Villas at Grand Floridian Inquiry

I am very interested in purchasing DVC with my sister. We really enjoy the Polynesian as a resort, but recently fell in love with the Grand Floridian.

I have read how the Villas at the Grand Floridian is nearly impossible to purchase directly from Disney. I like saving money, and would definitely purchase a contract resale. Looking for a September/October use year with the intention of typically visiting in the Fall (October/November/December).

I realize VGF is one of the most expensive resale resorts per point. I am curious if purchasing VGF is actually worth it with the 11 month booking window. At our current stage in life, studios seem fine given the space we need. I would like my contract to cover at least a week in a lake/standard view studio. I see they range from approximately 108 - 128 points. I was looking at a 160+ point contract. We would eventually want to stay in a 1 bedroom and 2 bedroom to accommodate families by either banking/borrowing or adding on a contract in the future.

How hard is it to book VGF at the 11 month window for the months of October, November, and December? I realize the contracts have only existed a few years so there may not be many experiences in doing so, but I feel the only way we would have a chance to secure it would be to own VGF. With about only 47 of each room type, would I ever be able to get a studio without a fixed week?

I would also be interested in purchasing a 25 point Poly add-on (would check if VGF is an option) direct with DVC to get access to benefits like the Gold AP. I am curious if I can get rooms because the already high resale point price for VGF plus the addition of the direct add-on would almost make this entire DVC transaction the regular price from DVC for the number of points I am interested in.
There are many variables and personal choices. As posted, I'd probably buy VGF if you can pay cash and reserve 11 months out. I think the only feasible option is resale and then possibly add on retail Poly or elsewhere. This makes sense if and only if one plans to stay at VGF much of the time.
 
For your information towards making a decision to buy VGF, this is VGF's current booking pattern:

1. DVC's low to moderate season at WDW from the Monday after marathon weekend in Jan to to late Sep: Everything is open at 11 months out although on a rare occassion the studios might disappear very quickly in the morning at exactly 11 months out. Everything except studios, and on a rare occasion, 1BRs, is open even at 7 months out. Moreover, you have chances even for studios for several consecutive nights during the lowest demand times of the year: Feb 1 to the Thurs before Presidents' Day; late Feb after the Princess half marathon weekend to about mid-March, last week of April; and about July 10 to first week of Aug.

2. DVC's high to extremely high demand season from late Oct to marathon weekend in Jan: studios often fill 11 months out to the day and during extremely high demand times, they can often fill very quickly, e.g., within 60 seconds after the 11 month window opens online at 8 a.m. for a particular date and on occasion even before the 11 month window opens. Even 1BRs can go fairly quickly during the extremely high demand times at exactly 11 months out. The GV's and dedicated 2BRs are usually open beyond the eleven month window but tend to fill before the 7 month window opens although outside of the extremely high demand times, there is occasionally a chance for those even at 7 months out. The extremely high demand times are the Thurs before Columbus Day to the second weekend after Columbus Day; early Nov for the Thursday through Sunday period when Disney has the Wine & Dine half marathon weekend; the Thurs through Sun of the last F&W weekend particularly if the weekend itself includes Veteran's Day; the Tues through Fri of Thanksgiving week; the first two weeks of Dec, which can include last few days of Nov depending on when Dec 1 falls, Christmas week, particularly Dec 27 through 31, and the Thurs to Sun of marathon weekend in Jan.

The reason for VGF's availability issues with studios even at 11 months out basically boils down to the fact that Disney built too few studios and then oversold them, legally. VGF has only 47 studios, a like number of 1BRs, and the combination of the studios and 1BRs make up the 2BR lock-offs; it also has 47 dedicated 2BRs (meaning they can be only 2BRs) and 6 Grand Villas. BLT was the last DVC resort that opened at WDW before VGF. During a less than two year period after most of BLT had been sold out in 2011 to when VGF went on sale in 2013, a time during which inflation was essentailly non-existent, Disney in increments raised the point price of BLT by about 40%. When VGF went on sale to new purchasers at $150 a point, it was priced lower than the then highly-inflated price of BLT at $165 so Disney could promote VGF as a "bargain" when in reality the vast majority who had purchased at BLT had paid $120 or less per point. Morever, VGF's real price even exceeded BLT's inflated price because the points needed per night to reserve a room were higher than most of BLT's rooms. In addition, Disney set only a 100 point minimum purchasse for new purchasers. Disney's main target audience for sales is not the rich. With VGF, Disney definitely reached the level where its price per point and points needed per night meant that the vast majority of its potential marketing audience could afford to buy only enough points to get studios. However, under its total points system, Disney gets to sell all points for all rooms to purchasers, even if all the purchasers can only afford studios, and still remain within the laws that prohibit overselling of timeshare interests beyond a total that would exceed full occupancy for a year. Net effect is that Disney sold all the points at VGF (other than a very small percentage it always keeps at each resort) for all rooms, including the 2BRs and GV's, mainly to buyers who could only afford studios. That "oversell" of studios coupled with the low number of studios is why there is now a problem at 11 months out during the last quarter of the year.

