Verizon striking

Here is part of a letter written by Angel Feliciano, Executive Vice-President, Local 1101, CWA to Lowell McAdams, VZ CEO:

"No job is so important and no service is so urgent that we cannot take time to perform our work safely", yet today we work with dilapidated trucks, broken equipment and tools, deteriorated and abandoned poles, lack of safety equipment, and so on?



You mention in your ads how much you care and want to serve your customers, is that why you’ve abandoned your copper network, which serves
all of your customers in one capacity or another? Is that why you have allowed repair and installation times to escalate through the roof? Is that why you’ve chosen to skim the cream, and ignore residents throughout the state who want and need Fios? Is that why our customers must deal with contract employees in India and the Phillipines who neither know or understand their needs? "

Well, I can tell you that this is obviously true. I think VZ could really care less about copper (landline) residential customers. I have issues with my phone every time it rains. I called on the first day of the strike (8/7) hoping that it would be over soon, and my scheduled repair would be handled by a union technician, thinking I'd cancel it if the strike wasn't over.
The repair date they gave me was 8/16. 9 days to send someone out. And it's not like there was a back-up because we had already been on strike for a week...it was the very first morning!
So, yesterday, I go in to look at the order, which tells me no technician is needed for a repair. REALLY?! How is it going to get fixed then? By a miracle? It needs a technician. The cable/pair needs to be changed (UP ON THE POLE!) or they need to change the network interface box.
So, today I waited on hold for 66 minutes to talk to someone for 2 minutes who had NO IDEA why it would say that no technician was needed, and why the phone wasn't fixed. Hmmm....excellent customer service. I told her to go ahead and cancel the whole thing until the strike is over and a union technician can come out.
Wow. VZ is sure doing a good job!
 
Just wanted to say I totally support the Verizon workers and I hope you get a fair contract!
 
Under attack how? What rights? >>>

Part of me just wants to say "your kidding right?" you may not see it, it may not impact you, but I see a concentrated effort to break unions, remove their benefits, and replace any employee who makes decent wages or has decent benefits with lower wage workers willing to work for $10 and no benefits. Teachers, Postal Workers, Verizon, etc

IMO, a union only belongs in certain professions and for certain things. UMWA, UAW for example. They should fight for safe working conditions ONLY. Not argue over pay and benefits and time-off. Those should be negotiated between the individual employee and the employer.
>>

You didn't address what I found to be corporate greed. Do you not find any corporation to be greedy?
 
>>Part of me just wants to say "your kidding right?" you may not see it, it may not impact you, but I see a concentrated effort to break unions, remove their benefits, and replace any employee who makes decent wages or has decent benefits with lower wage workers willing to work for $10 and no benefits. Teachers, Postal Workers, Verizon, etc


You didn't address what I found to be corporate greed. Do you not find any corporation to be greedy?

Why don't you see that there are millions of workers that don't have union support that get paid well and get benefits? It is not only union workers that get those things. :confused3 Do you not find any union demand to be greedy?

I'm not sure I would classify a corporation wanting to be profitable as being greedy. But if you want to call it that then fine. IMO, both sides are being greedy then.

I'm also seeing a recurring theme in this thread by the union workers/supports.

"We're saving the middle class." - Umm, no you are not. You are looking out for yourself. Nothing wrong with just saying it.

"Only union workers know how to work hard and do a good job." Baloney on that. No one works any harder or any less than the other based on whether they are in a union or not.

As for the person that wants to cancel their service until the stirke is over. Well duh the temporary worker will have less expertise than the one that has been trained to do the job and has been doing it for years - UNION or NOT. That is common sense.

No one will change anyone's mind on this topic. I am mostly anti-union and nothing anyone on here says will change that. Just like the adamant union supporters not being able to see that the middle class can surivive without the unions.
 

