WDW sells 100 acres to developers

[Another Voice]

To say that people ignore AK is absurd.

The reason to build that park was to a) attract 3-4 million additional visitors to WDW every years and b) extend the average guest's stay an additional day. The park has accomplished neither goal. Attendance patterns show that most visitors are "taking time away" from time spent at other Disney parks, some people are visiting Animal Kingdom instead of traveling off property, very few are adding another day to their vacation.

Disney has spent a billion dollars and fallen far short of its goal. If nothing else, it convinced the company that just adding a theme park doesn't mean people will show up. Considering that with all that money Disney could film six more sequels to Pirates of the Caribbean - they have made the corporate decision that risking capital on moives will give then a better return keeping Marty and Ethel from driving to Tampa.

The Wide World of Sports was supposed to do exactly as you say - although Disney does know how to measure all the hotel rooms, admission tickets, and meal plans are purchased by all those pre-teen cheerleaders screaming about property. That's why Disney has to offer room discounts for the general public - WWoS is not drawing enough people to fill the rooms. And again - planned expansions for the swimming and diving stadiums have been cancelled. No soccer stadium, no improvements to the football fields...Disney speaks with its spending.

The sad truth is that ideas about the "success" of Animal Kingdom don't matter - only Iger's opinion will decide what gets built. And they've decided - and announced - there will be no more major capital investments at WDW.

 

[peter11435]

The sad truth is that ideas about the "success" of Animal Kingdom don't matter - only Iger's opinion will decide what gets built.

Thats very true.

Although I do have to ask. Where has it been "announced" that there will be no more major capital investments at WDW.

 

[wdwguide]

The sad truth is that ideas about the "success" of Animal Kingdom don't matter - only Iger's opinion will decide what gets built. And they've decided - and announced - there will be no more major capital investments at WDW.

Give it a few years. They clearly overbuilt in the late 1990s, but demand is finally catching up to the excess capacity they created (just try booking a discounted hotel room these days on short notice...). We'll probably go through another 2-3 year cycle where they will do little but come up with a couple of new parades and live shows (similar to the early 2000s) while they cash in on the interest created by Soarin' and Everest, followed by another period of more aggressive investments. I wouldn't expect a new park within the next ten years (not until gas prices drop/stabilize, security fears subside, the Dow hits 20,000, etc, which looks like it'll be a while), but major new e-tickets to add to the capacity and draw of the Studios and Epcot, which have been flat for a decade now, in particular are certainly not out of the question. They will probably also continue to expand their line of bonus and "VIP" offerings, which are basically pure profit for them.

As of last year, WDW's attendance was 42.8 million, close to the record (which was during the Millennium Celebration - 43.2 million). It's true that the AK has cannibalized from the other parks to some extent, but this effect is (now) more than compensated for by the additional attendence it generates - about 3.6 million extra bodies compared to 1997 - which is in line with the goals you stated. Had it not been for the 2001-2003 slump, they would have likely met those expectations consistently. As of this point, 2006 looks like a great year for the parks, and I wouldn't be surprised if AK overtook the Studio's attendance figures.

As for the WWoS - I always thought that was a fairly stupid idea without much more frequent "weenie" features than they have now (i.e. major games and tournaments that will attract guests to come and stay at WDW for that reason alone - like Gators/Noles/UM football games, or an NFL/NBA contract). Same with the underutilized Speedway.

 

[DannyDisneyFreak]

At first I thought the title of this was somthing about the 100 acre woods, I had to read it again...
Oh and sorry to interrupt your much more mature disscussion, which I am enjoying...

 

[peter11435]

The Wide World of Sports was supposed to do exactly as you say - although Disney does know how to measure all the hotel rooms, admission tickets, and meal plans are purchased by all those pre-teen cheerleaders screaming about property. That's why Disney has to offer room discounts for the general public - WWoS is not drawing enough people to fill the rooms.

Thing is that the WWoS was never intended to fill all of the rooms. There is no way it could have. The fact is that many of those room discounts you speak of are disappearing. Beyond that even if the WWoS doesn't fill all the rooms, imagine how many rooms would be unfilled if not for the WWoS.

 

[mitros]

I was under the impression that the reason they removed the guard shack on the roadway by Fort Wilderness was because all of the resorts have their own individual guard shacks now.

A Note about Guard Posts, Guard Post #1 is still there but was moved back a hundred yards, This Gate is Called Park 2 and Guards the Entrance into the MK Tunnel area, you can now make a Left or Right turn at the 4-way stop sign but you can't go straight unless the Security Guard lets you through the Gate. Guard Post #2 was removed last year and is no longer use or standing.

Disney did away with the Security Guard at this gate (which was known as the North Service Gate) and also the gate at Fort Wilderness was also done away with as well. However Disney may decide to build an Automatic Gates similar to the ones use at each Disney Resort hotel.

