TSA mess and the police

[bekkiz]

Thought this would be a good place to share an article which makes the head of the TSA look even more ridiculous.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...em-is-game-horrifying-sex-abuse-experts.shtml

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

And there they go


I know it's an invasion and I would want a GUARANTEE this information is kept IN THE USA not farmed out to some other country that can do it cheaper while making our info vulnerable. However, IF the info would be closely maintained by our government and not shared or outsourced with anyone else ever THEN I would be ok with it as an alternative to having someone touch anyone in my family. But the guidelines would have to be impenetrable, no bending at all.

OMG - that is the worst of all evils to me! That is personal, identifiable information that you would be ok with "someone" collecting?!

Versus a scan or pat down that cannot identify or pry into your background?!

good grief

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

ABout the clearences and who gets to be near them, they would have to be done in advance. I am highly doubtful the TSA brigade would be the ones in charge of a National Security issue like background checks. I tend to think the clearances would have to be trusted to people possessing many more qualifications in order to insure the clearances weren't faked. I'd like to think FBI because I happen to hold them in high esteem.

I also agree with DisneyBamaFan because of things I know personally due to my DH's career. There is more out there than most people realize so for me it's all "Whatevs"... I don't care much about what they do just DON'T TOUCH unless you have a reason and don't expose me to any elective radiation, zero - nada - none.

I think you are confusing me with someone else, I've been fairly consistent about what I have a problem with and why... no hypocrisy . It is all about my comfort zone... what are you saying? Do you WANT people to be coerced into being touched? I don't get you If you are worried about safety what do you care what form people choose?

For the record, I feel that a comfortable compromise would involve people being able to choose one or the other, I wouldn't want you distressed any more than I want me distressed.

There are bad apples in the FBI too.
The idea that background checks could be done on my kids - and people would know where the kids live is not the answer. That people can hack into a system and retrieve the background check.

Talk about taking away civil liberties Franklin must be rolling in his grave.

Versus an anonymous patdown?

 

[C.Ann]

Thought this would be a good place to share an article which makes the head of the TSA look even more ridiculous.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...em-is-game-horrifying-sex-abuse-experts.shtml

The article below - per the link above - has to be some kind of sick joke - right?


TSA Told To Tell Children That Groping Them Is A Game... Horrifying Sex Abuse Experts

from the that's-not-a-game dept

Apparently TSA agents are being told that one way to handle the new groping pat downs for children is to try to make it out to be some sort of "game." This is apparently horrifying some sex abuse experts who point out that a common tactic in abuse cases is to tell the kids that they're just "playing a game." The TSA has said that the newer patdowns will not apply to children under 12, but the rules have been somewhat unclear -- leading to the statement from a TSA director, James Marchand:

"You try to make it as best you can for that child to come through. If you can come up with some kind of a game to play with a child, it makes it a lot easier."

He also said that the idea of making it a game would become a part of the TSA's training. Ken Wooden, who runs an organization to try to stop sex abuse of children was not pleased:

"How can experts working at the TSA be so incredibly misinformed and misguided to suggest that full body pat downs for children be portrayed as a game?" Wooden asked in an email. "To do so is completely contrary to what we in the sexual abuse prevention field have been trying to accomplish for the past thirty years."
----------------------------------------------

 

[OceanAnnie]

I have read about TSA workers making the pat downs as a game for children. I forget the source, but I think it was mainstream.

Not that I think it's the "right" thing to do. I don't. But I think the intention was good. I think it's sad. I don't think the TSA workers were properly trained in this aspect and were doing what they could (possibly from desperation) to keep the line moving quickly. And to keep the kids from being scared.

 

[OceanAnnie]

There are bad apples in the FBI too.
The idea that background checks could be done on my kids - and people would know where the kids live is not the answer. That people can hack into a system and retrieve the background check.

Talk about taking away civil liberties Franklin must be rolling in his grave.

Versus an anonymous patdown?

None of it is a cake walk IMO.

The enhanced pat down is the same type a person gets for committing a crime. Do we really want to be treated as a criminal and a guilty one at that, just for buying a plane ticket? Officers are only allowed to do pat downs for just cause IIRC. So an anonymous pat down isn't such a little thing either.

Franklin rolling in his grave. Indeed.

