TSA mess and the police

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My point is that I wasn't surprised that it caught your attention, because of your personal perspective. There's not much else I can say about that. We're just going to have to agree to disagree about this.

Indeed.

You do realize that much of this new screening procedure has been discussed online for over a year. (I think we even discussed it here on the DIS.) Your claim that this came about with no warning is ridiculous.

TSA kept quiet on new rules to avoid providing a 'roadmap' to terrorists
By Jordy Yager - 11/22/10 08:31 PM ET

Days before one of the year’s busiest travel holidays, the TSA’s administrator stood firm on the use of new airport screening measures that have spurred an outcry from Capitol Hill and the public.

Echoing a new government refrain, John Pistole, who heads the Transportation Security Administration, said Monday that the TSA would consider modifying its screening policies to make them “as minimally invasive as possible” but indicated the advanced-imaging body scans and pat-down methods would remain in place in the short term.

Lawmakers from both parties have received hundreds of complaints about the new methods — some have likened the pat-downs to groping — and have called on Pistole to address the privacy concerns of their constituents, who were not informed about changes ahead of time.

Pistole, who spent 26 years with the FBI, told reporters he rejected the advice of media aides who advised him to publicize the revised security measures before they took effect. Terrorist groups have been known to study the TSA’s screening methods in an attempt to circumvent them, he said.

“I wish I could say somebody else was responsible for that, but that is my decision and it was a risk-based decision,” Pistole said about the move to roll out the new measures quietly earlier this month.

“Our press people actually made a strong argument of why we should get out ahead of the story and, generally, I’m always in agreement on that,” Pistole said in response to a question by The Hill at a roundtable breakfast hosted by The Christian Science Monitor.

“In this instance my concern was … that we not publicize that because it would then provide a roadmap or blueprint to terrorists.”

For the past week, Pistole has been at the center of a heated national debate over the new pat-down techniques, which he described last week to two panels of senators as “clearly more invasive” than traditional screening measures. Several key lawmakers have asked Pistole to revise the TSA’s new rules before the Thanksgiving holiday.


Pistole said he spoke on Friday with House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.), who had asked the agency to “reconsider” using the methods. Thompson said the TSA should have “had a conversation with the American people about the need for these changes.”


In a new effort designed to cultivate greater public understanding, Pistole said airports would begin broadcasting a new public service announcement this week. In the message, the TSA head will ask the public to work with the agency to make the security screening go as smoothly as possible.

Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) introduced legislation last week — the American Traveler Dignity Act — that would remove legal immunity for TSA or other federal employees who subject individuals to any physical contact, X-rays or body imaging. That would apply even if an individual consented to the search.

Paul called the advanced screening “one of the worst things they’ve done out in the open in a long time.”

“They can poke you, prod you and take pornographic pictures,” he said. “If you did it, you’d go to jail.”

In protest of the screening measures, one group has organized a “National Opt-Out Day” for Wednesday, one of the heaviest air-travel days of the year. Pistole said the TSA plans to be fully staffed, but added he is worried the protests — passengers opting to be patted down instead of undergoing a body scan — will slow the screening lines and make other passengers miss their flights.

Rep. Pete King (R-N.Y.), the ranking member of the Homeland Security panel who will likely become chairman in January, was among those on Monday who defended the new screening methods as necessary.

“I have a great regard for John Pistole,” King said in a statement to The Hill. “While these new TSA procedures are unpleasant to some people, the harsh reality is that we need them.”

TSA officials are advising passengers to arrive at airports two hours early in case of long screening and check-in lines. The TSA’s website has a separate section explaining what people should expect from the pat-downs.

Under the new TSA rules, passengers are required to go through advanced imaging systems, or full-body scans. But because some people believe the technology is too invasive, TSA officials allow people to receive a pat-down instead. Stories have surfaced of a cancer survivor who had his urine bag spilled on him while being screened, as well as a video of a young boy screened without his shirt.