Disney has four ways (or entrances) into the Magic Kingdom area, Most Guests only know of the Magic Kingdom Toll Plaza where you pay Disney 9 dollars to park, then there's the Fort Wilderness entrance, the North Service Entrance and the New Western Beltway Entrance which connects to a road called Bear Island Road, This road goes from a back entrance gate at Disney Animal Kingdom up to the Car Care Center which is at the back of the MK Parking Lot. This New Entrance has a Automatic Security Gates installed to prevent folks from traveling North to the Car Care Center.

The New Western Beltway access road will be opening for traffic on April 4th and connects the Hwy 429 Toll road to the Buena Vista Drive near Blizzard Beach and Coronado Springs resort.

 

[Tink's Tormentor]

WWoS was never meant to be a 5th gate type of park... WWoS was built to house sporting events on Disney property.. How can it be called a failure when it hold 2-3 cheerleading competitons a year, which requires the cheerleaders, coaches, and parents/friends/relatives all stay on property... They do not stay for free... So this generates income for WDW.. Also, the Braves use WWoS as their spring training facility.. Tampa Bay Buccs use it for their camp... Other competitons/sporting events are held there.. I cannot see where is it a failure.. Also, when WWoS holds sporting events, where do the people stay? WDW RESORTS!!!! Again, they do nt stay for free.. And the kids also go to the parks, spend money on food and merchandise.. It generates money...

AK is far from a failure.. How can it be a failure, cause it only has 1 coaster?? EE has driven attendance up in a few short weeks... AK will be the third most visited park in Orlando this year... And it continues to grow...

 

[Tink's Tormentor]

To say that people ignore AK is absurd. I can guarantee that this year AK will have the third highest attendance of any park in Orlando. It will be above MGM, Universal, and IOA. Sure the park has drawn many of its guests away from the other parks. But it HAS increased the length of stay for many Disney guests. AK's financial situation is only going to continue to improve.

SeaWorld is close to beatin Universal and IOA in attendance

 

[raidermatt]

Finally getting attendance close to 2000 and a few million above 1997 isn't exactly something that indicates success. Most other tourist destinations are already reporting record visitation levels. I'm sure the hurricanes dampened things, but prior to that, Florida itself was seeing record levels of visitors.

Some keep getting hung up on the word "failure". If that translates into nothing but red ink for you, then forget that word.

But whatever word you use, the point is that "failure" is relative. When AV is using it he means the company doesn't like the returns it is getting, and would rather invest in something else next time.

It doesn't mean AK is bleeding cash, or that WWoS did nothing for the bottom line.

So with that relativity in mind, its clear that AK fell short of expectations. Its a little more difficult to get a good read on WWoS. Maybe its done ok, but if it really has been "great", where are those expansions? At the very least, it would seem Disney has decided it isn't going to be as big as they had hoped.

AK will be the third most visited park in Orlando this year...

We've had people here telling us the order was going to change for years now. Sometimes its that MGM was going to overtake Epcot, sometimes AK overtaking both. Maybe it will happen. E:E is a significant add. But doesn't that also say something about how time has crept by and very little has been done with MGM? Yes, the auto stunt show, but that's hadly an "attendance driver".

Although I do have to ask. Where has it been "announced" that there will be no more major capital investments at WDW.

As far as I know, what's been announced repeatedly is that capital expenditures are to remain pretty flat for the forseeable future. International growth is a focus area, and marketing is seen as the way to continue growth at WDW.

Add that up and it means don't look for much more investment at WDW. Of course there will be new attractions here and there, but it does seem pretty clear Disney views WDW as mature.

Its true, these land sales, taken at face value, aren't all that significant. But anytime someone starts doing something they've never done before, you've got to look at more than just the face value. Really now, if somebody had come around here years ago (if we had all been on the "Internets" back then) and suggested Disney should start leasing out its retail and restaurant space to chains and selling of pieces of WDW to developers, would you have jumped on board?

Is this REALLY the vision you had for WDW? Is it the type of thinking that would have ever built WDW, and DL for that matter, in the first place?

 

[Luv2Roam]

I have not looked at maps to see what parcel on Reams Rd was sold. Just thought I would add what I have seen.
On Reams Rd, not directly behind the castle, land is being cleared, on the opposite side of the road.
If I am heading out of MK, making a left, what we consider WDW is on the left hand of the road. The right hand side of the road must have been owned by them too.
It was before my time, but there use to be a CM hangout. What remained that I ever saw was an abandoned, rectangluar cement block building that would have occasional graffiti sprayed painted on the walls.
That building is now gone, and the land around it being cleared.
It started happening after this sold status. I am only assuming that was the acerage sold. And if that is the case that really makes sense, since it was across the road, and already near an apartment complex and housing subdivision.

 

[peter11435]

But doesn't that also say something about how time has crept by and very little has been done with MGM? Yes, the auto stunt show, but that's hadly an "attendance driver".

Typical Disboards response. Rather than give AK the credit it deserves we have to turn it into something negative by blaming MGM for AK success.

Remember there is always going to be a WDW park with the lowest attendance. There is no avoiding that. But that doesn't been the park is a failure.

