UY Question - in Final Year

[chalee94]

I think it was more that many owners saw no reason to pay $15 per point, later raised to $25, for something they couldn’t use or get any benefit from for 30+ years (it was first offered in 2007, 35 years from the 2042 expiration).

Yep - time value of money. The resale values of OKW-2057 at that time only showed a bump of $7-8 per point over OKW-2042 resales...about half.

Resale prices for contracts were cheaper back then so many of us thought it was nuts to pay even $15 per point for points you couldn't use for 35 years when you could purchase a smaller OKW resale contract (which back then had identical ownership perks to direct purchases) for $75-80 per pt IIRC, for points you could use immediately.

 

[disneylandtour]

That is why a future extension won’t happen….

I think I get most of that. The "free" OWK extensions would exclude all of the resale contracts that have been washed back to 2042 (by a signed release), without the extension, right? I think there a lot there, that are now truly 2042 due to resale. And I'm guessing that the rest will be settled in court, one way or the other--probably in favor of the original owners--but I expect this to go to the courts But anyway, I wasn't suggesting an extension of ownership--rather, I was suggesting that current 2042 DVC owners (perhaps outside of OKW) might be allowed to buy into some newly conceived association, detached from their current home resorts, where they could buy a short contract of some kind. I'm fairly sure that there would be a way to arrange this, even if it's as a "membership association" rather than as a deeded purchase. And I'm guessing that 15 years would be about the right length to both satisfy older members and to maximize revenue from those members and those visits. Most DVC owners fall into an upper income bracket. And Disney would be looking at tens (hundreds) of thousands of retirees in these income brackets who would no longer make trips as regularly to WDW. I think they'd like to capture as many of those members for another 15 years, particularly when people in that group have a lot of leisure time. And I'm also guessing that members in this "15-year Disney Points Club" could use a lot of those points at OWK, once all of the resale 2042 members (and maybe more) are timed out. That would be the way to fix the problem: it kicks the can down the road for refurbing/retheming OWK (not needing to worry about how to retheme and fill a half-sold resort) and it captures a lucrative market for Disney.

 

[Sandisw]

I think I get most of that. The "free" OWK extensions would exclude all of the resale contracts that have been washed back to 2042 (by a signed release), without the extension, right? I think there a lot there, that are now truly 2042 due to resale. And I'm guessing that the rest will be settled in court, one way or the other--probably in favor of the original owners--but I expect this to go to the courts But anyway, I wasn't suggesting an extension of ownership--rather, I was suggesting that current 2042 DVC owners (perhaps outside of OKW) might be allowed to buy into some newly conceived association, detached from their current home resorts, where they could buy a short contract of some kind. I'm fairly sure that there would be a way to arrange this, even if it's as a "membership association" rather than as a deeded purchase. And I'm guessing that 15 years would be about the right length to both satisfy older members and to maximize revenue from those members and those visits. Most DVC owners fall into an upper income bracket. And Disney would be looking at tens (hundreds) of thousands of retirees in these income brackets who would no longer make trips as regularly to WDW. I think they'd like to capture as many of those members for another 15 years, particularly when people in that group have a lot of leisure time. And I'm also guessing that members in this "15-year Disney Points Club" could use a lot of those points at OWK, once all of the resale 2042 members (and maybe more) are timed out. That would be the way to fix the problem: it kicks the can down the road for refurbing/retheming OWK (not needing to worry about how to retheme and fill a half-sold resort) and it captures a lucrative market for Disney.

Any new timeshare condo association is required to be at least 40 years by FL timeshare law.

They can’t just give points to someone to use for a “fee” vs deeded interest either if those points are tied to declared inventory. I

DVD makes more money selling a new resort. They don’t care who the buyer is and I do not believe it matters to them if all those owners are replaced with younger ones.

But, what you are thinking already exists. Those owners can buy a new contract at an existing resort that expires later. DVD will be more than happy to sell them a new SSR or AKV contract that gives them another 12 to 15 years…or any other resort that the owner might want.

Those owners can also simply buy a contract resale which would most likely be cheaper than anything DVD would offer.

In terms of OKW, yes, there are actual deeds going back to DVD but the most recent estimate has maybe 50 to 60% by the time 2042 comes. That leaves a lot of owners out there and while I do agree it might head to court, I’d guess it’s could possible that DVD just decides to let those owners simply pay dues and use and hope for the best.

 

[zavandor]

In terms of OKW, yes, there are actual deeds going back to DVD but the most recent estimate has maybe 50 to 60% by the time 2042 comes. That leaves a lot of owners out there and while I do agree it might head to court, I’d guess it’s could possible that DVD just decides to let those owners simply pay dues and use and hope for the best.