TSA officials have tried to combat these videos and reports by informing the public of their rights to a private screening and spelling out the details of individual situations. In a statement, the TSA said that the young boy’s father had voluntarily removed his son’s shirt to make the screening process go faster, and stayed by his son’s side the entire time. The screening officer then helped the boy put his shirt back on, TSA said.

Pistole said the Department of Homeland Security has been working on the new screening measures since Christmas last year, following the arrest of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, whom officials allege attempted to blow up a Detroit-bound flight. Last week, Pistole told senators the newly modified screening methods would stop someone hiding explosives in his or her underwear, as Abdulmutallab was.

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs defended the new security screening policies on Monday, but added there was an effort to revamp them so they would be “minimally invasive” while still providing adequate security. He was echoing comments made by President Obama over the weekend in Portugal.

“I understand people’s frustrations,” Obama said. “What I’ve said to the TSA is that you have to constantly refine and measure whether what we’re doing is the only way to assure the American people’s safety. And you also have to think through, Are there ways of doing it that are less intrusive?”


http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...pt-quiet-to-not-provide-roadmap-to-terrorists
 
Holy smokes!! I was only away from the DIS for a few days and this thread has exploded.. Not in the mood to go all the way back to where I left off - if I could even find that spot.. LOL... Too many of those long-winded, "let's-see-how-many-words-I-can-use" and "how-many-ways-I-can-twist-them-to-appear-mega-intelligent" filled posts to muddle through.. ;)

So - skipping over those posts - where do things stand now? I haven't been watching the news or checking online to see what's what.. Figured I could just get it right here when I came back..LOL..:laughing:

Anything change? Any suits filed?

Any chance of additional compromise regarding the pat downs by the TSA? If not, I guess there's always hope :goodvibes - considering they did in fact change the pat down procedure for children 12 and under..

Guess I'll have to try to keep up better - in between unpacking, getting ready for the next holiday, etc..:santa:

At least the thread hasn't been locked! :thumbsup2

Nope, not much change. millions of people managed to fly this weekend. no major reports of assaults, child molestation, etc etc. One women did show up in California and went through the scanner in her bikini but pretty much life marched on.

reportedly over 900 complaints have been filed with the aclu but I haven't read of anyone suing or having tsa agents arrested.
 
Too many of those long-winded, "let's-see-how-many-words-I-can-use" and "how-many-ways-I-can-twist-them-to-appear-mega-intelligent" filled posts to muddle through

And too many thinly veiled personal attacks against certain posters.
 
Interesting article:

Local TSA Agent Speaks Out On Pat-Downs


PITTSBURGH (KDKA) — Passengers may be unhappy over long lines and enhanced security at the airports, but it’s a feeling shared by many at TSA.

“There’s a lot more tension both by officers, fellow officers, and passengers,” one Pittsburgh TSA officer told KDKA’s Jon Delano in an exclusive interview.

TSA officers don’t like the new aggressive pat-downs of passengers either.

“I truly feel that it is morally and ethically wrong to do it,” the agent noted. “This does not make flying safer. It’s just taking away American citizens rights.”


And all the horror stories at other airports only make things worse.

“Everybody shudders when they hear that because they know that is not what we’re supposed to be doing,” the agent said.

Although trained, every officer has a different way of doing pat-downs, leading to inconsistencies.

“If you do it properly, you’re not touching the genitalia. But there is so much room for error, that’s where the problem comes because you’re in such close proximity of the areas that you are checking, it could happen.”


And some officers are more aggressive than others.

“Some people have worked in the military, some people have worked in the police force.”

But some at TSA question if the new rules are making anyone safer.

“I myself would be just as confident flying before these new procedures took place as I would be flying right now.”


The irony is that the person most likely subjected to an enhanced pat-down is not someone acting suspiciously.

It’s America’s seniors that are most often the targets of a pat-down, says this local TSA officer.


