Was the teacher wrong?

[ronandannette]

I've been out of school a long time.
When did students start getting syllabuses in middle school that parents had to sign for?
I only got those in college.

Why on earth did your parents have to sign your college syllabi?

 

[starry_solo]

Why on earth did your parents have to sign your college syllabi?

Lol, they didn't have to sign them. It was mention in other posts about syllabuses and parents signing them in middle school and high school that confused me. I'm like, I know I'm old but I never heard of that before.

 

[ronandannette]

Lol, they didn't have to sign them. It was mention in other posts about syllabuses and parents signing them in middle school and high school that confused me. I'm like, I know I'm old but I never heard of that before.

Perhaps syllabus is a bit too grand a word for what is circulated in jr. high. If I remember my DS's, it's best described as a course outline with the weights of the marking (eg. 50% exams, 25% assignments, 25% class participation) and any milestone dates. They also usually spelled out any specific or unusual policies for a particular class such as "no extra credit projects will be assigned" or "no late assignments will be marked". Having a parent sign their acknowledgement put an onus on us to understand the rules and reinforce them at home.

 

[SteveH]

Dumb AND lazy is no way to go through life.

LMAO!! Anyone nearly quoting my favorite movie of all time is alright in my book!

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!...

 

[sam_gordon]

Can someone explain how this letter is "demeaning"? Presumably the target audience are kids that have low grades because they haven't done the work and are now looking for extra credit. You know what? Sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[Summer2018]

Perhaps syllabus is a bit too grand a word for what is circulated in jr. high. If I remember my DS's, it's best described as a course outline with the weights of the marking (eg. 50% exams, 25% assignments, 25% class participation) and any milestone dates. They also usually spelled out any specific or unusual policies for a particular class such as "no extra credit projects will be assigned" or "no late assignments will be marked". Having a parent sign their acknowledgement put an onus on us to understand the rules and reinforce them at home.

In the elementary and middle schools in my district, teachers send home a Parent/Student/Teacher Compact with clear language including grading rubrics and criteria charts which must be signed by parents and students and returned. Clear expectations from day one help to avoid nonsense throughout the school year. Teachers and administration refer to the Compact signed by parents and students alike as necessary.

 

[buzzrelly]

Please suggest some. I understand how taken aback you might be but I have to assume you've never dealt with a slacker kid. I can promise you many more moderate efforts would have been made previous to that letter.

It's fairly easy…

"No, there is no extra credit in this class."

"Your grade is what it is since I do not offer extra credit in this class."

It's not hard to not be rude. She put much more effort into that rude letter.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

No. In my opinion the only time it is wrong to not allow/accept late work or extra credit is if a child is out sick or on bereavement or something.

This is just my opinion, but if you are a nuero-normative student, it takes work to fail school, especially middle school. If you child does not have learning disabilities, they could still struggle with some subjects, but if they have at least a halfway decent teacher, they will be able to get help. Maybe that means a C ... and that's OK. In reality, you just my be a C student when it comes to certain things. For me, that was art.

But to fail? To get, like, a 40 for the marking period? You have to purposely not do work. You have to actively refuse to do homework and classwork. Assuming, as I said, your student does not suffer from any major disability. And if they do, they should have an IEP to help account for that.

 

[SamFaniam]

But to fail? To get, like, a 40 for the marking period? You have to purposely not do work. You have to actively refuse to do homework and classwork. Assuming, as I said, your student does not suffer from any major disability. And if they do, they should have an IEP to help account for that.

I have a neighbor with a "perfect" son who is always complaining about how awful all of his teachers are. She was going on about how he has a 35 average in one of his classes. She says he completes all his assignments and earns 100 on everything and the teacher is being unfair because he has test anxiety and doesn't get enough time for tests. But, in our district, tests are only allowed to be 50% of the total grade. So, even if he is getting zeros on tests, wouldn't he still have a 50 average? Perhaps the math experts on the thread can help me out here!

 

[smiths02]

I don't have a problem with no extra credit or no late work.

I also don't have a problem with accepting late work or corrected tests (for partial credit). The goal of the teacher is to get the student to learn the material. If the assignments were valuable, then doing them late would still help the student. As a parent, I don't expect the teacher to give credit, but I do expect my student to do the work.

I agree that extra credit is too much work for the teacher to create and grade an entirely different assignment.

