Vaccine harassment

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I am just amazed that so many actually believe it is perfectly acceptable to ask people their vaccine status right out in the open in front of others.
No one is forcing anyone to get the vaccine. This boss simply asked if his employees were going to get it. That's it. And yeah, the scientists DO pretty much agree at this point that being fully vaccinated means you will ALMOST NEVER spread the virus to anyone else. They have released several studies at this point that all show the same thing.

No that is not what happened. :rotfl2:
 
This boss simply asked if his employees were going to get it. That's it.
To be fair that's not quite what he was doing. My husband's company asked via a link interest level of employees getting the covid vaccine. That is simply asking. That was all it was. That's as far as it went.

In this instance it went beyond that. "The other employee told him that she was hesitant with the vaccine and was going to wait a little while to do more research. Then the owner started berating her, saying things like “Don’t you care about protecting other people” and “What else do you need to learn about. Millions of people got it and are fine so it’s safe”. )"

If it was simply asking and that was it then personal feelings don't mix in there. The franchise owner asks "will you be getting the covid vaccine". That's asking simply. If employees answer, the franchise owner marks whatever that answer is down whether that is "yes" "no", "not right now going to do more research" "I don't feel comfortable discussing this with you". No further discussion occurs, no personal feelings about how he feels about people who do or don't get the vaccine. I understand where posters say the daughter should have answered plainly (and in light of how he reacted to another employee) but I don't think we can also say he was just asking simply and that was it, not quite what transpired.

Personal viewpoints (which is why in my first comment I errored on saying that about the owner as in how he might be viewing the situation) can go both ways. Either the franchise owner needs to keep it as impartial as can be and not bring his personal viewpoints into it or he needs to accept that by doing so employees may bring their personal viewpoints into it as well and it may cause conflict for everyone. For as much as it's been discussed the daughter needs to essentially buck up and deal with it the franchise owner has culpability here too in making a personal discussion out of something that could have been more to the point of limited answers.
 
I am just amazed that so many actually believe it is perfectly acceptable to ask people their vaccine status right out in the open in front of others.


No that is not what happened. :rotfl2:

Yes, that is what happened. I didn't say he asked nicely or wasn't a complete jerk about it. But he didn't walk in there and announce that everyone would be required to get it, or they would be fired. He didn't walk in and demand to see vaccine cards. What happened was that he ASKED the employees what they were planning to do.
 
DH's employer has reopened their office here, and the rules are simple. You do not have to mask at your desk. If you leave your desk, for any reason, you mask up. If you are vaccinated, you can eat/drink in the breakroom or at your desk. If you are not, you cannot eat or drink at your desk or in the breakroom. You must sanitize when you come back to your desk; when you enter the offices; or as you enter/leave the breakroom. No handshakes, only elbow bumps. If you go to visit someone else at their desk/office, you have to let them know, so they can also mask up before you get there. Wipes are at each desk, and they are supposed to wipe down keyboards/mice/phones/etc in the morning when they arrive, and after lunch.

His company is not forcing vaccinations, but they did offer PTO for vaccination/recovery days (up to a week for each shot); and the office manager has said that if everyone in the office is vaccinated, they will remove the mask wearing/food/drink requirements altogether. It's not going to happen, as there are at least 3 people who are ardent anti-vax/world is flat/anti-mask (but wearing because otherwise they don't work), politician worshiping people. DH is confused on the world is flat guy....he's a geologist; he says 'did he not study his science?' :rotfl2:
*Record scratch.* OK, I don’t want to derail the thread, but I just have to say- a GEOLOGIST thinks the world is flat?!

Whaaaaaaaat.
 

This upset her so much that she actually ended up leaving before the end of her shift. She called her immediate supervisor and spoke with her before leaving, and again the next day. She told her she would like to speak with someone in corporate about the owner making her job a hostile environment to work in. Her immediate supervisor said that speaking with corporate would only bring it back onto herself.
Any suggestions? She has enjoyed this job up until now, and is now apprehensive to return. UGH!
The EEOC laws were clarified during the SARS and Avian Flu scares to permit asking employees (or anyone coming into a place of business) medical questions if they relate to spreading the disease.