 

[OceanAnnie]

No I'm not confusing you, I actually didn't mean that you are a hypocrite.
So the basic problem is that every body wants security "Their way or no way". that's pretty much been the underlying them throughout. You want security just as long as it doesnt offend or inconvenience you.
Some people want profiling, back ground check, scanners,dogs etc. but every body is screaming how their "constitutional rights" are being violated but they have no problem with the violation as long as it's done "their" way.

I do find it ironic that you are ready to entrust your personal information to these people you have villified and it's totally cool.
I could care less what form you choose.

The way I see it, no one "wants" their constitutional rights taken from them in any form. One may seem like a lesser of the evils, but I don't think we will get any choice in the matter. Debating the degree of infringement is futile. The changes will continue to come. Everyone's "line" will surface at some point, I imagine.

 

[surfgirl]

They can do whatever they want as long as they keep their mitts to themselves & don't expose us to any carcinogens & we're square.

ABout the clearences and who gets to be near them, they would have to be done in advance. I am highly doubtful the TSA brigade would be the ones in charge of a National Security issue like background checks. I tend to think the clearances would have to be trusted to people possessing many more qualifications in order to insure the clearances weren't faked. I'd like to think FBI because I happen to hold them in high esteem.

snip. .. just DON'T TOUCH ... snip

...and don't expose me to any elective radiation, zero - nada - none.

For the record, I feel that a comfortable compromise would involve people being able to choose one or the other, I wouldn't want you distressed any more than I want me distressed.

A few points:

1) How do you have kids if you hate being touched ?
*just kidding* this is a joke - trying to be light here. I'm sure I failed, but I just got a small chuckle.

2) You do realize that you get more "elective radiation" by the actual flight than the screening? Does this mean you don't get dental x-rays either ? (that would be considered "elective"). Did you have an ultrasound with any kid ? Do you use a cell phone ?

3) I'm more concerned about the fact that the federal government could track me with such a proposed system. They already put RFID's in passports - ironically, there is a market for the passport shields that block the RFID's from transmitting. THAT doesn't tell you that people are concerned about being electronically monitored ? (of course, I brought this up as a greater concern of mine many pages ago, so at least I'm consistent!)

4) 1984 anyone ? What's next ? The Thought Police ?

5) Lack of trust for the data being stored. How many people do you know who've either had a credit card stolen, or their itunes account hacked, or identity theft problems ? It is prevalent in our society and what is so great about the government that they would build better un-hackable systems ?

6) McCarthyism anyone ?

 

[surfgirl]

I'd like to think FBI because I happen to hold them in high esteem.

Like J. Edgar Hoover ?

 

[eliza61]

Franklin rolling in his grave. Indeed.

A few points:


4) 1984 anyone ? What's next ? The Thought Police ?

5) Lack of trust for the data being stored. How many people do you know who've either had a credit card stolen, or their itunes account hacked, or identity theft problems ? It is prevalent in our society and what is so great about the government that they would build better un-hackable systems ?

6) McCarthyism anyone ?

In my long life (well 50+ years anyway) I am always amazed at how many times our country has been on the verge of destruction or at least had the founding fathers doing a dance in their graves. Has anybody checked their graves 'cause as many times as we hear it, I'm actually surprised they are still in their graves.

Let's go to the video tape:

Let's see, I remember hiding under my desk as a little girl because of communism destroying the american way of life. Never mind that everybody was running around accusing every boy else of being a "red" just to keep their neck outta the noose and I never could figure out how a desk was going to help me in the event of a nuclear attack but that's another story and yet we managed to survive.

Next up of course, Blacks getting the right to vote had absolutely every body in the south and quite a few up north dang near heart failure because of course the country was going to collapse immediately afterwards.

Now of course if gays get the right to get married it's definitely the end of civilization and has Ole George rolling around in his grave.

Yesterday on a nightly news I hear a critic saying, that allowing gays to serve openingly in the military will be completely destroy our armed forces and once again destroy the country.

And yet we manage to survive. I always find that interesting. So I'm thinking Ben, George, Tom and John are snug as a bug and sleeping soundly. I'm actually surprised that no one has mentioned Walt yet.