“These are your mother, your father, your grandparents. They’re the ones who have to put up with this every time they fly.”

And it breaks the heart of some local TSA officers.

“Just the looks on their faces, some of them, the fear.”


America’s older folks seem targeted because their artificial hips, knees, plates, and pace-makers most often trigger the metal detectors.

“They are the ones who get the brunt of the pat downs. Most of the American public will not have any difference in their screening. The people who alarm the MAG are the ones that will get this invasive pat down.”


And it targets the wrong people, some TSA officers believe.

“The ones who are least likely to be terrorists, the elderly, are the most likely to get the pat downs?” KDKA’s Jon Delano asked a local TSA officer.

“Correct. And that’s the big problem with this system.”

One local agent says, ironically, the controversial full body scanner may be better for seniors because it may avoid a pat-down, a pat-down, he says, that violates basic American values.

“It goes back to, ‘Do upon others as you would wish others to do upon you.’ And I would not want that done to me, or my family, or my mother, or my grandmother.”


http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2010/11/25/local-tsa-agent-speaks-out-on-pat-downs/
 

One women did show up in California and went through the scanner in her bikini but pretty much life marched on..

In a bikini, huh? LOL.. Did they let her on the plane? I remember that incident awhile back that was all over the news about the woman who was too "scantily" dressed and I believe it was the captain that insisted she not be allowed to board.. Can't get much scantier than a bikini..:laughing:

Interesting article:

Local TSA Agent Speaks Out On Pat-Downs


PITTSBURGH (KDKA) — Passengers may be unhappy over long lines and enhanced security at the airports, but it’s a feeling shared by many at TSA.

“There’s a lot more tension both by officers, fellow officers, and passengers,” one Pittsburgh TSA officer told KDKA’s Jon Delano in an exclusive interview.

TSA officers don’t like the new aggressive pat-downs of passengers either.

“I truly feel that it is morally and ethically wrong to do it,” the agent noted. “This does not make flying safer. It’s just taking away American citizens rights.”


And all the horror stories at other airports only make things worse.

“Everybody shudders when they hear that because they know that is not what we’re supposed to be doing,” the agent said.

Although trained, every officer has a different way of doing pat-downs, leading to inconsistencies.

“If you do it properly, you’re not touching the genitalia. But there is so much room for error, that’s where the problem comes because you’re in such close proximity of the areas that you are checking, it could happen.”


And some officers are more aggressive than others.

“Some people have worked in the military, some people have worked in the police force.”

But some at TSA question if the new rules are making anyone safer.

“I myself would be just as confident flying before these new procedures took place as I would be flying right now.”


The irony is that the person most likely subjected to an enhanced pat-down is not someone acting suspiciously.

It’s America’s seniors that are most often the targets of a pat-down, says this local TSA officer.


“These are your mother, your father, your grandparents. They’re the ones who have to put up with this every time they fly.”

And it breaks the heart of some local TSA officers.

“Just the looks on their faces, some of them, the fear.”


America’s older folks seem targeted because their artificial hips, knees, plates, and pace-makers most often trigger the metal detectors.

“They are the ones who get the brunt of the pat downs. Most of the American public will not have any difference in their screening. The people who alarm the MAG are the ones that will get this invasive pat down.”


And it targets the wrong people, some TSA officers believe.

“The ones who are least likely to be terrorists, the elderly, are the most likely to get the pat downs?” KDKA’s Jon Delano asked a local TSA officer.

“Correct. And that’s the big problem with this system.”

One local agent says, ironically, the controversial full body scanner may be better for seniors because it may avoid a pat-down, a pat-down, he says, that violates basic American values.

