TSA mess and the police

[olwyngdh]

That might be a start [/sarcasm]. No, I want them to do away with the invasive screening procedures. Well, actually, I want the TSA dismantled, airport security returned to pre-9/11 standards, and explosive-sniffing dogs brought in. I want the focus returned to stopping terrorist plots long before they reach the airport, and I want the security theater to end.

and Muushka said

I want everything you said PLUS an armed captain and one or two armed passengers (conceal and carry volunteers).

TSA dismantled--doubt that is going to happen without overturning the Patriot Act (and I would *love* to see that done) Same with returning to pre 9-11 standards.

explosive sniffing dogs. great idea, but since we can't even have peanuts because someone on the flight might be allergic, I think this is an uphill battle--even though it would be very effective. Also there is the issue that some people have a screaming climbing the wall fear of dogs (kind of like I do of any small rodent)

I would love to be able to go to the gates again without being the one flying. I would have loved to meet my husband when he came home from Iraq, but it doesn't work that way anymore--even though the Red Cross told me I could meet him at the gate with my military ID. TSA told me that Red Cross was only partially right--it had to be a flight between certain hours (not the first time Red Cross was less than helpful), but the TSA agent did let me know the minute his plane was down and disembarking, and make sure that no one was between my daughter and the people coming out so that she could be in her Dad's arms ASAP. Someone even met him and offered to carry his luggage so that he could get to us faster.

Stopping plots before they get to the airport likely happens more than we know. National security doesn't allow us to have all their info--the less the bad guys know about how their buddies got caught, the more likely they are to make the same mistake again.

The problem with the security theater is that it makes people feel safer, even if they know it doesn't really. It would be nice if people reacted with their brains instead of their guts, but until the majority does, we are stuck with theater.

Armed Captain? Sure. Even some of the crew. Air Marshals, no problem. Armed volunteers? H E Double Hockeysticks NO! Talk about untrained, irresponsible, capable of abusing power! Remember Timothy McVeigh and his cohorts? Remember the phrase "going postal" and where that came from? The *last* thing I want on a plane is a vigilante protecting his personal version of truth justice and the American Way. I would rather walk through the airport buck naked and have a cavity search, at least that isn't going to kill me because the sky looks the wrong color of blue today.

 

[C.Ann]

Well, I guess we now have part of the answer as to what the TSA is doing about medical devices. I challenge anyone to claim that this is somehow an exercise in safety and security.

TSA Pat-Down Leaves Man Covered in Urine
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/

The poor guy tried repeatedly to tell the TSA officers about his ostomy and they refused to listen. I'm just shaking right now from reading the story. Can anyone honestly, in good faith, STILL say that this is okay?

----------------------------------

Thanks for this link.. I thoroughly enjoy your reasonable, rational, right-to-the-point posts..

In case anyone wants to read the story rather than wading through the multitudes of long, convulted dissertations that tend to clog up this thread from time to time and make ones eyes glaze over, here it is:

----------------------

TSA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine
'I was absolutely humiliated,' said bladder cancer survivor

Courtesy Thomas Sawyer
Thomas Sawyer, 61, said he was left "humiliated" and covered in urine after undergoing a TSA pat-down. By Harriet Baskas
Travel writer

msnbc.com contributor msnbc.com contributor
updated 2 hours 22 minutes ago 2010-11-21T00:16:18

A retired special education teacher on his way to a wedding in Orlando, Fla., said he was left humiliated, crying and covered with his own urine after an enhanced pat-down by TSA officers recently at Detroit Metropolitan Airport.

“I was absolutely humiliated, I couldn’t even speak,” said Thomas D. “Tom” Sawyer, 61, of Lansing, Mich.

Sawyer is a bladder cancer survivor who now wears a urostomy bag, which collects his urine from a stoma, or opening in his stomach. “I have to wear special clothes and in order to mount the bag I have to seal a wafer to my stomach and then attach the bag. If the seal is broken, urine can leak all over my body and clothes.”