 

[LuvOrlando]

This post has taken a long time to write because the first draft was a bit defensive but truth is, some of the points by various people being made are valid concerns (I could do without the attacks but I'll take them for the team). So skipping over stuff I've already mentioned and ignoring some nastiness, I guess I just don't consider digging through the stuff that I consider public domain to be an invasive search. As a result, to me its not a contradiction but I might be making a lot of assumptions I shouldn't because I don't really know how it would turn out. Like I said before, only part of me is rational, the other part isn't and both need to be agreement before I do anything so I guess I'm still doing nothing. ugh, sooooooooo close. I really just want to go on vacation without fear of night terrors... Is that really too much to ask

 

[OceanAnnie]

In my long life (well 50+ years anyway) I am always amazed at how many times our country has been on the verge of destruction or at least had the founding fathers doing a dance in their graves. Has anybody checked their graves 'cause as many times as we hear it, I'm actually surprised they are still in their graves.

Let's go to the video tape:

Oh yes, I remember hiding under my desk as a little girl because of communism destroying the american way of life. Never mind that everybody was running around accusing every boy else of being a "red" just to keep their neck outta the noose. and yet we managed to survive.
Next up of course, Blacks getting the right to vote had absolutely every body in the south dang near heart failure because of course the country was going to collapse immediately afterwards.
Now of course if gays get the right to get married it's definitely the end of civilization and has Ole George rolling around in his grave.
Yesterday on a nightly news I hear a critic saying, that allowing gays to serve openingly in the military will be completely destroy our armed forces and once again destroy the country.

And yet we manage to survive. I always find that interesting.

Firstly, I was quoting and agreeing chicagodisneyfan about "Franklin rolling in his grave".

Secondly, we aren't doing so great in the survival department. Our chips are down. I find that beyond interesting.

 

[C.Ann]

I have read about TSA workers making the pat downs as a game for children. I forget the source, but I think it was mainstream.

Not that I think it's the "right" thing to do. I don't. But I think the intention was good. I think it's sad. I don't think the TSA workers were properly trained in this aspect and were doing what they could (possibly from desperation) to keep the line moving quickly. And to keep the kids from being scared.

This part of the article caught my attention - sounds kind of wishy-washy to me:

The TSA has said that the newer patdowns will not apply to children under 12, but the rules have been somewhat unclear -- leading to the statement from a TSA director, James Marchand:

"You try to make it as best you can for that child to come through. If you can come up with some kind of a game to play with a child, it makes it a lot easier."

---------------------------------------

So is "the newer patdowns will not apply to children under 12" true or not? The next word is "but...."

It's not really funny, but I was sitting here a minute ago and I started chuckling.. I was thinking about how all of the child experts have always advised parents to instruct their children to never allow other people to touch them "anywhere their bathing suit covers".. Now what are parents supposed to tell them?

"Don't let anyone touch you where your bathing suit covers - except for the strangers at the airport.."???

What a mess.. I honestly don't see how passengers are any safer now than they were 6 months ago.. "Randomness" does not equal safety..

 

[eliza61]

Firstly, I was quoting and agreeing chicagodisneyfan about "Franklin rolling in his grave".

Secondly, we aren't doing so great in the survival department. Our chips are down. I find that beyond interesting.

And yet we're still here, amazing

But remember OA, how chips have been a lot further down than this. heck, even what Ben Franklin had to endure was a heck of a lot worse than this.
It's a 229 year old country (depending on when you start counting) made up of 300 million individuals and you think this is actually going to kill us? I missed the memo where it said this country was never ever going to have any issues.

 

[OceanAnnie]

And yet we're still here, amazing

But remember OA, how chips have been a lot further down than this. heck, even what Ben Franklin had to endure was a heck of a lot worse than this.
It's a 229 year old country (depending on when you start counting) made up of 300 million individuals and you think this is actually going to kill us? I missed the memo where it said this country was never ever going to have any issues.

No, no, no.

I'm not intermingling the issues. It was a stand alone statement. You said something like, and yet we still survive.

Yeah. But we aren't doing such a swell job of it. Not speaking about the TSA. General statement. Lots of uncertainty in these times. Lots. Again, general statement.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

.....

 

[OceanAnnie]

What happened LLP? You had a good post.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

What happened LLP? You had a good post.

Not sure. I just had a bad vibe and just decided to delete it. And that was my toned down version. But thank you for the compliment.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Not sure. I just had a bad vibe and just decided to delete it. And that was my toned down version. But thank you for the compliment.

Your welcome. Didn't come across as harsh or anything.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The enhanced pat down is the same type a person gets for committing a crime.

Not even close.