Under-achievers....

[DizBelle]

Sorry about the laundry list - I was a little embarrassed when I read that over, but I decided to leave it. As a stay-at-home non-wage-earning mom I'm a bit sensitive on the topic of underachieving. I swear, sometimes it feels like people think I sit around all day eating bon-bons!

I did not realize that you were talking about your cousin's lack of passion, instead of his lack of achievement. That's different! Everyone should have something in their life that makes them light up.

If he's not happy with his life, then yes, that's disappointing. Hopefully he'll realize that and do something about it - assuming he's not being hobbled by a psychological issue that he can't cope with alone. Perfectionism is one issue that can really hamstring some people - they are too afraid of failure to even try.

FWIW - I truely hated school. I have an LD that makes listening to lectures extremely difficult. The teacher sounded like Charlie Brown's teacher. The work was boring. I remember sitting in class feeling like I was just suffocating.

When I had kids I told them both, "You never have to stay anywhere you're miserable. I don't care if it's school, a job or a marriage. If you're not happy - and I mean REALLY not happy - then get out. Find something else to do." I'd rather have a high school drop out who is busy with *something*, than a kid going to school every day like a zombie and wasting his teacher's time.

I think your cousin's problem is that it sounds like he's not happy - but he's also not getting out of his present circumstances and finding something else to do with his life. Is it possible he's stuck, at least psychologically? Depression is another nasty one that gets people, sometimes.

Being a stay at home, non-wage earning mom is fine. There is no reason a married couple can't have that kind of arrangement. But what you have to realize and appreciate is just because you don't have to worry about the "things that don't matter one bit", doesn't mean someone else isn't. If you have food in your belly and a roof over your head, someone is worrying about these "things that don't matter one bit" on your behalf. Do you honestly think that your DH would quit his job, risking his ability to take care of his family and provide you with food and shelter just because he didn't like his job all that much?

From what you state above, you'd be perfectly happy with a high school drop out that is passionate and busy playing video games sitting on your sofa for the rest of their lives? What is going to happen to this child when you aren't there to provide a full refrigerator for them?

Bottom line, if you aren't worrying about your future, either someone else is worrying about your future for you or you're going to end up homeless.

 

[bluesaturn]

Actually, if those people had good social support networks, they wouldn't be living under a bridge. I'm not blaming them, it's just a fact of life.

I don't think it's true that social networks would save them. First of all, to save them these social networks would have to be full of people doing well for themselves with enough left over to care for others. There is not guarantee the people you form a bond with will be in this position. You could have the best family and friends in the world, but if they are just as broke as you they aren't going to be able to save you. What if they are already taking care of other people as well?
Also, even if all your family and friends are loaded and love you to pieces, they probably aren't going to let you have a free ride forever. And they shouldn't, because that would be enabling you (general you). Friends can certainly save you in emergency situations, but their generosity shouldn't be a long term solution.

 

[minkydog]

Finally, this fourth quarter, I thought, "there is no way that a 15 year old should need this kind of control from their parents". I remember reading a response to a post on here about giving up the control and the fighting, and just let the chips lay where they may fall. Natural consequences. So, I did not look on the parent portal all of fourth quarter.

He took his last final yesterday. All quarter long, I asked him how he was doing in his classes. His answer was always "Great!". Last night, I casually asked him if I was going to be in for a shock when report cards come in the mail. He flipped out. It finally came out that he failed algebra this quarter. He went from a B last quarter to an F. His grades for the semester are C, F, B, F. If he doesn't pass the final, he's screwed. Summer School probably.

I'm disappointed. But I think the worst thing right now is that I don't like him. I'm having a hard time looking at him and feeling proud. I'm feeling guilty for feeling this way. I love the kid, and he IS a good kid (no drugs, or trouble...and this I know for sure). His teachers love him despite his grades. His biology teacher told him that he's the kind of kid that makes teachers want to teach. How do I get through this summer and stop feeling what I feel about my son? I look at other kids, who work hard and WANT to work hard, and it just makes me so sad that my son is SO smart but refuses to use what he has.

Sigh....

No flames from me. I have been in your shoes. My oldest just blew off school most of the way through high school, except for the year that I homeschooled him after he showed extreme disrespect to his teachers(that straightend him up pretty well.) Although he is a very gifted musician and actor, he was a C-D-F student in everything else. Drove me crazy.