While I agree with this business owner's desire to keep his employees and customers safe, this is a heinously unprofessional approach to employee communication.
 
DH's employer has reopened their office here, and the rules are simple. You do not have to mask at your desk. If you leave your desk, for any reason, you mask up. If you are vaccinated, you can eat/drink in the breakroom or at your desk. If you are not, you cannot eat or drink at your desk or in the breakroom. You must sanitize when you come back to your desk; when you enter the offices; or as you enter/leave the breakroom. No handshakes, only elbow bumps. If you go to visit someone else at their desk/office, you have to let them know, so they can also mask up before you get there. Wipes are at each desk, and they are supposed to wipe down keyboards/mice/phones/etc in the morning when they arrive, and after lunch.

His company is not forcing vaccinations, but they did offer PTO for vaccination/recovery days (up to a week for each shot); and the office manager has said that if everyone in the office is vaccinated, they will remove the mask wearing/food/drink requirements altogether. It's not going to happen, as there are at least 3 people who are ardent anti-vax/world is flat/anti-mask (but wearing because otherwise they don't work), politician worshiping people. DH is confused on the world is flat guy....he's a geologist; he says 'did he not study his science?' :rotfl2:

Where are they supposed to eat? The bathroom? Their car?
 
With the abysmal vaccine acceptance rate, companies are going to have to make tough decisions.

Die on their moral mountain as their pool of potential vaccinated employees may not be large enough to adequately staff or bow to those unwilling to be vaccinated.
 
Yes, that is what happened. I didn't say he asked nicely or wasn't a complete jerk about it. But he didn't walk in there and announce that everyone would be required to get it, or they would be fired. He didn't walk in and demand to see vaccine cards. What happened was that he ASKED the employees what they were planning to do.
Respectfully your comment was "This boss simply asked if his employees were going to get it. That's it." That isn't what happened. In the interest of conversation you're bringing to the table things that weren't on the table before. Neither I nor the other poster even brought up requiring, fired, demanding to see vaccine cards, etc. We responded to your comment that he simply asked if his employees were getting it. No he didn't simply ask. Even my viewpoint would have been slightly different if all he had was a clipboard marking down answers and walked out. I still would have viewed it as unprofessional to discuss out in the open though.
 
Pump the brakes a bit. Own up when you misspeak...
You said (bold-italics are mine)
No. They are not and no they don't need to be discussed in private. Vaccine status is not protected medical information, which is why it can be demanded by public schools.
Then, after being shown accurate analysis of the law stating "Employers may ask their employees whether they have received the vaccine...", and "Once this information is obtained, it may not be disclosed by the employer without the employee’s consent.”
It is protected medical information ONLY in terms of what a medical provider can legally share without the consent of the patient. People really have a misunderstanding of how HIPAA works.

Asking an employees to share private medical history with other employees is a disclosure and it is 100% actionable. Boss has a right to ask your vaccine status, but once he knows it he must take the same care to keep it private as a medical provider or face sanctions.

He should have kept his opinions to himself and quietly posted a notice that all employees must submit proof of vaccination or be suspended until public vaccination rates reach herd immunity.
 
It should be as simple as, “Are you vaccinated? No? Here is some information on how to obtain the vaccine.”

Done. On both sides.

The boss has no right to ask why or why not unless it’s mandated and they need a waiver... And even then the boss’s response should be, “No? Okay, I’ll need your medical waiver.”.
 
Asking an employees to share private medical history with other employees is a disclosure and it is 100% actionable. Boss has a right to ask your vaccine status, but once he knows it he must take the same care to keep it private as a medical provider or face sanctions.
How is that actionable if the employee is the one sharing the information? The employee can decline and request to share in private if they do not wish to inform others within earshot of their vaccination status.
 
