Two Questions on EVs

[kdonnel]

Based on some of the above comments I'm guessing that Tesla charging stations can on be used on Tesla's, is that correct? If that is the case it just doesn't make any sense to me, if this whole EV thing is going to work, we need to have universal charging stations that all EVs can use.

For the moment*

Many manufactures have recently announced a switch from CCS1 to NACS. Tesla superchargers V3 and V4 are NACS.

So in the very near future most cars will be able to use any V3 or V4 Tesla supercharger with an adapter or with later models, natively. The V1 and V2 superchargers will remain Tesla only. Teslas produced with NACS support can also use CCS1 with an adapter. Teslas made earlier than 2020 do not have NACS support and will remain limited to using only Tesla superchargers.

In theory GM and Ford EV will gain access to the V3 and V4 Tesla superchargers in February. Not sure if Tesla, GM, and Ford will really meet that announced date.

*There are a few Tesla supercharger stations currently that have what is known as a Magic Dock installed. This is an adapter that allows CCS1 cars to use the supercharger. For these few locations, CCS1 equipped cars can already charge at the supercharger using the built in adapter.

 

[kdonnel]

I do have a question for EV owners: how much does it cost you to get a full charge?

Home charging depends on your electric rate.

My car has a 91kWh battery. My electricity averages out to about $0.12 per kWh all in with fees and taxes in the summer. So a full charge would be $10.92. In the winter the average is more like $0.09 per kWh or $8.19 for a full charge.

I have kept a spreadsheet and found the total cost per mile for driving an EV with my rate plan to be $0.028 per mile. So just shy of 3 cents a mile.

Comparing that to gas, assuming an average cost of $3.20 a gallon and a 25 MPG car that works out to $0.128 per mile. Or 4.5 times more expensive.

ICE is really more than 4.5 times more expensive because of maintenance costs. The only maintenance costs for my car for the first 100,000 miles are tire rotations every 10,000 miles and a cabin air filter every 20,000 miles. I perform the cabin filter changes myself for $10 and get the tires rotate for free at a local repair shop.

DCFC is not as wide a difference in cost per mile between EV and ICE. DCFC is generally priced very close to the cost per mile of ICE. So the cost savings are reduced or eliminated if the EV driver is relying on DCFC.

 

[Coastie]

I drove my Tesla model Y performance from Virginia to Orlando earlier this year, my first 1700 mile round trip from Virginia. Using the Tesla navigation was a breeze and if needed can change super charging stations on the fly. My entire trip for charging was about $175. In most cases, I paid a higher per KwH due to demand period. I am driving to the Wilderness Lodge the first week of August and plan to try the destination J1772 located on property. However, these are level 2 and only two available. Hopefully courtesy plays into "sharing" if not, there are a couple of super chargers within a 5 mile radius. Further, it seems, per PlugShare, these destination chargers are about $0.35/KwH... https://www.plugshare.com/location/167568

If any one this thread has any experience using these, I would love to hear more. I am not a fan of destination chargers as most never provide the Kw as advertised.

 

[LuvOrlando]

My son and DIL are on their third EV. They love them, for them, it is the perfect car, BUT their second car has always been a ICE for two reasons. They don't have the money to buy a second EV, and the charging networks for non-Tesla vehicles are a little thin.
They have a VW ID4 with a range of 275 miles, and it is their primary car. They live in Los Angeles and most of their trips are less than 30 miles (they both work from home). But my son rarely keeps the car more than 80% charged, because apparently the battery will last a lot longer not being fully charged all the time. But when my son went on a 300 mile round trip trip he took the ICE because the charging network seemed a little thin where he was going, and just buying gasoline was easier. And after he got to San Diego, he found a lot of the charging stations were out of order so he would have had an issue.
Tesla has done a better job with their exclusive network of chargers. I travel Sacramento to Los Angeles frequently on I-5 and Tesla put 100 chargers at Harris Ranch. That is about the half way point between Sacramento/San Francisco and Los Angeles and you see a TON of Teslas on I-5.
Can't speak to Disney. For my wife and I we found a Hybrid to be a better option for us.

Are charging stations proprietary?

That would be a nightmare if they aren't all just rowing in the same direction with generic charging stations.

 

[kdonnel]

Are charging stations proprietary?

That would be a nightmare if they aren't all just rowing in the same direction with generic charging stations.

In the US there are currently two standards for level 1 and level 2 (home style chargers). J1772 and NACS(Tesla) and three standards for DCFC(how you charge on a trip in a short period of time), CHAdeMO(Older Nissan, being phased out), CCS1, and NACS.

