We just tried NCL… NEVER again.

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Just one more thing to keep in mind when comparing against DCL. Disney's cabins are usually larger.
The OP said she cruised on Carnival and Princess too, so I didn't think this was a strict comparison to DCL. My Majestic Princess cabin was bigger because it was a bigger category, but all my other cabins have been small.

It's not free, though. I usually do my own laundry for much less than the $30 that NCL charges for that bag and I can do it on whatever day works best for me rather than being on their schedule.

Disney has free soda machines and free room service.
DCL is also twice the price of NCL.

Well, but "free at sea" isn't at all "free" since they pre-charge you quite a lot for what they call "gratuities". Disney offers lots of free movies, but I guess that's expected since they own those movies.
Meh. We pay $20 per day in gratuities for the drink package. That's less than the price of one glass of wine and one silly drink. We drink more than that while on board: a glass of prosecco here, a martini there, a glass of wine with my meal, a silly drink when coming back from an excursion ... it's way more than $20 worth. They also change 20% on the "value" of the specialty dining. I would tip that much anyway. It's a real bargain for us.
 
DCL is also twice the price of NCL.
That's not usually true. It's more likely to be true if you're traveling with 3+ people in the room. As a comparison, I looked up a 7-night Caribbean cruise for two people from Port Canaveral in April, 2023.

The DCL cruise is a standard Western Caribbean (Cozumel, Jamaica, Grand Cayman, Castaway Cay). A verandah room on deck 10 is US$4,736. The NCL cruise is almost the same (Key West, Jamaica, Grand Cayman, Great Stirrup Cay). A "club balcony suite" (which is about the same size) is US$3,904.

So, the DCL room is 21% more expensive, not double. Also, I can't actually select the NCL room. That's a guarantee rate and it seems like they don't have non-guarantee rates available for that cruise.
 
So, the DCL room is 21% more expensive, not double.
Depends. We are taking our family on a cruise to AK next summer out of Seattle. As an example our son's verandah cabin, 3 people, is $6,800 with the perks, drink package for the two adults, WIFI for 2, 2 shore excursion discounts and 2 specialty dining for 2. The same week on DCL out of Vancouver is $11,800 for a verandah for the 3 of them. On top of that airfare to Vancouver and the overnight hotel is also much more.

Price was part of our decision to go NCL, but the fact that we could not do Seattle was the main consideration since there will be 16 of us total. The logistics and additional cost for Vancouver was a big part of our decision. Add that to the cruise and you are definitely more than double in cost.
 
I agree that this is helpful info - some of the comments here feel pretty dismissive. Of course it's a personal evaluation that is going to be different for different types of travelers, but a lot of the things that bothered you would be big problems for my family too. It's useful to know what other travelers have experienced.
I don't think the comments were dismissive. I appreciate the review. Some things such as laundry are something you should know. You can't expect every cruise line to be similar, therefore it's really important to research before booking anything. I like Royal and Disney, but they are different. Good and bad on both cruise lines.
 

Depends. We are taking our family on a cruise to AK next summer out of Seattle. As an example our son's verandah cabin, 3 people, is $6,800 with the perks, drink package for the two adults, WIFI for 2, 2 shore excursion discounts and 2 specialty dining for 2. The same week on DCL out of Vancouver is $11,800 for a verandah for the 3 of them. On top of that airfare to Vancouver and the overnight hotel is also much more.

Price was part of our decision to go NCL, but the fact that we could not do Seattle was the main consideration since there will be 16 of us total. The logistics and additional cost for Vancouver was a big part of our decision. Add that to the cruise and you are definitely more than double in cost.
I had a similar decision to make when taking my son on a med cruise last year. 12 nights on Royal. Balcony on a new ship for 3500 or inside room on an older ship the Dream for 7700. Believe it or not DCl was originally priced at 11k for an inside. That was the IGT rate at 7700. Sometimes you have to think with your wallet and not your heart. It can work out. Odyssey of the Seas was a fantastic ship and we had a fantastic cruise.

I think Alaska and Europe are more about the tours and not so much the ship. If you can save thousands and put that money into experiences on shore it's so worth it.
 