I had a real problem with not liking my son. Of course, it didn't help much that he was pushing my buttons every chance he got. He told me every day for 3 years how much he hated me and wished I was dead. It's hard to like someone who is disappointing you and hurting you daily. No amount of discipline made a difference. (And I don't need any flames from the peanut gallery--until you've come on over here and walked in my shoes you have NO IDEA. )

I finally just made a decision that I was simply going to love him, no matter what. No matter how "bad" he was, no matter what.Making everything about his grades didn't improve one thing. I got out of the homework/schoolwork business and let him suffer the consequences. The funny thing is, once I did all that I became calmer and he began to get a lot less belligerant. It didn't happen overnight, but he did go on to act more like an adult. We have had some ups and downs, and I haven't done everything perfectly(at least, according to the DIS) but we have managed to keep the lines of communication open and that's all I wanted.

DS is 23 now and our relationship is as good as ever. He did graduate HS and went on to 3 semesters of college. He writes music, plays in a band, has his own apartment, truck and a job. He pays his own way and he visits us a couple times a week to hang out, eat dinner(by invitation) and do some laundry. He takes his sister out to the movies and for coffee. DS has turned out to be a stand up guy. He took the long way to get there, but I think he's going to be okay.

 

[Kit'smommy]

This was my DH in high school. He went to a private school and I think they only passed him every year to get rid of him. He went in the Marines, took a few classes here and there and went to college when he got out 6 years later. He graduated with a BS in account and a 4.0. We were in grad school together and he only made one B (I had all As so I still pick on him for blimishing his perfect record ). He passed his CPA exam on the first try and has had a great career so far.

Just telling you this as proof the kids can change when they grow up. Hang in there...

 

[Magpie]

Being a stay at home, non-wage earning mom is fine. There is no reason a married couple can't have that kind of arrangement. But what you have to realize and appreciate is just because you don't have to worry about the "things that don't matter one bit", doesn't mean someone else isn't. If you have food in your belly and a roof over your head, someone is worrying about these "things that don't matter one bit" on your behalf. Do you honestly think that your DH would quit his job, risking his ability to take care of his family and provide you with food and shelter just because he didn't like his job all that much?

From what you state above, you'd be perfectly happy with a high school drop out that is passionate and busy playing video games sitting on your sofa for the rest of their lives? What is going to happen to this child when you aren't there to provide a full refrigerator for them?

Bottom line, if you aren't worrying about your future, either someone else is worrying about your future for you or you're going to end up homeless.

Actually, my husband has changed jobs MANY times. Every few years, as a matter of fact. As I always say, he likes to be on the learning curve. And when he's no longer happy, he moves on. It's stood him in good stead - particularly because he's always careful not to burn bridges.

Of course I plan for the future! I didn't say I'd be happy with my child "playing video games sitting on your sofa for the rest of their lives". I said I would rather have a high school drop out who is busy doing *something* than a kid who is wasting his time - and everyone else's time - in class.

There are many, many other options besides high school. There are co-op placements, and apprenticeships, and work programs. Some kids need to work minimum wage for awhile, before they realize that it's not enough and they want more.

My friend's son is a "drop-out" - he left seventh grade part way through the year. I'm tutoring him in math, he's working with a bicycle shop owner and learning how to build bikes from the ground up, and his grandfather is teaching him to play pool. He's doing pretty well! Another friend's daughter dropped out of high school and got a job at a grocery store. Now she's paying her way through college - because as a "mature student" (meaning she's been in the work force for a few years) she doesn't require a high school diploma to move on to higher education.

These kids are going to do fine, even without high school! It just takes a little more creativity.

 

[Magpie]

I don't think it's true that social networks would save them. First of all, to save them these social networks would have to be full of people doing well for themselves with enough left over to care for others. There is not guarantee the people you form a bond with will be in this position. You could have the best family and friends in the world, but if they are just as broke as you they aren't going to be able to save you. What if they are already taking care of other people as well?
Also, even if all your family and friends are loaded and love you to pieces, they probably aren't going to let you have a free ride forever. And they shouldn't, because that would be enabling you (general you). Friends can certainly save you in emergency situations, but their generosity shouldn't be a long term solution.