Instead of making assumptions of my uselessness at my company, perhaps you might want to find out first hand was the situation is before you make further slams. I am the front line of the company. I am a proud TTA service technician whose job it is to see the customers face to face every day for the last 19 years. I deal with residence, business, and for 9 years of my life, large corporations. I listen, and then give them the perfect service that they have come to respect.
The interesting thing, SIR, is that when I get to the customer, I have to let them complain to me that they have waited so long for their installation or repair. I hear weeks constantly, and sometimes months. That is ridiculous! The company lets go of every worker, who is “not necessary”, and doesn’t replace them, and won’t give us the over time to get the additional work done. You’re right, the customer does suffer. The workers, perhaps not as shallow minded as many of you on this board have portrayed, is aware that we need the customers. We service them to the best of our abilities. The company has been turning its back on them, and we are left in the trenches to pick up the slack.
The perfect thank you for a job well done is telling us that we will now make less, and get less time off. Untrained, inexperienced contractors MIGHT NOT give the customer the care an expertise that I do. While picketing, I spoke to the people replacing us in the field. They told me directly, “I have no idea what I’m doing but Verizon is paying me.”
I try not to speak for other people, but in this particular case, as usual, you make me want to defend them. The inside workers are not dispensable! They are hard working and conscientious. I am sure that you love to call Verizon and sit through the automated menus as much as everyone does. You are doing that because Verizon chose to automate their “dispensable jobs”, then, if you are lucky enough to speak to a human being, can you understand their accent? Maybe or maybe not, because the dispensable American workers were eliminated, and now you speak to Bombay, Pakistan, the Philippians, China, or Mexico. To be fair, there are some Americans left, but not enough. That’s fine. The American workers didn’t need their jobs anyway right? It was so conscientious of the company to save a few dollars and automate their jobs away.
I have prided myself in being a realist most of my life. I try to look at both sides of an argument, and I am not stupid enough not to understand the company’s side of this. In many cases in my life I have debated issues from either side, and although I knew I was right, which I did, I conceded the argument because it simply wasn’t worth upsetting the other party. I won’t point specific fingers, but apparently 2 of you have this urgent need to have all you curiosities satisfied and a driving need to be right above all other’s needs, desires or fears. Since you just won’t drop it, live with the feeling that “Ok you won. You’re right. I’m wrong, and I don’t know why I haven’t seen it earlier.
Now if you drop the attacks, I, and maybe some others might not feel as bad. Ok? This is not being melodramatic, or a defeatist, it is simply saying that I’ve had enough.
I wasn't making comments about your usefulness or how good a worker you are. I was simply responding to another poster that cuts CAN happen even when a company is making record profits. Often, technology makes jobs obsolete. That's a not a reflection on how good an employee is at their job, but a simple fact of business. If you feel that's insulting, I'm sorry, it was not meant as an insult. Of course, it's fine for union supporters to make statements about non-union workers "aren't as good" simply because they don't belong to the union. No, you didn't say that, but others have.

It appears you (and others) think me (and others):
A) WANT you to lose pay and benefits
B) Feel you all are terrible in your jobs
C) Think unions should be outlawed
D) Think we want people to lose their jobs.

Speaking only for me, none of those are true. And what's wrong with asking questions (curiosity)? If you don't feel comfortable answering the questions, that's fine. I still don't know what's been asked that's so "personal", but that's up to you.
As far as customer satisfaction, if a company makes decisions that negatively affects the customers, the customers won't stick around and the company will go out of business. That's a gamble company owners/managers need to make.
If you read the thread, I even mentioned what benefits I felt would be worth fighting for.
 
Here is part of a letter written by Angel Feliciano, Executive Vice-President, Local 1101, CWA to Lowell McAdams, VZ CEO:

"No job is so important and no service is so urgent that we cannot take time to perform our work safely", yet today we work with dilapidated trucks, broken equipment and tools, deteriorated and abandoned poles, lack of safety equipment, and so on?



You mention in your ads how much you care and want to serve your customers, is that why you’ve abandoned your copper network, which serves
all of your customers in one capacity or another? Is that why you have allowed repair and installation times to escalate through the roof? Is that why you’ve chosen to skim the cream, and ignore residents throughout the state who want and need Fios? Is that why our customers must deal with contract employees in India and the Phillipines who neither know or understand their needs? "

Well, I can tell you that this is obviously true. I think VZ could really care less about copper (landline) residential customers. I have issues with my phone every time it rains. I called on the first day of the strike (8/7) hoping that it would be over soon, and my scheduled repair would be handled by a union technician, thinking I'd cancel it if the strike wasn't over.
The repair date they gave me was 8/16. 9 days to send someone out. And it's not like there was a back-up because we had already been on strike for a week...it was the very first morning!
So, yesterday, I go in to look at the order, which tells me no technician is needed for a repair. REALLY?! How is it going to get fixed then? By a miracle? It needs a technician. The cable/pair needs to be changed (UP ON THE POLE!) or they need to change the network interface box.
So, today I waited on hold for 66 minutes to talk to someone for 2 minutes who had NO IDEA why it would say that no technician was needed, and why the phone wasn't fixed. Hmmm....excellent customer service. I told her to go ahead and cancel the whole thing until the strike is over and a union technician can come out.
Wow. VZ is sure doing a good job!