Depends. We are taking our family on a cruise to AK next summer out of Seattle. As an example our son's verandah cabin, 3 people, is $6,800 with the perks, drink package for the two adults, WIFI for 2, 2 shore excursion discounts and 2 specialty dining for 2. The same week on DCL out of Vancouver is $11,800 for a verandah for the 3 of them. On top of that airfare to Vancouver and the overnight hotel is also much more.

Price was part of our decision to go NCL, but the fact that we could not do Seattle was the main consideration since there will be 16 of us total. The logistics and additional cost for Vancouver was a big part of our decision. Add that to the cruise and you are definitely more than double in cost.
Well, sure. Of course, it depends. I said "not always". I also pointed out that putting more than 3 people in a room tends to heavily advantage non-DCL cruise lines since Disney almost always charges for the third person and other lines don't.
 
I would not call us picky travelers or difficult to please. We’ve had wonderful cruises on Carnival, Princess, of course Disney and even Royal. We decided to try NCL Encore for the first time over Thanksgiving and we are never cruising with them again.

I’ll start with the good. The ship was nice and it was clean. There were some fun activities like the VR arcade and Lazer Tag for kids. The MDR food was pretty good, and the Indian on the buffet was also good. The paid French restaurant was pretty good.

Now for the bad. Oh boy.

First, all three of my children (11,8,4) HATED the kids club. They said it was boring, very little supervision, kids just running around everywhere, little organization. My 4 year old refused to go after the second day. He would panic when we just walked by the kids area. We were so concerned we talked to the directors and asked if anything had happened as he has never acted this way about any kids camp ever, and they just shrugged and said they weren’t aware of anything. Obviously this meant my husband and I weren’t able to enjoy the adult activities on the ship, which was a huge bummer.

If you weren’t lining up for the kids club 15-20 minutes before 7pm, there wouldn’t be space for your child. My older two kids said they would give the kids camp another chance, but were not able to because by the time we showed up just 5-10 minutes after it opened, it was full and we were number 100 something in a virtual queue to get in. Never experienced anything like this on any other cruise line.

The ship was extremely overcrowded for what they offered. Getting into shows was near impossible, MDR reservations were booked out days in advance unless you wanted to eat at 9:30pm. Impossible to finds seats for buffet, no chairs available on the pool deck, etc.

Our balcony stateroom was TINY, the closet could not fit our suitcase at all. We booked two balcony staterooms next to each other, and they refused to open the dividers between the two rooms for us. They said it was a “safety issue” And that this was a rule across the entire NCL fleet.

They only clean the rooms once per day. This wouldn’t be so bad if they would allow you to choose the time like morning or dinner, but they said they only clean the rooms until 4pm and then after that they only provide towels, or clean for an emergency. This meant that by the time we got back from an excursion at the beach, everything was covered in sand and we had sand in our bed from walking in our room covered in sand until the next day when they would come to clean again. I did request a bed change once after 4pm when my youngest accidentally knocked an entire cup of soda onto my bed, soaking the sheets and pillow. They were very rude about having to come and change the sheets.

No self service laundry and the laundry offered by the ship was extremely expensive. 5 or 6 dollars for each single shirt, 7 or 8 dollars for each pant. With 5 of us that would obviously add up to a lot of money.

No soda machines. If you wanted a soda outside of meal times, you had to go to bar and ask for a cup.

No free room service. Even continental breakfast cost extra, and if you wanted a soda from room service you were charged even if you had the soda package.

No included food on the pool decks. We went to the pool around 11am, thinking we would swim for an hour or so, grab some lunch on the deck and keep swimming. Nope. There was a bar but the only food available was at the diner which is not free and ended up tasting terribly.

There was never any seating at the buffet. We ended up having to walk from the buffet to the pool because that was the only seating we could ever find. Extremely long lines.

No bedrails for my 4 year old who slept on the converted sofa. He fell off the bed twice in the middle of the night :(

TERRIBLE internet. We paid extra for us to have high speed internet, thinking that since they had Starlink it would be worth it. It was the worst internet on any cruise I’ve been on, even ones that did not have Starlink. It simply would not work 50% of the time. Not slow, but just flat out would not work. There was an over 12 hour window where my husband and I could not even load our emails, and with one of our dogs sick with the dog sitter this was really stressful.

I feel like *everything* cost extra. Even really old movies in the stateroom cost money to watch. The only free movies were ones they played on loop at certain times.