I disagree that students with disabilities are all identified and supported by middle school (or that something else could not be impacting a student's grades). I worked with a high school student who had a not yet diagnosed learning disability and was getting something like a 30% in history mid-way through the grading period. She accepted that she had no pathway to pass the class that semester, so she stopped doing the homework in that class to concentrate on the classes she could pass that semester. The problem was that the teacher decided that she was "lazy" and punished her with not only the bad grade, but also detention.

Again, it is fine to give the students the grades they deserve, but I don't think it is necessary to pile on the consequences or send out a ranting letter.

 

[smiths02]

I’m a middle school teacher and I think the letter is inappropriate. I agree with this teachers stance on extra credit, I feel the same way, but the teacher could have expressed herself without the demeaning, snarky tone.

I’m surprised at how many have said that stating this policy in a factual way at the beginning of the term would be useless. How? Have the students and parents sign off that they have read and are aware of the policy. Any arguments later on can be met with, “I’m sorry you feel this way, but my policy was spelled out at the beginning of the term. The time to discuss your concerns with that policy would have been at that time,” or something similar. No further discussions needed. Also, if the district policy is that letters home need to be approved first, she definitely set herself up by not doing that.

Just to be clear, I agree with her stance on extra credit. I feel the way she communicated it was unnecessary. Just because they are middle school kids doesn’t mean they can’t be communicated with in a respectful way. Especially by an adult. We (society) get frustrated with the way kids act and speak, then defend adults that act or speak like this to kids?

I feel like, on one hand, people are saying to treat them as if they are in the "real world." No extra credit, no do-overs, etc. On the other hand, I can't imagine a work supervisor writing someone up for an infraction at work say "Do us both a favor … Remember how disappointed and upset you feel right now. Take a moment and really let it sink in. Every time you fail to .....think of how you feel right now, and know that if you continue to make the decisions that have led you to this moment."

 

[Minnesota!]

That's middle school behavior, even if he's in high school -- boys are definitely "younger" than girls in high school, regardless of their chronological age. Has he just started high school?
You're not describing a test-taking problem. It's a focus problem; you even said laziness. From what I hear you saying, if he were to encounter a state test with a reading passage on bowling, he'd ace it. Why? Because he'd enjoy the reading, and he'd focus on it.

He is finishing his freshman year, yep! He is my kid I have wished, since kindergarten, that I had held back. Smarts he was ready. Socially, nope. He is very much more immature than his peers. Made for some rough jr. high years, for sure!

I really appreciate your perspective on the test taking - I had never looked at it like that! You are right - it is a focus problem. Because he chooses to not focus, then not comprehend, those subjects that are of little interest to him. Thank you!!! Might help how I handle him and these issues, too.

My guess is that the disconnect comes from a lot of distractions when he's arriving in class and is supposed to put it in a certain place (complicated by the fact that the basket/tray/folder/procedure is different in every classroom) - and especially if he tends to dawdle in the hall and come into class at the last second. When he's sitting at the table doing the homework, it's exactly the opposite - a solid routine in a calm environment.

He needs to find a way to make turning homework in part of a routine too. Different things work for different kids - the alarm I mentioned earlier, a bright "turn in HW" note taped to the cover of his notebook, a connection to some other part of his routine... Talk with him about what he thinks might, as you said, "spark his fire". The key is that whatever system he uses has to be his system - not something you or the teacher do for him.

That IS the reason - he always says "mom, I don't want to be the first to turn things in because then I feel like the kids who didn't do the work would be mad at me reminding the teacher". Which, doesn't fly, but I am not there to hand it in for him, so I have no control over that. I am going to have to come up with something creative.

I've been out of school a long time.
When did students start getting syllabuses in middle school that parents had to sign for?
I only got those in college.

I did in MS/HS - graduated in 96 from HS..

 

[SteveH]

On the other hand, I can't imagine a work supervisor writing someone up for an infraction at work say "Do us both a favor … Remember how disappointed and upset you feel right now..."

I don't know about that, I've had a couple employees that I dished out some feedback pretty close to that. Both of them didn't seem to be phased when they were written up, but come salary review time when they got 0% and were told it was because of their behavior and write up's it began to sink in. One bailed the other did change their way, for a bit but then right back to the behavior. I gave up at that point.

The reason an employer won't say things like that is most will just cut the employee vs deal with potential lawsuits or harassment complaints. As I hire a lot of younger adults I do try to help them out, but sometimes you can't over come what they have been taught or failed to learn.

 

[Hikergirl]

I don't have a problem with no extra credit or no late work.

