something for nothing.

No, if that was the point a simple question asking
for comfirmation would have been asked first.

(EXAMPLE) Are you saying that Gama Rays have no effect on Man In The Moon Marigolds ?)

Originally posted by pokiemomo181
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not able to say why the government wants us to prove it, ...

You were not being asked to explain why " you " think the Government was wanting proof. You were being asked for your opinion on one of the possible reasons the Government was demanding proof from all native Americans.

In other words, Native Americans being made to prove anything has much more to do with the questionable motives of the Government than any motives of any individual Native American.

Originally posted by pokiemomo181
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am just saying all NA are not wanting revenge, or anything else from the government.
Pokie

a. Do you have a position about any Native Americans
that do have claims pending against the Government ?

b. Do you have an opinion on the Black Hills court case ?

======================================
In order to reduce possible confusion here are the answers to those two questions from this end of the net.

a. Yes. It seems like the vast majority of claims made against the Government by Native Americans would in a truely just justice system be decided in favor of the Native Americans.

b. Yes.
1. The land should be reclaimed thru Eminent Domain.

2. The current deed holders should be paid for their property at twice current fair market value plus expenses in setting them up in a new property of their choice as close to the orginal setting as possible.

3. deed or transfer the property to the Native Americans in whatever legal manner they request.

 

[Truth]

Thanks rcyannacci,

your post saves the effort of posting the information about the " Opulent Minority ".

Your words and thoughts are indeed welcome and ring true.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

I think that Truth's original post is quite good. It's kind of a shame because it would be nice if the whole world could be thought of as "all one". Just like it says on my Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap bottle. We're all one world. Anyone ever read that bottle? It's really very interesting.

Turning this post into a commentary on my people as opposed to your people seems to go against the spirit of fourth of July. Although I haven't read the whole thread, or how it ended up going down that path. I can guess though.

Keep up the thought provoking posts, Truth!

 

[Saffron]

Did those of you who are saying that people who use two words to describe themselves as Americans instead of one "distance themselves", read posts from people right here on this thread who use two words to describe themselves? Did you read why they do it? Did you read that they do NOT do it to distance themselves from anything? Or did you not read those posts? Because if you did read those posts and you still insist on saying that's why people do it, can you tell us who "those people" are? I've NEVER heard of anyone doing that to "distance" themselves [from what?]. Did you not read the posts written why people do use two words? I just don't get it. Honest to God, two plus two equals four, not five, no matter how much anyone wants it to equal five. When people state why they do something, no matter how much others want what they do to mean something different, it just doesn't!

rcyannacci - that's an excellent post! And Mary Jo, you make some excellent points too!

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by Truth

The sooner people realize that there is no middle ground on this the sooner wars will cease to exist.

Wars will always exist. To think otherwise is to be simple-minded.....oh, nevermind

 

[Saffron]

minniepumpernickel, in summary :
a.) No one was commenting much on the original post then:
b.) Someone put up a post that simply said: "If someone needs a prefix before the word American, they need to get out. Bumperstick seen in Key Largo" or someplace.
(What that had to do with the original post, I'll never know. ) Then Robinrs challanged the meaning of the post and the dialogue began.