My kids all said this was their least favorite cruise they’ve ever been on. My husband and I completely agreed. I had such high hopes for NCL but it just wasn’t for us. I would much rather cruise Carnival or Princess or of course Disney. Celebrity is the next line I really want to try.

Anyway, I know a lot of people really enjoy NCL and some of this may have been ship specific, but just figured I would share my experience.
We have all the same complaints from our Alaska cruise with NCL this summer. The itinerary was great but the actual cruise ship was miserable for us, as a family of five with three younger children.
 
We have all the same complaints from our Alaska cruise with NCL this summer. The itinerary was great but the actual cruise ship was miserable for us, as a family of five with three younger children.
This was how we also felt. We cruised on the Encore to Alaska this summer. Our daughter is older(15), but there was nothing to do on the ship. We were so disappointed in the lack of family activities.
 
This was how we also felt. We cruised on the Encore to Alaska this summer. Our daughter is older(15), but there was nothing to do on the ship. We were so disappointed in the lack of family activities.
It was the same on the Bliss. We don’t have kids so it was just us two adults but unless one really likes drinking there wasn’t much to do during the day. The library only opened for checking out of books for one hour each morning. Movies in the stateroom were an extra charge. Two of the six hot tubs (the two in the adult area on our sailing) were closed “for maintenance” the entire cruise! The tiny pools were loud and packed. They do have the go carts for an extra charge but have a weight limit and I’m a bigger guy so wasn’t able to partake. I’m right on the edge of the limit and I didn’t want to be weighed in front of everyone and told I was too big in case I had a big lunch that day or something.
 
When we cruised NCL Hawaii we vowed never again. Yes, it's a slightly different animal because it's USA-flagged and has U.S. employees. They had a wildcat strike just before our cruise, and they were quite under-staffed.

A short gangway failed in port and the crew reset it but didn't test it -- they watched as one of the passengers disembarked and her leg became trapped between the ship and the gangway. She's lucky she wasn't seriously injured.

Food was a joke -- even my pregnant niece lost weight that week. Dinner took up to an hour between courses, finally delivered by management, while hungry passengers waited in long lines outside the dining room. Some family members opted for pizza on shore, which tasted better than the featured items on the cruise menu. It was basically a floating hotel and it's hard to have a lousy time in Hawaii. Housekeeping was almost non-existent, and the staff that wasn't on strike were flipping each other with towels in the hallway instead of cleaning the staterooms.

With so many better choices, we just haven't found the "need" or desire to ever do an NCL cruise again.

We love NCL and have sailed on the Sun, Gem, Jade and Joy and had fantastic cruises. We've always said it's a different experience than DCL, but we enjoy both equally for different reasons.

However, we just got off Pride of America's Hawaiian cruise on 11/12. Oh boy - I don't even know where to start but let's just say there was no wildcat strike and the cruise still sucked. If that had been our first NCL cruise not only would I never sail on them again, I'd tell everyone that would listen to stay away. So I completely get where you are coming from. We were in a suite, and NCL does know how to take care of their suite passengers (the Haven is incredible!) but even that service was a step back from our other suite / Haven experiences. But away from the suite team? Service and food were mostly terrible - some meals were barely edible. Crew members were friendly but it was apparent they were severely understaffed. I'm pretty sure I got food poisoning halfway through the cruise and then our toilet quit working the last two days (thank goodness those things did not coincide :crazy2: ). Apparently an entire block of cabins were malfunctioning and they never did get them all back and working. The whole cruise was a disaster.

Still, I'd urge you not to judge NCL as a whole on that ship. We were warned ahead of time that it's a different animal, but even then we were shocked at how bad it was. Due to several things that happened to us and the help of the concierge, we did each get generous future cruise credits - totaling almost $2000. But I'm not ready to pull the trigger on booking another one just yet. We probably will, as we do love the other ships and especially the Haven, but need to think about it some more. Our TA is also a personal friend so I trust her completely and she assures me that outside of POA she still gets good reviews from her NCL clients. So we'll see.

But I can 100% understand you not wanting to sail them again. My PSA for today - avoid the NCL Pride of America (it's nothing to be proud about :cool:.)
 
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That's not usually true. It's more likely to be true if you're traveling with 3+ people in the room. As a comparison, I looked up a 7-night Caribbean cruise for two people from Port Canaveral in April, 2023.