Most automakers have recently announced a switch to NACS as the port on the car. In simplified terms, NACS is CCS with a different connector so it is possible to have an adapter that lets a car with a CCS1 connector use a NACS charger and for a car with a NACS connector to use a CCS1 charger.

Rivian did put in their own DCFC network called the Rivian Adventure Network. It is CCS1 but only usable by Rivian vehicles. They have promised to open the network to all automakers soon.

It really is not an issue as the in car navigation will take you to a compatible charger.

Europe is all CCS2 for all automakers.

 

[sam_gordon]

my first 1700 mile round trip from Virginia. Using the Tesla navigation was a breeze and if needed can change super charging stations on the fly. My entire trip for charging was about $175

Just for grins & doing the math... Assuming an ICE vehicle gets 30mpg, that's 56.6666 gallons for 1700 miles. At $3.50/gallon, that's $198. So you "saved" about $25.

However, if you get 35mpg, that means 48.5 gallons, so $170. If gas is under $3.50 (or you do better than 35mpg), that total goes down.
Just doing math.

 

[tvguy]

It really is not an issue as the in car navigation will take you to a compatible charger.

I guess it depends on the car and where you are. A friend has found in rural areas his Tesla directs him to charging locations that don't have chargers. I can't find the photo on his Facebook page but one store has even had to put up a sign that says "There is no Tesla charging station here. There has never been a Tesla Charging station here. Tesla so far is ignoring our requests to remove us from their list of charging locations"

 

[kdonnel]

I guess it depends on the car and where you are. A friend has found in rural areas his Tesla directs him to charging locations that don't have chargers. I can't find the photo on his Facebook page but one store has even had to put up a sign that says "There is no Tesla charging station here. There has never been a Tesla Charging station here. Tesla so far is ignoring our requests to remove us from their list of charging locations"

There are always edge cases.

I personally don't live my life worrying about the unlikely.

 

[tvguy]

There are always edge cases.

I personally don't live my life worrying about the unlikely.

Until it happens.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Just for grins & doing the math... Assuming an ICE vehicle gets 30mpg, that's 56.6666 gallons for 1700 miles. At $3.50/gallon, that's $198. So you "saved" about $25.

However, if you get 35mpg, that means 48.5 gallons, so $170. If gas is under $3.50 (or you do better than 35mpg), that total goes down.
Just doing math.

It's probably also worth pointing out that day to day the cost per kwh should be significantly lower due to home charging. So if someone is breaking even in the worst case scenario of public charging it means you're in good shape for average use.

There are always edge cases.

I personally don't live my life worrying about the unlikely.

There are also reviews/comments on apps like plugshare to avoid this. Still annoying and something that shouldn't happen but there are at least ways to prevent it.

 

[kdonnel]

Until it happens.

So much of life involves edge cases. If I lived my live afraid of them I would never fly, the plane might crash, I would never drive, I might have an accident, etc.

I save my worry for issues that really matter.

 

[sam_gordon]

It's probably also worth pointing out that day to day the cost per kwh should be significantly lower due to home charging. So if someone is breaking even in the worst case scenario of public charging it means you're in good shape for average use.

Fair point.

 

[MICKIMINI]

We owned a hybrid for five years and mostly liked it. It was not a plug in. We live in NH and have severe cold so it did take a long time for the heater to warm to temperature. I would consider a hybrid again but never buy a plug in.

My Subaru warms up quickly and gets almost 34 mpg with the bigger engine. I can buy gas in 5 minutes in a safe location. Worrying about finding a plug in a safe location up and down the east coast would keep me up at night not to mention power outages or being stuck in the middle of nowhere in a snowstorm. Just my personal opinion.

 

[Coastie]

It's probably also worth pointing out that day to day the cost per kwh should be significantly lower due to home charging. So if someone is breaking even in the worst case scenario of public charging it means you're in good shape for average use.

Spot on... my home level 2 @ 11 cents per kWh is significantly lower than while on the road using Tesla supercharger network, plus never charge at home until 0000 - 0500 to leverage lowest rates. But as newbie on the long trip to Orlando, I learned much and on how to squeeze every kWh for my upcoming August trip. Current charge totals for the last 12 months is 2,895 kWh used for a total cost of $446, versus gas equivalent of $1,371 for a savings of $925. It will be interesting to see what ChargePoint cost per kWh will be at the Wilderness Lodge.