Certainly you are aware that hundreds of letters just like this came into the company while your union was still under contract. These types of issues certainly aren't NON existent whether or not the union is working or on strike.

And it's kind of ironic that so many issues for the strikers services have suddenly come up since this strike occurred. So they all call in, clogging up the lines with petty, false, and absurd requests JUST to see how long it will take their temp workers to do the same job they've been doing for oh say 19 years. OR, you guys call in, and harass the workers, just to clog up the lines. So...maybe if you took the number of striker calls out of the equation and let these people service only customers who have VALID concerns I think that number of successful calls, resolutions, etc would probably scare you more than you're willing to admit.

And to the mention on the boards that "they aren't taking sales calls or new installs, that's why their productivity, etc. is at a high percentage"...I can assure you that one of my closest friends who was sent to NY is kicking BUTT in sales right now. Her manager has already joked with her that she should move out to NY and take a full time position (no way would she ever!).

All I'm trying to say is that you can show several cases of where service calls aren't being completed, but VZ has also produced multiple emails, videos, written letters from customers patting VZ managers on the back for stepping up and getting out on the front lines, getting them back in service, or completing their service calls in a very timely manner regardless of the strike.
 
Certainly you are aware that hundreds of letters just like this came into the company while your union was still under contract. These types of issues certainly aren't NON existent whether or not the union is working or on strike.

And it's kind of ironic that so many issues for the strikers services have suddenly come up since this strike occurred. So they all call in, clogging up the lines with petty, false, and absurd requests JUST to see how long it will take their temp workers to do the same job they've been doing for oh say 19 years. OR, you guys call in, and harass the workers, just to clog up the lines. So...maybe if you took the number of striker calls out of the equation and let these people service only customers who have VALID concerns I think that number of successful calls, resolutions, etc would probably scare you more than you're willing to admit.

And to the mention on the boards that "they aren't taking sales calls or new installs, that's why their productivity, etc. is at a high percentage"...I can assure you that one of my closest friends who was sent to NY is kicking BUTT in sales right now. Her manager has already joked with her that she should move out to NY and take a full time position (no way would she ever!).

All I'm trying to say is that you can show several cases of where service calls aren't being completed, but VZ has also produced multiple emails, videos, written letters from customers patting VZ managers on the back for stepping up and getting out on the front lines, getting them back in service, or completing their service calls in a very timely manner regardless of the strike.

I highly doubt that union members are "clogging up the lines" to harass managers. I was calling for an actual trouble and waited 66 minutes for them to tell me they had no clue. And I wanted to make clear that I do not want a "replacement worker" coming out to most likely mess it up even more.

Verizon has these issues ALL the time. Look at lisaross's husband's post of the customers yelling at HIM because they had to wait weeks, or even a month to get a repair or install. That has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the fact that VZ really doesn't care about it's copper residential customers. But they place the blame of their landline woes onto us now. Hmmm, maybe if they actually did have good customer service on this, the landlines wouldn't be having such problems.

And the bolded above is more VZ spin. If the emails/letters are in fact real, I would say they were from other management calling in, and then saying what a "wonderful" job the replacement workers are doing. Because I sure haven't found that. And I know many people who are specifically waiting until the strike is over before they even call in with anything.
 
/
FAMILYOFFIVE, I have a question for you. You live in California, a big earthquake prone area. In preparing buildings and bridge for an earthquake, would you rather they hire an union worker or a non union worker? The union worker will have a nice wage and benefit package and will be sure to do a superb job. In order to save money, maybe the job was contracted out. The contractor hires some undocumented workers and they are paid minimum wage or below. How safe do you think your structures will be then??

Now I in no way hope California has an earthquake or inferior building. I thought if a situation hit closer to your home, maybe you would get off your high horse.