The DCL cruise is a standard Western Caribbean (Cozumel, Jamaica, Grand Cayman, Castaway Cay). A verandah room on deck 10 is US$4,736. The NCL cruise is almost the same (Key West, Jamaica, Grand Cayman, Great Stirrup Cay). A "club balcony suite" (which is about the same size) is US$3,904.

So, the DCL room is 21% more expensive, not double. Also, I can't actually select the NCL room. That's a guarantee rate and it seems like they don't have non-guarantee rates available for that cruise.
OK, I admit I was being flippant about DCL being twice as much. But your example isn't 21% more either.

(1) The NCL price point you used included "Free at Sea" which is not included in the DCL price. If you adjust down the NCL price to subtract the gratuities on the drink package ($305) and the meal package ($40) you get an NCL price of $3639. In reality, NCL usually charges a couple hundred more for their base price of cabins which include "Free at Sea" over those which do not ("Sail Away"), but I'll ignore that.

(2) If the NCL price is $3639 and the DCL price is $4736, then the DCL cabin in 30% more than the NCL cabin.

(3) If you look at another month than April, two other NCL ships were at Port Canaveral but the Epic and the Escape left for Rome in the first week of April.

(4) I picked a random week in February, Feb 10-17. The Fantasy and the Epic have similar itineraries, but this time the Epic has a "Sail Away" fare in the Club Suite category (which is not a suite, but just a larger balcony). The Epic comes in at $2900 and the Fantasy comes in at $4554. In this case, DCL is 57% more expensive than NCL.

(5) I can pay for a lot of laundry, soda and room service with that extra money.
 
My PSA for today - avoid the NCL Pride of America (it's nothing to be proud about :cool:.)
I've heard similar stories. I think it's because the Pride of America is a US registered ship with a predominantly American crew and is subject to US labor laws. I have always found that the International crews work their tails off on cruise ships. I've heard that the Price of America has been drastically understaffed because they can't find enough Americans to work and live in the conditions of a cruise ship :(.
 
OK, I admit I was being flippant about DCL being twice as much. But your example isn't 21% more either.

(1) The NCL price point you used included "Free at Sea" which is not included in the DCL price. If you adjust down the NCL price to subtract the gratuities on the drink package ($305) and the meal package ($40) you get an NCL price of $3639. In reality, NCL usually charges a couple hundred more for their base price of cabins which include "Free at Sea" over those which do not ("Sail Away"), but I'll ignore that.

(2) If the NCL price is $3639 and the DCL price is $4736, then the DCL cabin in 30% more than the NCL cabin.

(3) If you look at another month than April, two other NCL ships were at Port Canaveral but the Epic and the Escape left for Rome in the first week of April.

(4) I picked a random week in February, Feb 10-17. The Fantasy and the Epic have similar itineraries, but this time the Epic has a "Sail Away" fare in the Club Suite category (which is not a suite, but just a larger balcony). The Epic comes in at $2900 and the Fantasy comes in at $4554. In this case, DCL is 57% more expensive than NCL.

(5) I can pay for a lot of laundry, soda and room service with that extra money.
OK?

My point was that DCL isn't usually twice as expensive.

There are obviously other differences to consider. NCL gives you a $50 excursion credit, but charges more for excursions. NCL gives you a small amount of free basic WiFi. The NCL rate that I quoted was a "guarantee", so I didn't get to pick a room. Also, there have been a few cruise lines not exactly honoring that guarantee with overbooked cruises lately. I don't know if NCL is one of them.

And so on. I just picked a random week that had nearly identical cruises and showed a much lower rate then "double". That's it.
 
The second week of March 2 adults and two kids a verandah on DCL Fantasy is 9,885. NCL Joy Club suite 4778. The Family suite is 5778 and the Haven 8218. The Joy was built in 2017 so comparable to Fantasy in terms of age. Fantasy is older.

For two people in a balcony the price spread is a little better DCL 6200 and NCL 3400.

Keep in mind, NCL's prices include free drinks, wifi, restaurants, and excursion credit.

I don't think there's any comparison when it comes to price. You can argue the other stuff, but it's all preference.
 