Bottom line is that if you intend to buy at VGF to regularly get studios during Oct to Dec, do so with the awareness that you have a real risk of striking out at times even if you try to reserve at 11 months out. At the very least, you may have to put up with stress to get all nights you want and go through wait-listing.

Moreover, you need to be aware of what is called "walking" a reservation. Some members try to beat the 11 month window via walking. A member can make a reservaton at their home resort for up to 7 nights at exactly 11 months from day of arrival. What happens is that some members start in late Sep to reserve a studio for 7 nights or as many fewer nights that they have points for. Any such reservation prevents others from reserving the same room space for both days that the walker has reserved the room and days after, e.g., if you have a reservation from Sep 28 to Oct 4, 2017, on Oct 28, 2016 at exactly 11 months out, no one who tries to reserve on Oct 29, 30, or 31, or Nov 1, 2, or 3, 2016, can get that already filled room for any days beyond Oct 3. The walker will then either call daily or every few days after making the reservation to drop days at the beginning of the reservation and add days to the end. The walker continously does that until he has the actual days he wants, which could be as late as mid-Oct or even after. The walker thus beats the 11 month system by making the initial reservation for a time when there is no problem reserving 11 months out and then walks it to his desired time when such problems usually exist..

Walking is something that does occur with VGF for the last quarter of the year. If you become a VGF owner, you may even want to do it if you want to lower the risk of not being able to get a room in those extremely high demand times. However, and the reason would require more detail than I can through right now, if you want to be a walker for October vacation time then it is necassary that you have a Sep or before use year, because an Oct use year is going to prevent you from beginning that walk in Sep.

Also be aware that if you are considering purchasing Poly, Disney has been doing the same thing there -- overselling the studios by selling most of those bungalow points to purchasers who will resereve only studios (consider, who can really purchase a week in a bungalow annually during magic season, for which the points needed would cost close to $200,000?). However, Poly has thus far avoided any 11 month window issues due to the fact that there are a huge number of studios.
 
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Speaking from my own experience re: reservations toward the end of the year.

In both cases I attempted booking 11 months out at the exact moment that bookings opened:
- Booking for 11/02-11/07 2015 (5 nights). No availability for studios, only partial for everything else (no doubt already booked up by people with reservations beginning earlier than mine).
- Booking for 11/05-11/12 2016 (7 nights). Full availability at 8am, booked a studio within seconds of it opening up. Refreshed after the booking was complete and there was already no availability for studios.
 
Thank you, I feel an initial resale for VGF is the only way to go right now! I think I would experience some major buyers remorse if I had my heart set on a room and was never able to book it!


I think an October use year makes the most sense for me. I currently have my eye on a "fully-loaded" contract with a full year banked and full year coming in October of 2017. The price per point is on the higher side of what I have seen for VGF selling for ($153 pp).

I do not want to start out with too many or too little points. I figured 175 would be a happy medium. Would looking for a VGF add-on direct be completely unheard of? I guess I could always browse the resale market again for the same use year down the line, but I would like the "benefits" associated with direct additions.

If you find the perfect contract at $153, that's OK, but I recently bought a resale for a December use year at VGF at 186 points (including a fixed week) for $142.50 per point, and I have seen them go as low as $129/point. On the other hand, some sales go through at $157/pt. When I was buying 3 months ago, the median was about $146.

I guess I am just saying that if you have some time you can save money by making a reasonable offer, but not buying at the top of the market. I would recommend making an offer at a price you feel is fair, and then they can accept or not or counter. It also matters if it is a new listing or an aged listing. After a listing has been out there for 3 months or so, the sellers tend to be more willing to negotiate, but when the listing is brand new, they may resist an offer that is lower than the top of the bell curve.

There are several ways to look at the resale market prices...
1) Look at asking prices from the brokers. This is the worst way. You will end up overpaying.
2) Look at the ROFR thread from this board. You will see a small percentage of transactions (only the ones that posters here will self report), but it gives you a sample. And a further advantage is that you can see if the contract is loaded, stripped, or what-not. If you look at the first page of the ROFR thread, you can find recent transactions for VGF (and others) grouped together.
3) You can look at the Orange County, FL Comptrollers site. You can see the pricing on every contract that closed over a particular time period. This is the most accurate way of assessing the market, but it does not take into account loaded vs stripped. If you need instructions on this, shout back and I can let you know what I have learned about this. The loaded vs. stripped is not very well correlated with the pricing differences I have seen. But on the other hand, if you are buying stripped, your offer should be on the low end of the curve.
 