The conflict right now is that the vaccines are not FDA approved - yet. Universities have already said they will require you to get the vaccine to attend classes once the vaccines are FDA approved. I would expect a lot of businesses will follow suit. . Until then (and believe me, I want everyone to get vaccinated - I'm pretty insistent about it), they can't require it. Dr. Fauchi said yesterday that he expects FDA approval "soon". It can't come soon enough.

FWIW - IMHO, your DDs employer was being a jerk - vaccine or no.
 
With the abysmal vaccine acceptance rate, companies are going to have to make tough decisions.

Die on their moral mountain as their pool of potential vaccinated employees may not be large enough to adequately staff or bow to those unwilling to be vaccinated.
I would like to see a grading system like restaurants get from health inspections. Like a big green A if 95%+ employees are vaccinated and so on. If I knew that only had 50% of the staff at a restaurant were protected, when the vaccine is easily available and costs the person nothing, I would never eat there again.
 
Pump the brakes a bit. Own up when you misspeak...
You said (bold-italics are mine)

Then, after being shown accurate analysis of the law stating "Employers may ask their employees whether they have received the vaccine...", and "Once this information is obtained, it may not be disclosed by the employer without the employee’s consent.”


Asking an employees to share private medical history with other employees is a disclosure and it is 100% actionable. Boss has a right to ask your vaccine status, but once he knows it he must take the same care to keep it private as a medical provider or face sanctions.

He should have kept his opinions to himself and quietly posted a notice that all employees must submit proof of vaccination or be suspended until public vaccination rates reach herd immunity.

Yup... No clue why so many are simply not seeing the issue here and think this is about a right to knowledge whenever, wherever and however vs handling conversations in an appropriate and private manner.
 
Pump the brakes a bit. Own up when you misspeak...
You said (bold-italics are mine)

Then, after being shown accurate analysis of the law stating "Employers may ask their employees whether they have received the vaccine...", and "Once this information is obtained, it may not be disclosed by the employer without the employee’s consent.”


Asking an employees to share private medical history with other employees is a disclosure and it is 100% actionable. Boss has a right to ask your vaccine status, but once he knows it he must take the same care to keep it private as a medical provider or face sanctions.

He should have kept his opinions to himself and quietly posted a notice that all employees must submit proof of vaccination or be suspended until public vaccination rates reach herd immunity.

Whatever. I worked in a place where I was required to ask new hires and existing employees, in front of other employees, about vaccine status and TB test results. It was very much not a violation of HIPAA, as I was the HR person. They did not have to say anything to me out loud, they could choose to come to my desk and show me the documents I needed, but at the end of the day, we REQUIRED those vaccines and negative TB tests as a condition of employment, and if an employee refused to provide either, they could be fired or simply would not be hired, or their new hire status would be placed on a a conditional hold until they did provide the documents.

from:
https://www.accurate.com/blog/covid...porate-culture-employers-mull-their-approach/
HIPAA Applies to Healthcare Organizations
While their questions and concerns may create consternation, most organizations can rest assured that HIPAA considerations don’t impact them, says Andrew Rozo, an attorney in New York practicing healthcare law.

HIPAA, Rozo says, “only applies to healthcare professionals and their affiliates. Most HR professionals do not need to worry about that law. They can safely ask for health information.” The law, Rozo explains, was designed to prevent healthcare professionals from sharing patient information. However, he adds, this can become more complicated when the employer is also a healthcare provider.

“Simply asking for information does not violate HIPAA,” Rozo says. “Disclosing or using information without permission and unlawfully is the violation. Administrative walls can be put in place to ensure that the employee is the one voluntarily disclosing their health information. This way, HIPAA is not violated.”

In addition, he points out, when it comes to other COVID-19 information, “some things must be disclosed by the employee when it comes to the new benefits and family leave laws.”