On Nov. 7, Sawyer said he went through the security scanner at Detroit Metropolitan Airport. “Evidently the scanner picked up on my urostomy bag, because I was chosen for a pat-down procedure.”

Due to his medical condition, Sawyer asked to be screened in private. “One officer looked at another, rolled his eyes and said that they really didn’t have any place to take me,” said Sawyer. “After I said again that I’d like privacy, they took me to an office.”

Sawyer wears pants two sizes too large in order to accommodate the medical equipment he wears. He’d taken off his belt to go through the scanner and once in the office with security personnel, his pants fell down around his ankles. “I had to ask twice if it was OK to pull up my shorts,” said Sawyer, “And every time I tried to tell them about my medical condition, they said they didn’t need to know about that.”

Before starting the enhanced pat-down procedure, a security officer did tell him what they were going to do and how they were going to it, but Sawyer said it wasn’t until they asked him to remove his sweatshirt and saw his urostomy bag that they asked any questions about his medical condition.

“One agent watched as the other used his flat hand to go slowly down my chest. I tried to warn him that he would hit the bag and break the seal on my bag, but he ignored me. Sure enough, the seal was broken and urine started dribbling down my shirt and my leg and into my pants.”

The security officer finished the pat-down, tested the gloves for any trace of explosives and then, Sawyer said, “He told me I could go. They never apologized. They never offered to help. They acted like they hadn’t seen what happened. But I know they saw it because I had a wet mark.”

Humiliated, upset and wet, Sawyer said he had to walk through the airport soaked in urine, board his plane and wait until after takeoff before he could clean up.

“I am totally appalled by the fact that agents that are performing these pat-downs have so little concern for people with medical conditions,” said Sawyer.

Sawyer completed his trip and had no problems with the security procedures at the Orlando International Airport on his journey back home. He said he plans to file a formal complaint with the TSA.

When he does, said TSA spokesperson Dwayne Baird, “We will review the matter and take appropriate action if necessary.” In the meantime, Baird encourages anyone with a medical condition to read the TSA’s website section on assistive devices and mobility aids.

The website says that travelers with disabilities and medical conditions have “the option of requesting a private screening” and that security officers “will not ask nor require you to remove your prosthetic device, cast, or support brace.”

Sawyer said he's written to his senators, state representatives and the president of the United States. He’s also shared details of the incident online with members of the nonprofit Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network, many of whom have offered support and shared their travel experiences.

“I am a good American and I want safety for all passengers as much as the next person," Sawyer said. "But if this country is going to sacrifice treating people like human beings in the name of safety, then we have already lost the war.”

Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network executive director Claire Saxton said that there are hundreds of thousands of people living with ostomies in the United States. “TSA agents need to be trained to listen when someone tells them have a health issue and trained in knowing what an ostomy is. No one living with an ostomy should be afraid of flying because they’re afraid of being humiliated at the checkpoint.”

Eric Lipp, executive director of Open Doors Association, which works with businesses and the disability community, called what happened to Sawyer “unfortunate.”

“But enhanced pat-downs are not a new issue for people with disabilities who travel," Lipp said. "They've always had trouble getting through the security checkpoint."

Still, Lipp said the TSA knows there’s a problem. “This came up during a recent meeting of the agency’s disability advisory board and I expect to see a procedure coming in place shortly that will directly address the pat-down procedures for people with disabilities.”

Harriet Baskas is a frequent contributor to msnbc.com, authors the “Stuck at the Airport” blog and is a columnist for USATODAY.com. You can follow her on Twitter .



-------------------------------------------------------

No one deserves to be humiliated like that.. Would it really have been so terribly inconvenient for the TSA to LISTEN to what this man was saying during the pat down procedure? Disgusting - and no excuse for it..

 

[CPT Tripss]

I actually feel kind of sorry for the TSA agents.
snip

Don't feel sorry for them. They chose the job.

Then please start calling the current procedure an invasion of privacy, and stop claiming it's naked images and groping.

Hyperbole will get you nowhere.

What do you call what happened to the guy with the bag, the FA with the prosthetic breast and other people who experienced similar treatment at the hands (literally) of TSAers?