If you're looking for a free ride forever, then there are probably other issues going on that need to be investigated. Relationships are about give and take. If you're looking to sleep on someone's couch, then you should be giving back at least by providing free child care, if nothing else.

My personal belief is that most of the folks you see living under bridges have problems, such as drug and alcohol problems, or psychological issues, that have alienated them from the people who could help them. These problems also prevent them from taking advantage of the various opportunities that are out there.

 

[MineMail]

(And I don't need any flames from the peanut gallery--until you've come on over here and walked in my shoes you have NO IDEA. )

(((minkydog))) I've been there - no flames from my corner. It reaches a point when nothing works to correct their behavior: rewards, privilege restrictions, therapy or punishments. People who have been gifted with cooperative children really don't understand just how isolated and frustrated the parents feel.

Well-meaning friends would say that all teens say something that crosses the line now and then, downplaying and dismissing my concerns. They would have been shocked to hear the hate-filled verbal attacks that came from my oldest.

 

[marcyinPA]

That single statement (bolded) is one of the saddest things I have ever read. Be proud of your son because of WHO he is not WHAT he does. Every thing you describe sounds like a person to be proud of.

Not all kids are overachievers. Not all kids will make the perfect grades. Not all kids will work hard in high school. This is just the simple truth. And, you know, it doesn't mean he won't succeed in life. He just needs to find his way, find what it is HE wants to achieve (not what mom and dad want him to achieve).

There are many in college right now, earning degrees in technical programs getting ready for careers in very well paying fields that didn't do well in high school (I know because I have seen the transcripts). Actually there are many in 4 year colleges too that didn't do well in hs either. Not every college student has a 4.0 GPA in high school, far from it.

Instead of being down on him and not proud of him, sit down with him and help him figure out where he messed up (don't tell him, let him tell you) and how he can fix it. If that means summer school, so be it. If it means retaking the class next year, so be it. Right now I would assume the main objective is to graduate and to find his "calling" along the way. So help him figure out how to reach the objective, the other will come along.

I hope you understand that I love my son and I realize that it could be 100 times worse, but it's been a LONG year, full of disappointments. I'm tired. I've cared more about his grades/school work than he has. He may not be one to love school but it's a requirement so he'll have to find a way to get through it. Life is full of situations that we don't like, but we have to deal with them.

I do try so hard to see the wonderful things that he does, and it brings happiness until the next major disaster. The problem is, he continues to repeat the same behaviors over and over and over. He's so sorry, and then BAM!, another F or zero. Discussions turn to fights in an instant, and there is no reasoning with him.

I consider myself a good, involved parent. I know my DH and I raised him (and his brother) well. I feel guilty for being so disappointed in him, but I have no idea how to NOT feel disappointed when I just want so much more for him (and I know he's completely able to do more for himself!)!?

 

[Magpie]

I hope you understand that I love my son and I realize that it could be 100 times worse, but it's been a LONG year, full of disappointments. I'm tired. I've cared more about his grades/school work than he has. He may not be one to love school but it's a requirement so he'll have to find a way to get through it. Life is full of situations that we don't like, but we have to deal with them.

I do try so hard to see the wonderful things that he does, and it brings happiness until the next major disaster. The problem is, he continues to repeat the same behaviors over and over and over. He's so sorry, and then BAM!, another F or zero. Discussions turn to fights in an instant, and there is no reasoning with him.

I consider myself a good, involved parent. I know my DH and I raised him (and his brother) well. I feel guilty for being so disappointed in him, but I have no idea how to NOT feel disappointed when I just want so much more for him (and I know he's completely able to do more for himself!)!?

Can your insurance cover family counselling? Because I think you may need outside help. Even an educational counsellor - which his school may be able to help you find - might be able to help. You could try contacting the summer school, as I'm sure they've dealt with many underachievers. They may be able to point you in the direction of some good community resources.

Life-long learning is a requirement, but there ARE alternatives to high school. And your son is old enough to start having a say in planning his own future.

It's no good beating your head against a brick wall. What you're doing right now obviously isn't working, so you've got to come up with another plan.

Good luck finding the answer!

 

[Buckalew11]

So I'm wondering, is there something your son would love to do outside of school that you could use as leverage?