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For what it's worth, last weekend, I booked a studio at VGF for my wife and I over Star Wars half marathon weekend. Had no issue making that booking, and it was slightly less than 11 months out. Times that are in even more demand will likely be harder (this is a popular event, but it's also the third most expensive time, points-wise). I felt none of the stress that I have the past times I've tried to book there, it was nice. So yeah, there's a lot to be said for home resort priority at a small resort.
 
We just booked at standard view room at VGF for Jan 28 to Feb 1, 2017 at the 7 month window. Not our home resort. Plenty of 2 bedrooms as well but not lockouts
 
It does seem great, but I can imagine needing to take some time away. I have actually been wondering about the rental process. Is it pretty easy to offload the points provided you do it with ample time? My thinking is maybe one year you can't take the time or you simply plan on going elsewhere? Nice that it will always be there waiting for you :)!
Yes, it is easy to offload points, and thought a new buyer should be aware of this option for when the time comes that a little time away would be needed. The great thing is you can do it amongst this community on the DVC rental boards.

I have also rented from others when I was needing extra points or the "home court advantage" (11 month booking window). That too works well. I don't think you'll regret buying, as we haven't. It has been working out well. Best of luck and welcome!
 
For your information towards making a decision to buy VGF, this is VGF's current booking pattern:

1. DVC's low to moderate season at WDW from the Monday after marathon weekend in Jan to to late Sep: Everything is open at 11 months out although on a rare occassion the studios might disappear very quickly in the morning at exactly 11 months out. Everything except studios, and on a rare occasion, 1BRs, is open even at 7 months out. Moreover, you have chances even for studios for several consecutive nights during the lowest demand times of the year: Feb 1 to the Thurs before Presidents' Day; late Feb after the Princess half marathon weekend to about mid-March, last week of April; and about July 10 to first week of Aug.

2. DVC's high to extremely high demand season from late Oct to marathon weekend in Jan: studios often fill 11 months out to the day and during extremely high demand times, they can often fill very quickly, e.g., within 60 seconds after the 11 month window opens online at 8 a.m. for a particular date and on occasion even before the 11 month window opens. Even 1BRs can go fairly quickly during the extremely high demand times at exactly 11 months out. The GV's and dedicated 2BRs are usually open beyond the eleven month window but tend to fill before the 7 month window opens although outside of the extremely high demand times, there is occasionally a chance for those even at 7 months out. The extremely high demand times are the Thurs before Columbus Day to the second weekend after Columbus Day; early Nov for the Thursday through Sunday period when Disney has the Wine & Dine half marathon weekend; the Thurs through Sun of the last F&W weekend particularly if the weekend itself includes Veteran's Day; the Tues through Fri of Thanksgiving week; the first two weeks of Dec, which can include last few days of Nov depending on when Dec 1 falls, Christmas week, particularly Dec 27 through 31, and the Thurs to Sun of marathon weekend in Jan.

The reason for VGF's availability issues with studios even at 11 months out basically boils down to the fact that Disney built too few studios and then oversold them, legally. VGF has only 47 studios, a like number of 1BRs, and the combination of the studios and 1BRs make up the 2BR lock-offs; it also has 47 dedicated 2BRs (meaning they can be only 2BRs) and 6 Grand Villas. BLT was the last DVC resort that opened at WDW before VGF. During a less than two year period after most of BLT had been sold out in 2011 to when VGF went on sale in 2013, a time during which inflation was essentailly non-existent, Disney in increments raised the point price of BLT by about 40%. When VGF went on sale to new purchasers at $150 a point, it was priced lower than the then highly-inflated price of BLT at $165 so Disney could promote VGF as a "bargain" when in reality the vast majority who had purchased at BLT had paid $120 or less per point. Morever, VGF's real price even exceeded BLT's inflated price because the points needed per night to reserve a room were higher than most of BLT's rooms. In addition, Disney set only a 100 point minimum purchasse for new purchasers. Disney's main target audience for sales is not the rich. With VGF, Disney definitely reached the level where its price per point and points needed per night meant that the vast majority of its potential marketing audience could afford to buy only enough points to get studios. However, under its total points system, Disney gets to sell all points for all rooms to purchasers, even if all the purchasers can only afford studios, and still remain within the laws that prohibit overselling of timeshare interests beyond a total that would exceed full occupancy for a year. Net effect is that Disney sold all the points at VGF (other than a very small percentage it always keeps at each resort) for all rooms, including the 2BRs and GV's, mainly to buyers who could only afford studios. That "oversell" of studios coupled with the low number of studios is why there is now a problem at 11 months out during the last quarter of the year.