I think they'll fight in court, but only to save face. They probably know they're going to lose, but they cannot just give it for free when others have paid for it. So they'll try, but not with a lot of conviction, it'll be short and the owners will win.

 

[aceshigh73]

I think they'll fight in court, but only to save face. They probably know they're going to lose, but they cannot just give it for free when others have paid for it. So they'll try, but not with a lot of conviction, it'll be short and the owners will win.

The issue is see with court is the negative press and connotations with Disney suing DVC members and how this all went down years ago where most everyone has no clue about. Might not be good for them.

 

[aceshigh73]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't find the answer. What happens in the final year of ownership if you have a late UY? Let say for example, the contract is for a 2042 property. On Jan 2041, you are charged your membership dues--or start paying them monthly--but if you have a UY of December, you only have a short time to use your points before your entire contract expires on Jan 31, 2042. Either something is going to be worked out about this situation or there's going to be a mad, mad rush to use points in that two month window before they expire at the end of Jan--especially for those with large contracts? I'm sure that I'm missing something obvious. Just point me in the right direction. This question is one more of curiosity than anything else. My current contracts are Feb and Sept, but I was eying some other contracts and wondering, How would that work?

I’m wondering if Disney will try to do a “Magical Ending” (I was going to write Happy at first but thought better. Lol).
Would they attempt to rent back the last year of points at an amazing rate to clear up a lot of the outstanding issues that could arise with people trying to bank and use pts ? Not everyone would take it, but if they did and possibly even offer to roll it over to a new contract it might help a lot of people jump.

There’s a lot of ways this can go. “Sell us your last ‘x’ number of years back at $25 pt. Apply to new boardwalk, beach club, boulder ridge” or possibly a new resort entirely.

 

[Sandisw]

I think they'll fight in court, but only to save face. They probably know they're going to lose, but they cannot just give it for free when others have paid for it. So they'll try, but not with a lot of conviction, it'll be short and the owners will win.

I wonder though if what they will risk is the owners who paid fighting them in court vs owners just using.

There could be owners who will decide not to pay the dues and let Disney take it back by default. And, it can’t be sold because DVD requires the quit claim deed already.

I think it will be interesting to watch play out

 

[zavandor]

I wonder though if what they will risk is the owners who paid fighting them in court vs owners just using.

There could be owners who will decide not to pay the dues and let Disney take it back by default. And, it can’t be sold because DVD requires the quit claim deed already.

I think it will be interesting to watch play out

Yeah, that's interesting, could the owners who extended ask a refund?
I'll need to buy some caramel popcorn in Germany/Epcot in 2041 to watch this unfold

 

[Sandisw]

Yeah, that's interesting, could the owners who extended ask a refund?
I'll need to buy some caramel popcorn in Germany/Epcot in 2041 to watch this unfold

I definitely think it would be harder for them to win since they agreed to pay it.

DVD just might decide that is a better court fight vs the owners who want to pay dues and use.

 

[skier_pete]

So here's my wild *** predictions.

1) To the OPs question - the leases expire January 30, 2042, that means all points will have to be used by that date. If you have a December 2041 UY, you better borrow those points and stay somewhere.
2) At this point (2023) Disney has no clue what they will be doing when those leases expire. Businesses like this have at best a 5-year or 7-year plan. Ask them in 2036.
3) Old Key West will again offer owners 15-year extensions around 2037 @ $60 / point. It is likely a majority will take them. Those that aren't taken will be sold to new owners in 2042.
4) Boulder Ridge will offer owners an extension of contracts through 2068 to match up with Copper Creek for $180 per point. If not taken, the 26-year leases will sell to the general public at $250 per point.
5) HHI and likely VB as well will be sold off.
6) BW and BC owners will not be offered extensions. The resort will be re-allocated with a new higher point structure similar to Riviera or GF for per night bookings. An extensive refurb of these resorts will occur, and the resorts will be sold as new DVC at current pricing of $380 / point. Existing owners may be offered a nominal discount to re-up. ($30 off per point).
7) Disney will relax before it has to figure out what to do with 9 MILLION Saratoga Springs points that will never sell at the 2054 direct point price of $490 per point.

 

[chalee94]

I think they'll fight in court, but only to save face. They probably know they're going to lose, but they cannot just give it for free when others have paid for it. So they'll try, but not with a lot of conviction, it'll be short and the owners will win.

I just don't think there are that many OKW owners who both refused to pay for the extension and refused to sign the quitclaim.