I was hoping this thread would be closed already because the universe certainly doesn't need the replies of the toxic people on this thread. I'm saying goodbye to it too. Lisaross and family, hang in there, there are plenty of people to support you.

Climbing out of my saddle here. You honestly believe that only union workers provide quality work? If that is the case, 93% of the American work force are inferior to union workers? Why do you think union membership is shrinking in the United States if only union workers do superior work?

As for hoping that this thread is closed, it was started by a Verizon customer concerned about whether or not her bill would increase as a result of this strike.

Still have not understood how anyone can read this thread and believe that anyone is hoping that people lose jobs :confused3. That hasn't been and isn't the case in the 35+ pages that I have read.
 
I highly doubt that union members are "clogging up the lines" to harass managers. I was calling for an actual trouble and waited 66 minutes for them to tell me they had no clue. And I wanted to make clear that I do not want a "replacement worker" coming out to most likely mess it up even more.

Verizon has these issues ALL the time. Look at lisaross's husband's post of the customers yelling at HIM because they had to wait weeks, or even a month to get a repair or install. That has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the fact that VZ really doesn't care about it's copper residential customers. But they place the blame of their landline woes onto us now. Hmmm, maybe if they actually did have good customer service on this, the landlines wouldn't be having such problems.

And the bolded above is more VZ spin. If the emails/letters are in fact real, I would say they were from other management calling in, and then saying what a "wonderful" job the replacement workers are doing. Because I sure haven't found that. And I know many people who are specifically waiting until the strike is over before they even call in with anything.

Just curious...how exactly did you think your call would come to any satisfactory resolution when you call for a repair (knowing the union is on strike) yet you don't want a replacement worker to fix it? What kind of resolution were you looking for when the call was placed? Kind of a no win for VZ. Either you wanted it fixed or you didn't...regardless of who did the work. What if all of us non-union people called in and said "I'd like someone to come out to fix X but I do NOT want a union worker completing the work.":confused3
 
I highly doubt that union members are "clogging up the lines" to harass managers. I was calling for an actual trouble and waited 66 minutes for them to tell me they had no clue. And I wanted to make clear that I do not want a "replacement worker" coming out to most likely mess it up even more.

Verizon has these issues ALL the time. Look at lisaross's husband's post of the customers yelling at HIM because they had to wait weeks, or even a month to get a repair or install. That has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the fact that VZ really doesn't care about it's copper residential customers. But they place the blame of their landline woes onto us now. Hmmm, maybe if they actually did have good customer service on this, the landlines wouldn't be having such problems.

And the bolded above is more VZ spin. If the emails/letters are in fact real, I would say they were from other management calling in, and then saying what a "wonderful" job the replacement workers are doing. Because I sure haven't found that. And I know many people who are specifically waiting until the strike is over before they even call in with anything.

And waiting 66 minutes wouldn't have happened had the union members actually been working. Their stirking is hurting the customer.
 
Familyoffive, hope your horse is cooling down now:) I didn't mean to imply that only union workers can do a good job. When a company wants to increase profits by scaling back on pay and wages, what type of employee will they attract? We know there is no incentive for skilled workers to take a job with little pay or benefits. Oh, wait a worker will jump at a chance for a job with low pay because "that's the way the economy is now" So the corporations win all around. They can make record profits while ensuring a steady supply of cheap labor. Too bad that labor pool will consist of once proud Americans who must now take any pittance of a job offered by Corporate America. Is that the American dream?? Precedence is important, so that is why so many of us is hoping the Union wins a fair contract. Fair meaning causing no economic harm to faithful members who have proudly done a good job for their company.
 
And waiting 66 minutes wouldn't have happened had the union members actually been working. Their stirking is hurting the customer.

Are you serious??? They are going without pay for uncertain amount of time because they are fighting for what they deserve!!!! If Verizon wasn't being such a horrible company theses people would not be on strike! Blame Verizon for the long wait time and slow service bc if they weren't so greedy and selfish these people would be back at work today!
 
Are you serious??? They are going without pay for uncertain amount of time because they are fighting for what they deserve!!!! If Verizon wasn't being such a horrible company theses people would not be on strike! Blame Verizon for the long wait time and slow service bc if they weren't so greedy and selfish these people would be back at work today!