What do you call strangers touching the private parts of other stangers, people who have committed no crime and are not suspected of committing none and who have demonstrated no cause let alone a "probable cause" for any intimate search?

Hopefully they will all be replaced with private security. I like that Sanford is getting on board with this.

Before you get too hopeful, there are other airports that use private security already - SFO is one and its reputation isn't markedly better than TSA's

Well, I guess we now have part of the answer as to what the TSA is doing about medical devices. I challenge anyone to claim that this is somehow an exercise in safety and security.

TSA Pat-Down Leaves Man Covered in Urine
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/

The poor guy tried repeatedly to tell the TSA officers about his ostomy and they refused to listen. I'm just shaking right now from reading the story. Can anyone honestly, in good faith, STILL say that this is okay?

And also the FA who was required to remove her prosthetic breast.

Sounds like they are aware that there has been a problem, and are working to address that problem. What do you want them to do? Throw themselves on a bonfire screaming mea culpa?

TSA has been aware of their insensitivity towards disabled travelers for years. To cut them slack for their contued failure to resolve their insensitivity (I'm being kind) by now is extraordinarily generous of you.

I wonder just what kind of people think that this kind of behavior towards people with disabilities and people that need intimate medical device or prosthetic is remotely OK.

Actually, firing the persons involved in conducting or approving the TSAers behavior in incidents like these and Napolitano and Pistole issuing an "institutional" mea culpa would be a start

 

[PaulaSB12]

http://www.kmov.com/news/mobile/Wom...-screening-was-sexual-assault--109114934.html

What are they groping people's privates for anyway? This is going too far give some people a little power and they will abus Perfect cover for a pedophile this don't like me touching your kid well tough its down to security not me just enjoying myself.

 

[OceanAnnie]

----------------------------------

Thanks for this link.. I thoroughly enjoy your reasonable, rational, right-to-the-point posts..

In case anyone wants to read the story rather than wading through the multitudes of long, convulted dissertations that tend to clog up this thread from time to time and make ones eyes glaze over, here it is:

----------------------

TSA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine
'I was absolutely humiliated,' said bladder cancer survivor

Courtesy Thomas Sawyer
Thomas Sawyer, 61, said he was left "humiliated" and covered in urine after undergoing a TSA pat-down. By Harriet Baskas
Travel writer

msnbc.com contributor msnbc.com contributor
updated 2 hours 22 minutes ago 2010-11-21T00:16:18

A retired special education teacher on his way to a wedding in Orlando, Fla., said he was left humiliated, crying and covered with his own urine after an enhanced pat-down by TSA officers recently at Detroit Metropolitan Airport.

“I was absolutely humiliated, I couldn’t even speak,” said Thomas D. “Tom” Sawyer, 61, of Lansing, Mich.

Sawyer is a bladder cancer survivor who now wears a urostomy bag, which collects his urine from a stoma, or opening in his stomach. “I have to wear special clothes and in order to mount the bag I have to seal a wafer to my stomach and then attach the bag. If the seal is broken, urine can leak all over my body and clothes.”

On Nov. 7, Sawyer said he went through the security scanner at Detroit Metropolitan Airport. “Evidently the scanner picked up on my urostomy bag, because I was chosen for a pat-down procedure.”

Due to his medical condition, Sawyer asked to be screened in private. “One officer looked at another, rolled his eyes and said that they really didn’t have any place to take me,” said Sawyer. “After I said again that I’d like privacy, they took me to an office.”

Sawyer wears pants two sizes too large in order to accommodate the medical equipment he wears. He’d taken off his belt to go through the scanner and once in the office with security personnel, his pants fell down around his ankles. “I had to ask twice if it was OK to pull up my shorts,” said Sawyer, “And every time I tried to tell them about my medical condition, they said they didn’t need to know about that.”

Before starting the enhanced pat-down procedure, a security officer did tell him what they were going to do and how they were going to it, but Sawyer said it wasn’t until they asked him to remove his sweatshirt and saw his urostomy bag that they asked any questions about his medical condition.