“It goes back to, ‘Do upon others as you would wish others to do upon you.’ And I would not want that done to me, or my family, or my mother, or my grandmother.”


http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2010/11/25/local-tsa-agent-speaks-out-on-pat-downs/

This I did hear something about (or read it somewhere).. It was also "supposedly" said (can't verify) that the TSA said they were particularly disgusted with having to do pat downs on "obese" people.. Did I read that on this thread - a few days back - or somewhere else? :confused3
 
http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/2010-11-23-airport-security-tsa-poll_N.htm

Poll: Most fliers bothered or angered by TSA pat-down
s



By Gary Stoller, USA TODAY
Most air travelers are bothered or angry about thorough pat-downs at airport security checkpoints and many dislike the alternative at many airports, a full-body scan, a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds.

The thorough pat-downs, akin to what police give suspects and which were in place at all airports Nov. 1, bother or anger 57% of adult fliers, according to the poll conducted Nov. 19-21 of Americans who have flown at least twice in the past year and released Tuesday.
 
http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/2010-11-23-airport-security-tsa-poll_N.htm

Poll: Most fliers bothered or angered by TSA pat-down
s



By Gary Stoller, USA TODAY
Most air travelers are bothered or angry about thorough pat-downs at airport security checkpoints and many dislike the alternative at many airports, a full-body scan, a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds.

The thorough pat-downs, akin to what police give suspects and which were in place at all airports Nov. 1, bother or anger 57% of adult fliers, according to the poll conducted Nov. 19-21 of Americans who have flown at least twice in the past year and released Tuesday.

Read the entire article.. Very interesting.. Although it appears that people aren't writing letters of complaint or displeasure to anyone in particular and/or at all (which is what some people on this thread are pointing to as a lack of distain for these new measures), it's fairly obvious that a large number of flyers are very unhappy these days..

Thanks for sharing that..:goodvibes
 
But will they stop flying? That's what it all comes down to. I think most would rather not be scanned or patted down if the scan shows something, but there is not liking something, and there is not liking something, and so they won't fly.

By Gary Stoller, USA TODAY
Most air travelers are bothered or angry about thorough pat-downs at airport security checkpoints and many dislike the alternative at many airports, a full-body scan, a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds.
 
Oh spare me! I make my entire living producing copyrighted work.
Then you should exhibit more respect for the work of others.

As long as there is proper attribution and a direct link, there's nothing wrong with re-posting full text.
You're just plain wrong, but this is the wrong thread to have a full discussion of that issue. There are already threads discussing how it is wrong to post full articles and not providing commentary for each quoted portion, necessitating the quoting for context.
 
Because your favored format is as plain a Red Herring as I've ever seen.
Then why did you bring it up?

The format splinters the thoughts of the OP and is extremely difficult to respond to, which put you, the first one to strike, at a shameless tactical advantage.... that's why.
No, my format responds direct to the point. You simply don't like it.

And talk about splintering thoughts! Nothing splinters the discussion more than your trying to discuss the discussion instead of the issues.

And your efforts to distract attention away from the fact that you aren't able to refute the points I made, but changing the discussion into, first a personal attack on me, and then an attack on my posting style, is duly noted. What will be your next distraction tactic?
 
But will they stop flying? That's what it all comes down to. I think most would rather not be scanned or patted down if the scan shows something, but there is not liking something, and there is not liking something, and so they won't fly.

Nope. that's the missing part. Those same travelers when polled would they stop flying, almost 82% said no they would not stop flying.

Convienence and price trump.
 
Nope. that's the missing part. Those same travelers when polled would they stop flying, almost 82% said no they would not stop flying.

Convienence and price trump.

Its the Walmart phenomenon... people complain about how everything comes from China, they complain about how they treat their workers, they complain about the draconian policies, yet.... it is always busy!
 
I understand that..but the person I was responding to had never flown, and said now she really wouldn't. My question was to her (which I mentioned I was just curious), if she had plans to fly with the old patdown.

I had planned to at one point and would still like to if something changes but for now I am to afraid of TSA to even attempt it.

I wont argue about it and it is not about "punishing" the airline for me personally. It is just simple fear.:( It worries me enough to make me swear off flying unless they make some changes. Until then :drive:
 
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