I also don't have a problem with accepting late work or corrected tests (for partial credit). The goal of the teacher is to get the student to learn the material. If the assignments were valuable, then doing them late would still help the student. As a parent, I don't expect the teacher to give credit, but I do expect my student to do the work.

I agree that extra credit is too much work for the teacher to create and grade an entirely different assignment.

I disagree that students with disabilities are all identified and supported by middle school (or that something else could not be impacting a student's grades). I worked with a high school student who had a not yet diagnosed learning disability and was getting something like a 30% in history mid-way through the grading period. She accepted that she had no pathway to pass the class that semester, so she stopped doing the homework in that class to concentrate on the classes she could pass that semester. The problem was that the teacher decided that she was "lazy" and punished her with not only the bad grade, but also detention.

Again, it is fine to give the students the grades they deserve, but I don't think it is necessary to pile on the consequences or send out a ranting letter.

Why was all the responsibility on the teacher or the school?
She had an undiagnosed learning disability all the way through HS and never advocated for herself, or her parents never did or her?
I find your story pretty unbelievable. If she was doing so bad to the point where she wasn't going to pass, then the parents were ignoring the issue.
What is a teacher supposed to do, if after almost a year in class gardes don't improve, assume a student has an undiagnosed learning disability and pass them anyway?
This student chose not to do her work, and without an IEP stating she doesn't have too, then the teacher did nothing wrong by giving her a bad grade, and even detention if that is a consequence for not doing work.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Can someone explain how this letter is "demeaning"? Presumably the target audience are kids that have low grades because they haven't done the work and are now looking for extra credit. You know what? Sometimes the truth hurts.

No question, that letter is very demeaning.
You ask for somebody to explain that to you.
If you don't see something that many others see as just obvious, then I don't think anybody here could get you to see it. No matter how they try to explain it to you, or enlighten. you.

The very presumption you are making is not even appropriate.
I would never begin to assume this negativity is the absolute 'truth' about every student in those classes.
I find it kind of sad and troubling that anyone would.

If a student has not been handing in their work, then a private memo to that students parents, or a quick conversation with that student is what would be appropriate.
That letter is very very demeaning and disrespectuful and not appropriate at all.

 

[Hikergirl]

No question, that letter is very demeaning.
You ask for somebody to explain that to you.
If you don't see something that many others see as just obvious, then I don't think anybody here could get you to see it. No matter how they try to explain it to you, or enlighten. you.

The very presumption you are making is not even appropriate.
I would never begin to assume this negativity is the absolute 'truth' about every student in those classes.
I find it kind of sad and troubling that anyone would.

If a student has not been handing in their work, then a private memo to that students parents, or a quick conversation with that student is what would be appropriate.
That letter is very very demeaning and disrespectuful and not appropriate at all.

The kind of people who think it is demeaning are the kind that can't handle being told the truth about themselves when the truth isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
They are the exact kind of people that make writing these kinds of letters necessary. Kudos to this teacher for setting those people straight. We need more people like that and less of the others.

And FTR I have one of those kids that a letter like that would be directed too. If any of his teachers had sent it home, I'd call them and thank them. Maybe had it come from them instead of mom and dad he would have listened.

 

[DopeyDame]

I think there's two different issues here.
First, is her policy and overall message (no extra credit, learn from how you feel right now) appropriate/acceptable? I think the answer to that is clearly yes. When I first started teaching at a community college the department chair told me not to bother with extra credit - it's usually the kids who already have As who do it anyway, and so you're just adding more busy work for the students who don't need it.

The second issue is her communication style/approach. It's terrible. It wouldn't cause me to write to the Principal or anything, but it definitely would make me role my eyes and pray my next child never gets her as a teacher. My guess is she's just a generally rude/brusque teacher. We've all had them, and they suck. They don't tend to motivate or inspire kids. I'm sure there are kids doing their work and getting As in classes, but my guess is that there aren't any kids in her class who are going to find a new academic passion or remember her fondly in the coming years.
She could easily have sent the exact same message with a note that said "I do not offer extra credit. If you want to improve your grade, I encourage you to take this opportunity to notice the consequences of your past actions. In the future, please complete all assignments on time."