I think the handful of owners who held out will (relatively quietly) be allowed to continue to 2057.

But we'll see...

 

[chalee94]

I’m wondering if Disney will try to do a “Magical Ending” (I was going to write Happy at first but thought better. Lol).
Would they attempt to rent back the last year of points at an amazing rate to clear up a lot of the outstanding issues that could arise with people trying to bank and use pts ?

Not likely.

There may be many owners who drop out and stop paying dues the final year or two and Disney just forecloses on the contracts.

 

[chalee94]

I also think that, since dues are for operations and maintenance of the resort during the calendar year, on January 1, 2042 owners of the expiring resorts will pay only to operate their home resort for that one month. We should see the amount that we pay for Capital Reserves decrease over the last few years, too, because DVC can’t make us put money aside for a new roof, for example, that won’t be needed for ten years after the condo association ends.

OKW-2042 owners are anxiously awaiting a dues subsidy for capital reserves that OKW-2057 owners will still need to pay in the next few years, but it will be interesting to see how DVC handles that.

 

[zavandor]

So here's my wild *** predictions.

1) To the OPs question - the leases expire January 30, 2042, that means all points will have to be used by that date. If you have a December 2041 UY, you better borrow those points and stay somewhere.
2) At this point (2023) Disney has no clue what they will be doing when those leases expire. Businesses like this have at best a 5-year or 7-year plan. Ask them in 2036.
3) Old Key West will again offer owners 15-year extensions around 2037 @ $60 / point. It is likely a majority will take them. Those that aren't taken will be sold to new owners in 2042.
4) Boulder Ridge will offer owners an extension of contracts through 2068 to match up with Copper Creek for $180 per point. If not taken, the 26-year leases will sell to the general public at $250 per point.
5) HHI and likely VB as well will be sold off.
6) BW and BC owners will not be offered extensions. The resort will be re-allocated with a new higher point structure similar to Riviera or GF for per night bookings. An extensive refurb of these resorts will occur, and the resorts will be sold as new DVC at current pricing of $380 / point. Existing owners may be offered a nominal discount to re-up. ($30 off per point).
7) Disney will relax before it has to figure out what to do with 9 MILLION Saratoga Springs points that will never sell at the 2054 direct point price of $490 per point.

It all makes sense. But: how can they extend BRV without extending the lease, and at that point if some OKW owners got it for free everyone will know it. They cannot "fake extend", meaning create a new association and just sell it to.existing owners, because a new association needs 40 years.

Also, they sold SSR once, during a global financial crisis, they can do it again.

 

[zavandor]

I wonder though if what they will risk is the owners who paid fighting them in court vs owners just using.

There could be owners who will decide not to pay the dues and let Disney take it back by default. And, it can’t be sold because DVD requires the quit claim deed already.

I think it will be interesting to watch play out

But Disney told owners that to get the extension they had to pay. But having extended the lease, they already had rights to the extension. Disney sold them what they already had. Could someone cry "fraud"?

 

[Stargazer65]

One problem are dues. They cannot let owners use their points before paying the dues for the final year or they might just stop paying.

But sure, if they use the points, they still have to pay the dues. Otherwise, it's like stealing from Disney.

 

[zavandor]

But sure, if they use the points, they still have to pay the dues. Otherwise, it's like stealing from Disney.

Do you think no one would do it?

 

[chalee94]

But Disney told owners that to get the extension they had to pay. But having extended the lease, they already had rights to the extension. Disney sold them what they already had. Could someone cry "fraud"?

It's 'merica. You can always cry fraud whether it's merited or not.

DVC did offer a $30 credit to dues as part of the extension. Supposedly it was to offset the hassle of doing the paperwork and notarization. Not sure if they could legally try to swing that as consideration...

Realistically, whatever rights you had originally almost certainly were signed away when you participated in the process. Only those who did not purchase the extension and also refused to sign a quitclaim would still have options in my non-lawyerly opinion. And those rights might be limited depending on whoever is actually motivated to spend big on lawsuits...

 

[chalee94]

But sure, if they use the points, they still have to pay the dues. Otherwise, it's like stealing from Disney.

I think you have hit on why Disney will likely limit banking or especially borrowing at the end of the contracts...

Your last year of dues will be due Jan 2041 in order to use the points during that last use year.

If you don't pay, you don't go.

 

[CarolynFH]

the leases expire January 30, 2042

Slight correction here - my ownership ends on January 31, 2042, so I can book that night on my points, wake up at BWV on February 1, and say Goodbye as I walk out for the last time.