Sorry your cruise was a bummer. I personally avoid those "big ships" any capacity around 4000 gives me hives. And during busy break times, that can be a crazy amount of people when you consider some families put 4 in rooms. That's just out of my comfort zone. I'll stick to the 2000 passenger ships. I've yet to try DCL. Mainly the cost factor. I can cruise for less on other lines. Granted the experience is no where comparable (the themeing, dining etc.) We also priced DCL for an Alaskan cruise, and that was for our extended family, we could go on any other line for much less. I'd like to try DCL, maybe on a short 3 day trip...
 
The second week of March 2 adults and two kids a verandah on DCL Fantasy is 9,885. NCL Joy Club suite 4778. The Family suite is 5778 and the Haven 8218. The Joy was built in 2017 so comparable to Fantasy in terms of age. Fantasy is older.

For two people in a balcony the price spread is a little better DCL 6200 and NCL 3400.

Keep in mind, NCL's prices include free drinks, wifi, restaurants, and excursion credit.

I don't think there's any comparison when it comes to price. You can argue the other stuff, but it's all preference.
So?

I wrote that DCL isn't usually twice as expensive as NCL. I also wrote that the cost difference is more likely to be that large when you're traveling with more than two people in a room. You went and found exactly that situation to somehow counter what I wrote? I don't understand the logic there. What I said remains true. The price difference is usually a lot less than double.

Let's stop pretending that "Free at Sea" is in any way free, though. You get an excursion credit, but NCL charges more for excursions. The "free" drinks are only worth it if you drink enough alcohol. From what I've read here, the "free" specialty restaurants aren't much better than normal DCL food and normal NCL food is a fair bit worse. I guess the two hours of slow WiFi is free!

(Just for fun, I checked out NCL's "free air" promotion. It's actually only "free" for the second person. For the first person, they wanted to charge me $884 for a round trip flight that usually costs me about $250-350. And, they don't book the flight until 30 days before departure and you don't get to choose the time, route, or airline. What nonsense!)
 
So?

I wrote that DCL isn't usually twice as expensive as NCL. I also wrote that the cost difference is more likely to be that large when you're traveling with more than two people in a room. You went and found exactly that situation to somehow counter what I wrote? I don't understand the logic there. What I said remains true. The price difference is usually a lot less than double.

Let's stop pretending that "Free at Sea" is in any way free, though. You get an excursion credit, but NCL charges more for excursions. The "free" drinks are only worth it if you drink enough alcohol. From what I've read here, the "free" specialty restaurants aren't much better than normal DCL food and normal NCL food is a fair bit worse. I guess the two hours of slow WiFi is free!

(Just for fun, I checked out NCL's "free air" promotion. It's actually only "free" for the second person. For the first person, they wanted to charge me $884 for a round trip flight that usually costs me about $250-350. And, they don't book the flight until 30 days before departure and you don't get to choose the time, route, or airline. What nonsense!)
The post wasn't directed at you.

I think we can stop pretending that DCL doesn't cost more than other lines. We could spend all day posting price comparisons and the results would be the same. I'm not sure why it matters if DCL is so much better than the others. Most people on this forum have come to that conclusion. Sometimes people want to save money though, especially in this economy where everything costs more.

The free drinks are free if you drink. You are only paying gratuities. If you don't drink it's not a good deal and you don't have to add the free drink package. I think that's been covered. No one is forced to book excursions through the cruise line. I don't know if the wifi is slow or fast, but's a gamble on any cruise.

All cruise lines have air\sea programs. They aren't always the best deal price-wise, but they offer some people peace of mind.
I was posting the prices to show the difference in base price not to argue the value of drink packages or airfare.

I was surprised to see the Haven come in less than a DCL balcony. From what I heard Haven is a fantastic experience

I picked that week because it's my kid's Spring break week, but none of the prices I listed above would be in my budget. I need two rooms. I have not looked at Royal or Carnival yet, but maybe I'll post those price differences too.
 
The post wasn't directed at you.

I think we can stop pretending that DCL doesn't cost more than other lines. We could spend all day posting price comparisons and the results would be the same. I'm not sure why it matters if DCL is so much better than the others. Most people on this forum have come to that conclusion. Sometimes people want to save money though, especially in this economy where everything costs more.

The free drinks are free if you drink. You are only paying gratuities. If you don't drink it's not a good deal and you don't have to add the free drink package. I think that's been covered. No one is forced to book excursions through the cruise line. I don't know if the wifi is slow or fast, but's a gamble on any cruise.