 

[Mle8308]

Spot on... my home level 2 @ 11 cents per kWh is significantly lower than while on the road using Tesla supercharger network, plus never charge at home until 0000 - 0500 to leverage lowest rates. But as newbie on the long trip to Orlando, I learned much and on how to squeeze every kWh for my upcoming August trip. Current charge totals for the last 12 months is 2,895 kWh used for a total cost of $446, versus gas equivalent of $1,371 for a savings of $925. It will be interesting to see what ChargePoint cost per kWh will be at the Wilderness Lodge.

Hopefully you will be able to access a charging station. Problem with WDW is that a lot of people will charge up their vehicle and not move it once it's done because they are out at the parks all day. Same with the charging stations in the parks, people park to charge and don't return to move them, so even though there are stations, it can be hard to get one. There have also been reports that a lot do not actually work. Not my idea of a vacation having to drive around worry about where and when to charge my vehicle. DL is much better equipped for EV's. WDW not so much.

 

[kdonnel]

Hopefully you will be able to access a charging station. Problem with WDW is that a lot of people will charge up their vehicle and not move it once it's done because they are out at the parks all day. Same with the charging stations in the parks, people park to charge and don't return to move them, so even though there are stations, it can be hard to get one. There have also been reports that a lot do not actually work. Not my idea of a vacation having to drive around worry about where and when to charge my vehicle. DL is much better equipped for EV's. WDW not so much.

When I have traveled, free level 2 at a hotel or destination is a bonus if it works but not necessary for my trip.

I don't completely understand where paid level 2 charging fits into owning an EV. Level 2 is worthless on a trip unless you have 8+ hours to charge. It has not been something I have ever used or needed. I can see it making sense at work for people who don't have home level 1 or 2 available.

It must fit in somehow.

It is either profitable for the station owner or the installation provides tax grants/rebates that make it profitable. I believe tax saving is why there is such a stark difference between level 2 at Disneyland(CA) and Walt Disney World(FL).

 

[Mle8308]

When I have traveled, free level 2 at a hotel or destination is a bonus if it works but not necessary for my trip.

I don't completely understand where paid level 2 charging fits into owning an EV. Level 2 is worthless on a trip unless you have 8+ hours to charge. It has not been something I have ever used or needed. I can see it making sense at work for people who don't have home level 1 or 2 available.

It must fit in somehow.

It is either profitable for the station owner or the installation provides tax grants/rebates that make it profitable. I believe tax saving is why there is such a stark difference between level 2 at Disneyland(CA) and Walt Disney World(FL).

Did you mean to reply to me? I never mentioned anything about owning or level of chargers! I don't own and never plan to own an EV. All I meant was I saw way more charging stations at DL than WDW, easier to charge a vehicle there than at WDW.

 

[kdonnel]

Did you mean to reply to me? I never mentioned anything about owning or level of chargers! I don't own and never plan to own an EV. All I meant was I saw way more charging stations at DL than WDW, easier to charge a vehicle there than at WDW.

I was replying to your sentiment that the person gets to charge at WDW with my opinion as to why it is really not that important but more of a bonus.

 

[bcla]

I would just add that charging sounds really difficult at first with all these options, but it's not really once you get used to dealing with different charging setups. Then there's the difference between moderate charging speeds (Level 2) and high speeds (Level 3).

At home, mostly likely it's going to be a charging setup that doesn't really care what it's charging and will just supply power as requested by the vehicle.

At a public charging station it can be more difficult. I've seen ones where it's provided as a free service. Every Tesla is delivered with an adapter for CCS to Tesla's charge port, so it's easy to use one of those public charging stations. Tesla also has a network of chargers provided by businesses where they'll list them as available in their own navigation. I've driven a Tesla before and used it where it was just plug it in and nothing else was needed to start charging.

Tesla's Supercharger system is designed where it recognizes the vehicle, which needs to be registered to an account to pay for the electricity. Other systems like ChargePoint can be paid for with a ChargePoint account, or directly with a credit card. But it really depends on the system.

 

[Coastie]

Just returned from driving my Tesla model Y performance to the Wilderness Lodge,,, about 1750 miles round trip. 6 nights at Boulder Rdige was great except Debby had other ideas . The EV chargers at the Wilderness Lodge, not the greatest and with only 2 ChargePoint chargers available, not the best. I was able to access only twice and the 2nd time was the night before leaving which allowed me to charge to 95%. But took sooooooo long, nearly 8 hours for the last 20%. Further it didn’t help others charging refused to move their EV once charged. How to tell? Walk by and see that the meter on the charging unit wasn’t indicating charging. Tesla owners can use their app to see charging status. Overall not too bad and charging cost was about $165 for the total trip.