In your opinion what do they deserve?

And do you really believe this is entirely verizon's fault and the union is blameless?
 
I also wanted to voice my support for the Verizon workers! I fully support you! Verizon is one of the companies you can call and speak with someone from the area, and they always do a good job. I had the best experience when they did a new install at my home in New England! In my new area we were forced to get Comcrap and we had the opposite experience..

It comes down to the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. If the company is profitable, then the workers who helped make this profit possible should be treated fairly. Those installers that left us so happy with the company definately helped keep us as a customer until we moved to a place they did not service, otherwise we would still be customers. Comcrap on the other hand is getting dumped when we move in Sept. The service when they come out and when you have to call are like night and day compared to Verizon.
 
I also wanted to voice my support for the Verizon workers! I fully support you! Verizon is one of the companies you can call and speak with someone from the area, and they always do a good job. I had the best experience when they did a new install at my home in New England! In my new area we were forced to get Comcrap and we had the opposite experience..

It comes down to the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. If the company is profitable, then the workers who helped make this profit possible should be treated fairly. Those installers that left us so happy with the company definately helped keep us as a customer until we moved to a place they did not service, otherwise we would still be customers. Comcrap on the other hand is getting dumped when we move in Sept. The service when they come out and when you have to call are like night and day compared to Verizon.

Comcast is union too. So that tells me that it is the company that is poor/good and has NOTHING to do with the fact the employees are unionized.
 
Certainly you are aware that hundreds of letters just like this came into the company while your union was still under contract. These types of issues certainly aren't NON existent whether or not the union is working or on strike.

And it's kind of ironic that so many issues for the strikers services have suddenly come up since this strike occurred. So they all call in, clogging up the lines with petty, false, and absurd requests JUST to see how long it will take their temp workers to do the same job they've been doing for oh say 19 years. OR, you guys call in, and harass the workers, just to clog up the lines. So...maybe if you took the number of striker calls out of the equation and let these people service only customers who have VALID concerns I think that number of successful calls, resolutions, etc would probably scare you more than you're willing to admit.

And to the mention on the boards that "they aren't taking sales calls or new installs, that's why their productivity, etc. is at a high percentage"...I can assure you that one of my closest friends who was sent to NY is kicking BUTT in sales right now. Her manager has already joked with her that she should move out to NY and take a full time position (no way would she ever!).

All I'm trying to say is that you can show several cases of where service calls aren't being completed, but VZ has also produced multiple emails, videos, written letters from customers patting VZ managers on the back for stepping up and getting out on the front lines, getting them back in service, or completing their service calls in a very timely manner regardless of the strike.

Are you kidding? With the billion dollar budget that Vz has sunk into their advertising campaign, of course people want their service. It doesn't take the rent a wreck sales team to say ok. It takes the skilled workers to actually install the jobs. And to be perfectly clear, THERE ARE NO INSTALLATIONS BEING DONE DURING THE STRIKE, only repairs.
The letters praising the managers stepping up will be few and far between, because only a small percentage of the managers used to be techs and know the job. The rest of them could try all they want. I remember how useless new employees could be. The old joke was I can't wait for the newbie to come into my area because of the damage that he'll do to make overtime for the rest of us.
Residence has virtually no chance of getting in, because as Vz always handles it, business’s always gets priority. As for the 83 year old grandma, sorry.
When I had my own business, I found that a simple compliment went a long way to inspire people. Even if they weren’t that good, a compliment always helped. A simple little white lie like saying “you’re hitting it out of the park, or wow maybe you should move here and do this full time,” sounds like the stuff that I used to tell my guys. It gave them bragging rights. But I’m quite sure that your friend from Krypton is in all actuality so much better than all the experienced workers.
As for the service calls being backed up because union workers are clogging the lines, I don’t know where to begin. They have been backed up for several months. Time after time service techs get yelled at the second we walk through the door. “Where have you been? It’s been weeks!” All we could do was apologize. But, you in your infinite wisdom are completely accurate. There would be no back up right now at all if the “union workers” wouldn’t clog up the lines. For that matter neither I nor any of my friends wants to contact Vz for any reason right now that includes claiming false repair or installation reports.
One thing that I can tell you though is that when techs or other Vz workers have problems on their lines, they fix it for themselves or for each other as a courtesy. Why would we do that now? If I had a problem with my own line while working, I would take care of it. If I have a problem now, you bet your bottom dollar that I’m going to call it in. First of all I am paying for quality service. And second of all, as of now, I don’t work for them.
If you choose to insult us, please continue on the path you’re taking.
 