Bottom line is that if you intend to buy at VGF to regularly get studios during Oct to Dec, do so with the awareness that you have a real risk of striking out at times even if you try to reserve at 11 months out. At the very least, you may have to put up with stress to get all nights you want and go through wait-listing.

Moreover, you need to be aware of what is called "walking" a reservation. Some members try to beat the 11 month window via walking. A member can make a reservaton at their home resort for up to 7 nights at exactly 11 months from day of arrival. What happens is that some members start in late Sep to reserve a studio for 7 nights or as many fewer nights that they have points for. Any such reservation prevents others from reserving the same room space for both days that the walker has reserved the room and days after, e.g., if you have a reservation from Sep 28 to Oct 4, 2017, on Oct 28, 2016 at exactly 11 months out, no one who tries to reserve on Oct 29, 30, or 31, or Nov 1, 2, or 3, 2016, can get that already filled room for any days beyond Oct 3. The walker will then either call daily or every few days after making the reservation to drop days at the beginning of the reservation and add days to the end. The walker continously does that until he has the actual days he wants, which could be as late as mid-Oct or even after. The walker thus beats the 11 month system by masking the intial reservation for a time when there is no problem reserving 11 months out and then walks it to his desired time when such problems usually exist..

Walking is something that does occur with VGF for the last quarter of the year. If you become a VGF owner, you may even want to do it if you want to lower the risk of not being able to get a room in those extremely high demand times. However, and the reason would require more detail than I can through right now, if you want to be a walker for October vacation time then it is necassary that you have a Sep or before use year, because an Oct use year is going to prevent you from beginning that walk in Sep.

Also be aware that if you are considering purchasing Poly, Disney has been doing the same thing there -- overselling the studios by selling most of those bungalow points to purchasers who will resereve only studios (consider, who can really purchase a week in a bungalow annually during magic season, for which the points needed would cost close to $200,000?). However, Poly has thus far avoided any 11 month window issues due to the fact that there are a huge number of studios.

I had read that the first two weeks of December are brutal for availability! I currently have the first into the second booked this December at a regular Grand Floridian room. Food and Wine to through New Years will probably be my primary travel time with an additional trip on extra/expiring points in March/April for birthdays (all of my immediate family falls within 3 weeks of each other :) )

Based on the contract I was looking at, I should be able to do a studio or - bedroom no problem with 1 use year’s points. I am hoping to keep 1 full year banked at all times, and use it fully and only partially touch the actual current year since I would be able to still bank it if I had to cancel my reservation in September, October, or December and use the banked points from the previous year by August. A 2-bedroom would be worst case scenario, and require me to tap into that second year (definitely a possibility, but that much room is not necessary at this point in time).

I would be completely 100% ok with “walking” a reservation :) )I originally thought an October use year worked best since I would possibly want to travel in May, and could bank by the end of it, but May is much warmer and would probably be a last resort option if I needed to use points before they expired. Am I correct that if I have a reservation May – August with a September use year that the points HAD to be used by 8/31 or lost forever?

I am interested in a direct add-on for the “benefits” that Disney stripped away from resale on 4/4/16 (mainly AP discount and access to Gold AP). I had been looking into DVC prior to this announcement, and was very upset I did not act fast enough! My family really enjoys the Poly, and I figured I could take 1 small trip every 3 years with the add on, or rent it away, or split a stay with maybe two nights? Poly was tempting because the duration exceeds VGF, but I would prefer VGF (probably impossible as a direct add-on from what I have read) or even consider another resort that is cheaper since the benefits can be removed from any member at any time or that Disney could implement a minimum direct point level to keep said benefits down the line. The add-on would not be something I needed immediately because 1 year of a full-price pass wont kill me, but over 48/50 years that $200+ savings for 4+ will add up and make the buy-in worth it IMO.
 
I just wanted to thank everyone so much for the help they have been providing! I thought I had a pretty good grasp of this process, but your information has been invaluable in reinforcing concepts and addressing new thoughts/concerns.

Speaking from my own experience re: reservations toward the end of the year.

In both cases I attempted booking 11 months out at the exact moment that bookings opened:
- Booking for 11/02-11/07 2015 (5 nights). No availability for studios, only partial for everything else (no doubt already booked up by people with reservations beginning earlier than mine).
- Booking for 11/05-11/12 2016 (7 nights). Full availability at 8am, booked a studio within seconds of it opening up. Refreshed after the booking was complete and there was already no availability for studios.