I have an overacheiver who is homeschooled. She is going to be a JR and has always had her sights set on a certain college and works hard every day to get where she is going. She's my only so I can't relate at this point to your situation, although having a kid like mine presents its own set of problems, lol.

I have a client who had 2 sons and one esp. was like like your son. Finally, they talked to him and asked him if there was anything he'd like to do and they learned that yes, he wanted to learn to fly a plane and be a pilot. With that info and goal, they told him if he was serious that they would allow him to take flying lessons IF he would get his grades up and keep them up. He agreed to try. He had to bring them up first and then the lesson could start. They came up. The lessons started and he LOVED flying. He was flying commericial planes at the young age of 26.

Within a year, 9/11 happened and he was laid off. He was doing construction, I believe. He then started doing some private piloting for wealthy people. Now he is flying commercially again. He's probably been a pilot for someone(s) on the DIS.

Even if it isn't something that becomes his career, maybe there is something to use in this type of way to help your son do better in school.

Good luck. Parenting is very hard, for sure.

 

[TaraPA]

I hope you understand that I love my son and I realize that it could be 100 times worse, but it's been a LONG year, full of disappointments. I'm tired. I've cared more about his grades/school work than he has. He may not be one to love school but it's a requirement so he'll have to find a way to get through it. Life is full of situations that we don't like, but we have to deal with them.

I do try so hard to see the wonderful things that he does, and it brings happiness until the next major disaster. The problem is, he continues to repeat the same behaviors over and over and over. He's so sorry, and then BAM!, another F or zero. Discussions turn to fights in an instant, and there is no reasoning with him.

I consider myself a good, involved parent. I know my DH and I raised him (and his brother) well. I feel guilty for being so disappointed in him, but I have no idea how to NOT feel disappointed when I just want so much more for him (and I know he's completely able to do more for himself!)!?

I hear you loud & clear! And I feel your pain!

 

[MineMail]

Can your insurance cover family counselling? Because I think you may need outside help

Speaking from experience, the counseling could absolutely help the OP and her DH cope with the situation. However, unless the DSS wants to change his ways, it'll just be dismissed. My DD went through the motions with several counselors and the only behavioral change to result was a bit of anger management. The right counselor can help save the OP's mind, though. (Only half-kidding.)

Even if it isn't something that becomes his career, maybe there is something to use in this type of way to help your son do better in school.

Great suggestion and it is worth a try. I like the "raise your grades to get the carrot" approach. Also, lay out the consequences if grades drop later on because it will make it clear that this privilege must be "earned" to be kept.


Sorry to be so doom-and-gloom about these approaches, but I do agree that the OP should give them a try to see if they will help.

To the posters who shared their post-high school success stories, thank you. It's a relief to know that changes can happen later in life. When you're faced with a child who isn't cooperating, it's very isolating and difficult to see down the road a bit.

 

[SandrA9810]

i just have to say, in school, I HATED these words... "But you have the potential." I wanted to knock any one out that said that to me.

I was far from a great student, i'd do my class work on occasion, never any homework, and at least put some gibberish down for a test. I managed to scrape by, and not deal with summer school. But the one year I did try, was because I wanted to be in the colorguard. I busted my butt in the guard and during the school year to keep my 2.0 required average. When there was no guard, there was no trying.
I had 27 missed days my senior year, and was given the boot in late march. After every 4 detentions, the 5th was saturday detention with a parent for 2hrs. Me and my mom spent a lot of time together, and of course sitting in a quiet air conditioned auditorium during lunch was much better than sitting outside, so i had no problem with being late to school.

I wound up having to wait till summer to go to night school. And i worked with my aunt from the time I got kicked out all through summer. I found night school to be a breeze. It was easy for me to put in a little effort when I was the smartest. Still a litte disappointed I couldn't finish pre calc.

I had no reason, no will power, nothing to make me even want to go to school. My 9th grade year with the colorguard was the only time I actually tried because I had to. Even in middle school, i scraped by. And from 4th to 8th, I was in drop out prevention, a smaller class to help me stay on track. Who knows how much trouble my family went through for me.

I'm a much better on hands learner, and I have no problem zoning out in a classroom setting. I did two semesters in community college and knew it wasn't right for me. I wouldn't have been able to sit through the core classes to actually get an AA.