 

[smiths02]

Why was all the responsibility on the teacher or the school?
She had an undiagnosed learning disability all the way through HS and never advocated for herself, or her parents never did or her?
I find your story pretty unbelievable. If she was doing so bad to the point where she wasn't going to pass, then the parents were ignoring the issue.
What is a teacher supposed to do, if after almost a year in class gardes don't improve, assume a student has an undiagnosed learning disability and pass them anyway?
This student chose not to do her work, and without an IEP stating she doesn't have too, then the teacher did nothing wrong by giving her a bad grade, and even detention if that is a consequence for not doing work.

This was her first semester. She was diagnosed with a learning disability that semester (parents were seeking help, which is how she was diagnosed). Part of how it was missed is her being passed along, which I agree did not benefit her. The other part was being in schools that were so bad, that she didn't stand out. The students referred at those schools were students who were 3 or more years behind in academics or had huge behavioral issues. Parents with limited resources in struggling schools often don't know how to get their children help. They moved to get her into a better school, but she was 2 years behind in some areas.
I agree that she should have failed the class as she did not learn the required material and needed to repeat it. I don't agree that she needed detention or for the teacher to write her off as lazy.

 

[sam_gordon]

If a student has not been handing in their work, then a private memo to that students parents, or a quick conversation with that student is what would be appropriate.
That letter is very very demeaning and disrespectuful and not appropriate at all.

Do you know that this WASN'T a private memo to the students that it affected? Even if it was handed out to the entire class, it was obvious who it was directed to. If it wasn't directed to me, it's easy to ignore/trash. If you get this note and don't know whether it was addressed to you, then you have deeper problems.

ETA: Just because a parent posts it on social media doesn't mean this wasn't a private note.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

If this was sent out or this tone/demeanor used in one of the early education grades, I would have a huge issue with it. For middle schoolers at the end of the year, it doesn't bother me so much, though it I think it should only have been sent to those kids who it applied to (may have been, so not really judging that). There's a huge difference in how I think it's appropriate to address late work and students in general in early education vs middle school.

In 1st grade, DD came home crying frequently. It took a while to figure out that she was uncomfortable around and a little scared of her teacher. We finally figured out the problem when she said that kids (not even her, but other kids) who did something wrong were made to sit on a bench and write sentences. The teacher would then go over and make a big spectacle in front of everyone, put her hand on her hip, and say, "I can't wait to see your sentences." Doesn't sound too bad on the surface, but she was using a sarcastic tone that DD and some of the other kids didn't understand and thought the teacher was making fun of them/getting joy out of them being in trouble, and apparently that tone/attitude/hand on hip mannerism was frequently used throughout the day. I witnessed it myself when I came in to talk to the teacher about a page in their journal they were told to skip and save for a "special assignment." They were told to do this on a day DD was absent and she found out from another student after she did her next assignment on the page that should have been skipped. Seems like a minor issue, but DD was petrified she was going to miss out on something when they came back to that page or get in trouble and kept trying to ask the teacher what to do, but the teacher kept dismissing her. So anyway, when explaining that DD had been coming home crying afraid she would get in trouble over it/miss out on the special assignment it was saved for, the teacher cut me off, put her hand on her hip, and told DD sarcastically, "If you would have done it correctly the day it was assigned to everyone, you wouldn't be in this situation. Everyone else skipped the page, so maybe you need to pay better attention when I'm giving instructions." She continued on for a few mins while my jaw hit the floor and DD hung her head in shame. Once I collected my bearings, I reminded her DD was absent the day she told them to skip it, had asked her several times what she needed to do, and that a 6 year old shouldn't come home crying because of a page in a journal. I told her if necessary I'd buy her a new journal and have her copy all the work, but that she would resolve this with DD TODAY. I then sent DD away and told the teacher, "There's NO reason for a teacher to speak to a 6 year old in this manner and it will not continue."

Obviously, that was a different scenario to what's being discussed in terms of an accident in work due to absence vs trying to bring a grade up after not doing work all year. I shared it to show that there are some teachers that seem to have a superiority complex and don't speak appropriately to kids, but also that in my opinion what's acceptable in speaking to a young child who's still learning the ropes is far different to that of a middle schooler who knows what they need to do and has failed to do it. Had DD been 12 and asking for extra credit after not doing the work all semester, I wouldn't have had issue with the teacher addressing her like that.

I think the teacher (in the article) could have chosen to set an example for the kids by displaying more tact, but overall don't have a big problem with what was written. I think it would be inappropriate if everything/everyone in class was dealt with using a negative tone. Just sending a strongly-worded letter concerning extra credit that had likely been asked about several times by students who didn't do their work is understandable to me.