 

[Tink's Tormentor]

OK, again... What was the purpose of WWOS??? To be a park destination for WDW guests???? To bring millions of people to WDW?? No.. it was meant to be a sporting venue.. plain and simple... Even Disney knew they wouldn't get 10 million through the gate... Come on now people.. To sit here and say DIsney thinks WWoS as a failure is ludicis... It serves its purpose... Other than maybe All-Star Cafe that is....

As for Animal Kingdom.. I hated this park the first time I was there... Now, after several visits, it is now one of my favorites.. MGM is now my least favorite... I think other people are seeing it as well, how awesomely themed AK is... Remeebr, AK is only 8 years old... Geez, give it some time ot develope.. Even Rome wasn't built in a day... And to say Disney is not bleeding cash into AK cause they aren't getting their return, how do you figutre ovre 100 million for Eversest??? How do you explain the possible expansion that is being talked about, the new land AK may be getting, or at least another E ticket with some A,B,C tickets as well... AK is getting the love it needs.. MGM needs the major help now.... Complain about MGM, not AK...
Blame Eisner for MGM falling short... Cause, if any park is a failure in WDW, it is MGM Studios.

 

[Another Voice]

OK, again... What was the purpose of WWOS???

A question a lot of people who work at WDW ask on a regular basis.

The purpose of Sports was to bring in lots of big scholastic and amateur sporting events during WDW’s off season to help even out attendance levels. A lot of WDW’s costs are fixed whether one person shows up or three million do. It has always (and I mean going back to 1971) been WDW’s goal to have as even attendance as possible.

Disney has been using conventions to do this since the day the resort opened. WDW went full out in the mid-90’s to become the “Vegas of the East” for high profile conventions that are attended by lots of plump adults touting very juicy expense accounts. Count the number of WDW resorts with major convention facilities. Notice that the Boardwalk is chock full of Corporate American Express card friendly restaurants catering to the martini set.

Disney thought they could extend this practice to capture the down scale markets as well. One of the things that lots of people travel is to participate in sporting events – both scholastic and amateur. The city of Indianapolis has been very successful here, Disney thought they could do well too. While each participant doesn’t spend as much money as a convention goer, you make that up in volume and reduced services.

The plan seemed simple – fill the Pop Century during the summer with swarms of families and in winter fill with pre-adolescent cheerleaders.

Only one minor problem – Disney priced itself out of the market. WDW sees itself as a “luxury brand”, meaning that people should expect to pay more (and receive less) simple because “it’s Disney”. While some high end events – which happened to be cheerleading competitions, go figure – coughed up the premium, many more groups refused. All those softball fields, the baseball fields, the “Milk House” go unused. No Little League World Series, no Pop Warner championships, no Rocky Mountain Flag Football League play-offs. Of the groups that do show up, even they are finding Disney’s accommodations pricey. Just as many people stay on property as stay off and that destroys the economics of the place.

So “World of Sports” has become a giant white elephant hanging out on the edge of the world. ESPN can occasionally scrape together theo odd phony-event for a TV show, and the occasional “Miss Junior Miss International Dance Cheer of America” competition shows up – but they did that before WDW dropped hundreds of millions of dollars to build the place (and holding the events on the ‘Indy Jones Stunt Show’ stage looked better on TV anyway). The unfinished, rotting in the sun half of Pop Century shows exactly what happened to the business model.

In the end, 'Wide World of Sports' joins The Disney Institute in failed ideas to expand WDW's audience.

 

[peter11435]

Pop Warner championships.

Actually the Pop Warner Championships are held at the WWoS.

 

[mitros]

.....and then there's that Richard Petty "race track" {or whatever it is they are calling it these days} area that seems to have gone over to the garbage heap of failures at WDW. ZOOM ZOOM!

 

[TSR6]

The Walt Disney Speedway actually held races from 1996 until 2000.

 

[YoHo]

Actually the Pop Warner Championships are held at the WWoS.

Hello, Let me introduce you to this incredible forest that you've missed while you were busy looking at the trees.

 

[peter11435]

Hello, Let me introduce you to this incredible forest that you've missed while you were busy looking at the trees.

I didn't miss the rest of his post. I just saw something that needed to be corrected.

 

[Another Voice]

I stand corrected. I was so upset about having missed "Twirl Mania" in February that I didn't look at the schedule closly enough.

Then again, I did check out the Soccer schedule. Soccer is the sport with the highest number of school age players and one of the top in adult leagues. The World of Sports schedule lists a total of 13 events for the entire complex for the entire year. And of these events, 9 of them are put on by Disney itself. Five of the six track and field events are Disney. And while WoS gets a couple of AAU events, Field Hockey and Jr. Girls Volleyball aren't exactly the Olympic Trails and NCAA Championships that WDW had expected.

I give credit to Disney at trying to broaden the reach of WDW, but like The Disney Institute, the execution of the plans and the corporate "hot potato" reaction when it failed to be an overnight sucess remain a problem.