If I could go back and change the circumstances around my high school years, I would try a lot harder. But if everything stayed the same, the changing of schools and stuff, don't think i'd do it any differently.

School really isn't for every one, and classrooms isn't the ideal situation. Don't be so hard on yourself. Be proud of what he can do, not at what he's failed at.

 

[eliza61]

I'm disappointed. But I think the worst thing right now is that I don't like him. I'm having a hard time looking at him and feeling proud. I'm feeling guilty for feeling this way. I love the kid, and he IS a good kid (no drugs, or trouble...and this I know for sure). His teachers love him despite his grades. His biology teacher told him that he's the kind of kid that makes teachers want to teach. How do I get through this summer and stop feeling what I feel about my son? I look at other kids, who work hard and WANT to work hard, and it just makes me so sad that my son is SO smart but refuses to use what he has.

Sigh....

Hey Marcy,
Hang in there girlfriend. Parenthood some times really does make you want to run away. we've all been there.

1) You are allowed to not feel proud of some things about your kids. heck, we all have some thing about ourselves we don't feel great about. It's not an either/or situation with people.

Tell yourself exactly what you just said... Billy is a great kid, here is the great thing about him, here is the sucky thing about him, right now.

I think one of the fairy tales we moms tell ourselves is that if our kids are not these perfect little entities we've failed.


2) what a great thing from his biology teacher. I'm not a teacher, I'm an mentor for 11th & 12th grade girls. believe me baby, nothing is worse than having a kid that has you looking at the want ads every sunday. I hear war stories from h.s. teachers every day.

3) Stop comparing your kid to other kids. Didn't you hate that when you were younger. Besides the grass just always seems greener on the other side, most of the time when you get there it's just as weedy.

 

[MineMail]

I'm a much better on hands learner, and I have no problem zoning out in a classroom setting.

Someone else said something similar, and another mentioned having a learning disability. I wonder if it's a learning style issue? Different people DO learn in different ways. I've taught college courses and I find some people learn from doing, others learn by listening, still others have to sit down and read their notes over and over. My oldest is going to college, majoring in a hands-on vocation. She does well in the trade classes, but not in the required core curriculum. In the career she intends to pursue, having a degree is a step up from the beginning, so she's so far committed to earning her bachelors.

It's funny, I know people who *rave* about how wonderful online learning is and I just hate those classes. (DH agrees-he dropped a class for that very reason.) I don't want to teach myself! If I'm paying tuition, I want someone else teach me, not have me read for hours then take some online quizzes that I could easily cheat. (I wouldn't, of course, but there are more internet devices than people in my house, lol.) I will say that DH and I refer to things we learned in college every single day, so I do appreciate my education.

Thanks for pointing this out. Other avenues of learning are so important and not many people think to look into them. You reaffirmed the "rewards work somewhat" for me.

A friend reminded me that sometimes too big a reward can lead to worse behaviors than just poor school effort. That person's child forged a school document so that they could get back on a non-school sports team. I've never heard the friend cry on the phone so hard.

 

[eliza61]

I understand what the OP is saying about not liking the DSS, but she really means his behavior. I'm sure she loves him just as much, but loving someone is different from liking how they act. (((OP)))


I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I'm really intrigued by the people who posted from the school-hater side of the fence. You've said that you found your niche and are doing well, but do you think you've become achievers? Do your families think that you've turned around? Or have you just kept your low standards and your families have accepted it because it's unchangeable?


I often think of a former coworker who had a law degree, a masters in business technology, and an insurance license. She worked in the IT department of a major insurance firm, handling the contract-development projects. That's a real niche, with achievement on top.

Depends on how you define achievement. I hated school but perservered because it was expected of me. Got my Ph.d in Chemistry, got hired by a fortune 500 Chemical company and promptly got a ton of uclers from going to a job I hated every single day. So even with my high standards and degrees and 6 figure salary to me I was a collosial failure.

Now I'm easing toward fulfillment. I've gone part time, cut my salary in half and volunteer working with 17, 18, 19 year old inner city girls. I'm going back to school for baking and even if I only sell 1 single solitary cupcake, I will consider that more of an achievement than any thing before.