Thank you for sharing your recent booking experience! It is reassuring to know that while it filled quickly, you were still able to book!

If you find the perfect contract at $153, that's OK, but I recently bought a resale for a December use year at VGF at 186 points (including a fixed week) for $142.50 per point, and I have seen them go as low as $129/point. On the other hand, some sales go through at $157/pt. When I was buying 3 months ago, the median was about $146.

I guess I am just saying that if you have some time you can save money by making a reasonable offer, but not buying at the top of the market. I would recommend making an offer at a price you feel is fair, and then they can accept or not or counter. It also matters if it is a new listing or an aged listing. After a listing has been out there for 3 months or so, the sellers tend to be more willing to negotiate, but when the listing is brand new, they may resist an offer that is lower than the top of the bell curve.

There are several ways to look at the resale market prices...
1) Look at asking prices from the brokers. This is the worst way. You will end up overpaying.
2) Look at the ROFR thread from this board. You will see a small percentage of transactions (only the ones that posters here will self report), but it gives you a sample. And a further advantage is that you can see if the contract is loaded, stripped, or what-not. If you look at the first page of the ROFR thread, you can find recent transactions for VGF (and others) grouped together.
3) You can look at the Orange County, FL Comptrollers site. You can see the pricing on every contract that closed over a particular time period. This is the most accurate way of assessing the market, but it does not take into account loaded vs stripped. If you need instructions on this, shout back and I can let you know what I have learned about this. The loaded vs. stripped is not very well correlated with the pricing differences I have seen. But on the other hand, if you are buying stripped, your offer should be on the low end of the curve.

I thought it was perfect until now possibly wanting a September use year in the event I needed to “walk” a reservation to secure a good time for Food and Wine. I definitely want 150 – 200 points primarily for the fall with intentions of using any extra in March/April. Am I correct in that if I had a trip booked in May with a September use year and it was cancelled that the points would have to be used by 8/31?

The contract I saw was actually just posted within the week so I assumed there would be little room for negotiation. I am hoping that if I get a contract, I can book December of 2017. That would require me finding one by no later than this September (allotting 2 full months for closing, ROFR, etc)?

I will definitely look at these other factors on the resale sites!

For what it's worth, last weekend, I booked a studio at VGF for my wife and I over Star Wars half marathon weekend. Had no issue making that booking, and it was slightly less than 11 months out. Times that are in even more demand will likely be harder (this is a popular event, but it's also the third most expensive time, points-wise). I felt none of the stress that I have the past times I've tried to book there, it was nice. So yeah, there's a lot to be said for home resort priority at a small resort.

Thank you for sharing your recent booking experience! I hope waking up early or “walking” a reservation will be less stressful than me waiting around for general public or AP discounts with possibilities of open rooms for my desired dates. I guess only time will tell :)

We just booked at standard view room at VGF for Jan 28 to Feb 1, 2017 at the 7 month window. Not our home resort. Plenty of 2 bedrooms as well but not lockouts

Thank you for sharing your recent booking experience at the 7-month window!

Yes, it is easy to offload points, and thought a new buyer should be aware of this option for when the time comes that a little time away would be needed. The great thing is you can do it amongst this community on the DVC rental boards.

I have also rented from others when I was needing extra points or the "home court advantage" (11 month booking window). That too works well. I don't think you'll regret buying, as we haven't. It has been working out well. Best of luck and welcome!

That is very reassuring! I imagine that VGF will have a high demand on the rental market 11+ months out. This community has been so helpful that I would be glad to assist anyone in staying if I did not need my potential future points.
 
It kind of stinks that some VGF owners are not able to book a stay at the 11 month window. That must be a real bummer for those who spent big money for their contracts. Part of the reason we picked BLT was knowing we would get our room at the 11 month window. Now that we are booking 1Bedrooms instead of studios we are on easy street as far as our 11 month home resort window.
 
It kind of stinks that some VGF owners are not able to book a stay at the 11 month window. That must be a real bummer for those who spent big money for their contracts. Part of the reason we picked BLT was knowing we would get our room at the 11 month window. Now that we are booking 1Bedrooms instead of studios we are on easy street as far as our 11 month home resort window.
It was predictable and part of the reason I've recommended the fixed week option from the get go. The problem owning the top options at the highest prices is that every time one uses it elsewhere, it reduces the value and effectively increases the price for that they bought. That's true when using at the 7 month window or for RCI/BVTC and triple true if one uses for cash type exchanges (DCL, CC, DC).
 











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