All cruise lines have air\sea programs. They aren't always the best deal price-wise, but they offer some people peace of mind.
I was posting the prices to show the difference in base price not to argue the value of drink packages or airfare.

I was surprised to see the Haven come in less than a DCL balcony. From what I heard Haven is a fantastic experience

I picked that week because it's my kid's Spring break week, but none of the prices I listed above would be in my budget. I need two rooms. I have not looked at Royal or Carnival yet, but maybe I'll post those price differences too.
Never understand on these boards why some people act like it’s a personal attack if other people post that they paid less on other cruise lines. They will argue that even if it is cheaper than DCL (sometimes by thousands of dollars) it’s really not because you don’t get free soda, it can’t be a good cruise, laundry costs more, Mickey Mouse isn’t there, etc. I think we can stop pretending that by paying $2k more for a cruise but getting free soda you are coming out ahead. I posted one time that our trip in the Haven was cheaper than the same week on the Fantasy and was told that can’t be true…um, I know what I paid.

Bottom line is DCL is usually more expensive than other cruise lines—sometimes not by much and sometimes by a lot. Everyone has to decide if it’s worth it to them. Sometimes it is to my family, but sometimes it’s not.
 
I'm sorry your experience was so awful, OP! We sailed NCL for the first time this summer, on a 10-night Baltic on the Dawn. We certainly noticed the service differences and had food quality issues, but our kids are teens, so we didn't experience younger-kid-related problems.

Despite the shipboard experience being lackluster, we have no regrets, b/c the itinerary was amazing and not available on any other line. And, FWIW, we paid $7503.52 (fare plus Gov Tax/Port Exp/Fees) for two connecting oceanview rooms. That doesn't include any upcharge things or add-ons. We declined the FAS drink package but did keep the specialty dining ($40 total added for gratuities). We prepaid the service charge ($640 total, at the time). When I priced out the only European DCL itinerary we would have considered, it was well into five figures for one room for the 4 of us, obviously before gratuities. Yeah, our NCL oceanview was smaller than a DCL oceanview. But 2 oceanview rooms with 2 full bathrooms is certainly more space than 1 DCL room with a split bath!

As much as we have loved our DCL cruises, it's extremely hard to justify the higher cost once your kids are older and space is more important. When they were younger, and we happily had all 4 of us in one room, the DCL premium was worth it.
 
The post wasn't directed at you.
No, it was just immediately after my post about prices and in response to my post about prices. And, you pretty much always respond when I post about NCL. But, sure, it was just a random post that was in no way related to my posts.

I think we can stop pretending that DCL doesn't cost more than other lines. We could spend all day posting price comparisons and the results would be the same. I'm not sure why it matters if DCL is so much better than the others. Most people on this forum have come to that conclusion. Sometimes people want to save money though, especially in this economy where everything costs more.
Nobody in this thread has claimed that DCL doesn't cost more than other lines. You're building strawmen.

The free drinks are free if you drink. You are only paying gratuities. If you don't drink it's not a good deal and you don't have to add the free drink package. I think that's been covered. No one is forced to book excursions through the cruise line. I don't know if the wifi is slow or fast, but's a gamble on any cruise.
If you don't have the drinks package, then you're paying for soft drinks and the like, so it's an extra cost to consider. If you don't book excursions through NCL, then you aren't getting a $50 excursion credit. The point about the WiFi is that it's really not sufficient for most people who want WiFi. You get about 15 minutes per day at the slowest rate for free. After that, the cost is just about the same as what Disney charges.

Never understand on these boards why some people act like it’s a personal attack if other people post that they paid less on other cruise lines. They will argue that even if it is cheaper than DCL (sometimes by thousands of dollars) it’s really not because you don’t get free soda, it can’t be a good cruise, laundry costs more, Mickey Mouse isn’t there, etc. I think we can stop pretending that by paying $2k more for a cruise but getting free soda you are coming out ahead. I posted one time that our trip in the Haven was cheaper than the same week on the Fantasy and was told that can’t be true…um, I know what I paid.

Bottom line is DCL is usually more expensive than other cruise lines—sometimes not by much and sometimes by a lot. Everyone has to decide if it’s worth it to them. Sometimes it is to my family, but sometimes it’s not.
Nobody here is arguing that the cost of DCL is equal to the cost of NCL or another cruise line.

Please, stop building strawmen and actually read what's posted.
 
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