 

[paintnolish]

I hated high school. I hated the people and hated the strict structure. I was bored. I barely made it through. It was another story when I got to college. I was free to take what I liked (for the most part) and could even get up an go to the bathroom when I wanted to! I got straight As. I did become a SAHM for a few years, but I am now about to graduate in December (after I student teach). I have a 3.8 GPA and am in the honor society. Anyway, "underachieving" isn't a death sentence. My parents are educated and successful. I just didn't like high school!

 

[SandrA9810]

you can be an over achiever and still not wind up happy. My mom got a 4yr college education... Did she do anything with it? Nope... Just had her paychecks garnished 30yrs down the road.

Being successful is being happy. It doesn't matter the income or how cushy the job is. There's plenty of people that would rather sweat a whole day in the sun than sit behind an office desk. I know of extremely book smart people that would cringe at the idea of a desk job making 6 figures.

 

[ilovesugar]

Someone else said something similar, and another mentioned having a learning disability. I wonder if it's a learning style issue? Different people DO learn in different ways. I've taught college courses and I find some people learn from doing, others learn by listening, still others have to sit down and read their notes over and over. My oldest is going to college, majoring in a hands-on vocation. She does well in the trade classes, but not in the required core curriculum. In the career she intends to pursue, having a degree is a step up from the beginning, so she's so far committed to earning her bachelors.

It's funny, I know people who *rave* about how wonderful online learning is and I just hate those classes. (DH agrees-he dropped a class for that very reason.) I don't want to teach myself! If I'm paying tuition, I want someone else teach me, not have me read for hours then take some online quizzes that I could easily cheat. (I wouldn't, of course, but there are more internet devices than people in my house, lol.) I will say that DH and I refer to things we learned in college every single day, so I do appreciate my education.

Thanks for pointing this out. Other avenues of learning are so important and not many people think to look into them. You reaffirmed the "rewards work somewhat" for me.

A friend reminded me that sometimes too big a reward can lead to worse behaviors than just poor school effort. That person's child forged a school document so that they could get back on a non-school sports team. I've never heard the friend cry on the phone so hard.

One of those was me. I am not a learn by the book person, at all. This is the best example I can give. I got a D- or F in almost every math class I was in. I got taken out of pre-algebra and placed in the lowest math you can take, in 11th grade. My guidance counselor told me to not even consider college, there was no way I was getting in. It was horrible.

What is my job today? I am an accountant. I run the accounts payable AND the payroll departments in my company of 150 employees. I learned by doing. So much for flunking out of math and no college education.

 

[Magpie]

One of those was me. I am not a learn by the book person, at all. This is the best example I can give. I got a D- or F in almost every math class I was in. I got taken out of pre-algebra and placed in the lowest math you can take, in 11th grade. My guidance counselor told me to not even consider college, there was no way I was getting in. It was horrible.

What is my job today? I am an accountant. I run the accounts payable AND the payroll departments in my company of 150 employees. I learned by doing. So much for flunking out of math and no college education.

Math education in the schools - then AND now - is absolutely appalling. I almost failed grade 9 math, and was excused from taking any more math courses in high school. When I started teaching my own children math, I discovered I had holes in my comprehension dating all the way back to first grade! I also discovered that math could be fun.

A friend of mine's 7th grade son was diagnosed with anxiety and depression, and ended up dropping out of school. Math was a big source of his frustration - apparently he was getting into screaming matches with his math teacher!

His mother asked me to teach him, so I ran him through some tests and discovered that he had absolutely no number sense whatsoever. He could barely add, and was counting on his fingers! I couldn't put him back more than a year (it would hurt his self-esteem too much) so I found a basic sixth grade curriculum that seemed to cover everything and we began working through that. I supplemented the text a lot with hands-on activities and cooking and anything else I could think of that would show him how numbers work in the real world.

Six months later - I can't believe how smart this kid is! He's got most of his multiplication tables memorized, he's solving almost everything in his head (I give him two chances to get the answer - if he fails the first time, he has to work the problem on paper), and he's almost finished the whole book. Next year, I'm going to be able to move him up to pre-Algebra, no problem.

There's no reason this kid should have been failing math. It makes me mad sometimes the way so many kids come out of the system hating math and thinking they're terrible at it.