Aside from HIPAA, though, there are some additional considerations employers should be aware of, says healthcare attorney Heather Macre who leads the healthcare practice group at Fennemore. If a vaccine is provided as part of a HIPAA-covered health plan or wellness program, says Macre, “employees should be asked to sign a HIPAA authorization permitting the health plan to notify the employer of the date, type, and fact of the vaccine’s administration.”

However, she says, if the vaccine is offered not as part of a health plan, but as workplace safety or public health measure for all employees—whether they participate in the health plan or not—HIPAA would not apply. Why? Because the employer would be acting solely in the capacity as an employer, she says. Still, she says: “Even if HIPAA does not apply to an employer’s COVID-19 vaccine program, HIPAA may apply to the vaccination provider itself, thus necessitating a HIPAA authorization for disclosure to the employer.”
 
I would like to see a grading system like restaurants get from health inspections. Like a big green A if 95%+ employees are vaccinated and so on. If I knew that only had 50% of the staff at a restaurant were protected, when the vaccine is easily available and costs the person nothing, I would never eat there again.
An interesting idea.

Gives people a choice.

I ignore the current health code scores and would ignore the vaccine score as well. My dad worked as a health food inspector for a long time. If I really cared about food sanitation I would never eat out.
 
How is that actionable if the employee is the one sharing the information? The employee can decline and request to share in private if they do not wish to inform others within earshot of their vaccination status.
A couple of reasons.
Because, while in this case the employer has a legitimate interest in this information, they must take the same steps to keep it private as a medical facility would and that generally means limiting exposure of that information to people who do not need to know it. Just like a Doctor will not ask a patient their sexual history out in a crowded waiting room.

And also because of the inherent nature of employer-employee relationships. Especially with the employer being the owner of the business, 'asking' a subordinate something is the same as telling them to tell you. If a boss 'asks' a janitor to sweep the floor, you know he's not really asking right?
 
While this is true, they also don't have to employ you. A drug screening is medical information that pretty much all of us have shared with our employers at some point so these things are more gray area than written in stone.
I think this is what people are missing. You absolutely have the right to not share medical information including vaccination status. But, if it's a condition of your employment, your employer has the right to fire you for refusing to do so.

It's kind of like when people yell "Free Speech" after every incident where someone is fired. Free speech means you have the right to say whatever you want. Free speech does not mean that you are exempt from the consequences of saying whatever you want.

Sigh. What ever happened to HIPAA - or anything related to people's medical choices being their own private business?
That's not what HIPAA is though. HIPAA is intended to protect sensitive patient health information from being disclosed without the patient’s consent or knowledge. If your employer is asking you directly for the information, they are not obtaining it without your knowledge or consent.

HIPAA also only applies to certain "covered entities" which include healthcare providers, health insurance plans, etc. The law does not extend beyond healthcare. So your doctor can't share your information, but your neighbor or someone else can. HIPAA also doesn't apply to schools. Once you give your child's vaccination records to their school, it's no longer protected information under HIPAA; it instead falls under FERPA.

Isn't a more accurate parallel a company's ability to drug test? In most states it's allowed if the employer can prove that this is needed to ensure health and safety.
I don't even think a parallel is necessary. There is already a precedent for employers requiring vaccination records. Depending on where you live or what field you work in, people have been required to provide immunization info to their employers for decades. I think the conflict here is changing the rules or requirements after you are already employed rather than being aware that it was a requirement that you agreed to when you were hired.
 
if the vaccine is offered not as part of a health plan, but as workplace safety or public health measure for all employees—whether they participate in the health plan or not—HIPAA would not apply. Why? Because the employer would be acting solely in the capacity as an employer
Exactly. When an employer is simply making the vaccine available to all employees, they are not collecting private medical information. Once they request that information, from an employee or from a healthcare provider (with the employee's written consent) the employer becomes legally obligated to maintain that confidentiality. They are now acting, not only as an employer, but also as a custodian of private medical information.
 
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