Familyoffive, hope your horse is cooling down now:) I didn't mean to imply that only union workers can do a good job. When a company wants to increase profits by scaling back on pay and wages, what type of employee will they attract? We know there is no incentive for skilled workers to take a job with little pay or benefits. Oh, wait a worker will jump at a chance for a job with low pay because "that's the way the economy is now" So the corporations win all around. They can make record profits while ensuring a steady supply of cheap labor. Too bad that labor pool will consist of once proud Americans who must now take any pittance of a job offered by Corporate America. Is that the American dream?? Precedence is important, so that is why so many of us is hoping the Union wins a fair contract. Fair meaning causing no economic harm to faithful members who have proudly done a good job for their company.

I understand the idea of fair. What is troubling is the belief that everything should be the way it has always been or it is an attack against everyone else in the work force. Who doesn't want the better things of the past? As a small child growing up on the East Coast, I remember getting 3 candy bars for a quarter at Grants. That's not going to happen anytime soon. If the strike is a success and the workers win every demand, great job! I just find it disengenuous to claim that the strike is for the benefit of everyone else. As for attacking corporate America, if this were not a contract year would these claims be published by the unions? Just as is stated that the corporations need employees to be profitable, the employees need corporations to employ them. Somehow both sides need to compromise and put people back to work. It isn't onesided, all parties involved should stop casting stones, return to the bargaining table and stay at it until a deal is done. Nobody is going to win and as others have stated, the best solution will involve both sides being unhappy with the outcome. That is what happens when you compromise. Here's hoping that the strike ends soon and that everyone can find a way to get along.
 
Familyoffive, hope your horse is cooling down now:) I didn't mean to imply that only union workers can do a good job. When a company wants to increase profits by scaling back on pay and wages, what type of employee will they attract? We know there is no incentive for skilled workers to take a job with little pay or benefits. Oh, wait a worker will jump at a chance for a job with low pay because "that's the way the economy is now" So the corporations win all around. They can make record profits while ensuring a steady supply of cheap labor. Too bad that labor pool will consist of once proud Americans who must now take any pittance of a job offered by Corporate America. Is that the American dream?? Precedence is important, so that is why so many of us is hoping the Union wins a fair contract. Fair meaning causing no economic harm to faithful members who have proudly done a good job for their company.
Thank you for clarifying your statement. Unfortunately, we are at a time when employers hold even more power than usual. Yes, employers can offer anything down to minimum wage and the employee has to choose whether to accept that wage for the job or not. The employee is free to turn the rate (and job) down and try to find employment somewhere else. If enough "good" workers turn down the job the employer will be forced to either increase pay or benefits.

I'd like to know how anyone thinks companies can be FORCED to pay a certain amount (other than minimum wage) or provide certain benefits.
 
Just curious...how exactly did you think your call would come to any satisfactory resolution when you call for a repair (knowing the union is on strike) yet you don't want a replacement worker to fix it? What kind of resolution were you looking for when the call was placed? Kind of a no win for VZ. Either you wanted it fixed or you didn't...regardless of who did the work. What if all of us non-union people called in and said "I'd like someone to come out to fix X but I do NOT want a union worker completing the work.":confused3

You have that prerogative. For that matter I kind of hope that you do. You may get a good long relationship with your “skilled” technician every time he comes back. I’ve seen it. Our competition is called clecs. I deal with them all the time. I always get amused when they ask me how to do stuff. Or what things mean. These are “skilled non-union techs”. They’re fantastic. I hope you have a good long relationship with them. My customers usually thank me for cleaning up their mess when they come back to Verizon.
 
Are you serious??? They are going without pay for uncertain amount of time because they are fighting for what they deserve!!!! If Verizon wasn't being such a horrible company theses people would not be on strike! Blame Verizon for the long wait time and slow service bc if they weren't so greedy and selfish these people would be back at work today!
First, what do the union workers deserve? Please don't tell me a "fair" wage without defining what is "fair".
If Verizion is such a horrible company, why does anyone want to work for them in the first place?
 

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