“One agent watched as the other used his flat hand to go slowly down my chest. I tried to warn him that he would hit the bag and break the seal on my bag, but he ignored me. Sure enough, the seal was broken and urine started dribbling down my shirt and my leg and into my pants.”

The security officer finished the pat-down, tested the gloves for any trace of explosives and then, Sawyer said, “He told me I could go. They never apologized. They never offered to help. They acted like they hadn’t seen what happened. But I know they saw it because I had a wet mark.”

Humiliated, upset and wet, Sawyer said he had to walk through the airport soaked in urine, board his plane and wait until after takeoff before he could clean up.

“I am totally appalled by the fact that agents that are performing these pat-downs have so little concern for people with medical conditions,” said Sawyer.

Sawyer completed his trip and had no problems with the security procedures at the Orlando International Airport on his journey back home. He said he plans to file a formal complaint with the TSA.

When he does, said TSA spokesperson Dwayne Baird, “We will review the matter and take appropriate action if necessary.” In the meantime, Baird encourages anyone with a medical condition to read the TSA’s website section on assistive devices and mobility aids.

The website says that travelers with disabilities and medical conditions have “the option of requesting a private screening” and that security officers “will not ask nor require you to remove your prosthetic device, cast, or support brace.”

Sawyer said he's written to his senators, state representatives and the president of the United States. He’s also shared details of the incident online with members of the nonprofit Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network, many of whom have offered support and shared their travel experiences.

“I am a good American and I want safety for all passengers as much as the next person," Sawyer said. "But if this country is going to sacrifice treating people like human beings in the name of safety, then we have already lost the war.”

Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network executive director Claire Saxton said that there are hundreds of thousands of people living with ostomies in the United States. “TSA agents need to be trained to listen when someone tells them have a health issue and trained in knowing what an ostomy is. No one living with an ostomy should be afraid of flying because they’re afraid of being humiliated at the checkpoint.”

Eric Lipp, executive director of Open Doors Association, which works with businesses and the disability community, called what happened to Sawyer “unfortunate.”

“But enhanced pat-downs are not a new issue for people with disabilities who travel," Lipp said. "They've always had trouble getting through the security checkpoint."

Still, Lipp said the TSA knows there’s a problem. “This came up during a recent meeting of the agency’s disability advisory board and I expect to see a procedure coming in place shortly that will directly address the pat-down procedures for people with disabilities.”

Harriet Baskas is a frequent contributor to msnbc.com, authors the “Stuck at the Airport” blog and is a columnist for USATODAY.com. You can follow her on Twitter .



-------------------------------------------------------

No one deserves to be humiliated like that.. Would it really have been so terribly inconvenient for the TSA to LISTEN to what this man was saying during the pat down procedure? Disgusting - and no excuse for it..

This story is outrageous. Indefensible.

It's incredibly sad that the "home of the free" has the stance that everyone is guilty until proven innocent. It's wrong. Not because "I" say so, but because, "innocent until proven guilty", is the essence of our justice system.

Meanwhile the Israeli stance is that 99.9% of travelers are innocent and have the best airline security in the world. Something is wrong with this picture.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Anyone else catch the Saturdy Night Live skit on the TSA last night? My husband and I were cracking up over it

 

[JLTraveling]

John Pistole (head of TSA) is on CNN right now. He's saying a whole lot of nothing, but I did get an idea from something he glossed over. Pistole claims that it's hard to find the balance for each traveler--some want absolute security, while others are more concerned about privacy.

My thought: Why not allow individual airlines to opt out? People who want "security at all costs" can fly the airlines that participate, while those who are comfortable with a certain level of risk can fly the opt-out airlines (which would presumably use either pre-9/11 security or more recent pre-enhanced pat down procedures). That way everybody wins.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

John Pistole (head of TSA) is on CNN right now. He's saying a whole lot of nothing, but I did get an idea from something he glossed over. Pistole claims that it's hard to find the balance for each traveler--some want absolute security, while others are more concerned about privacy.

My thought: Why not allow individual airlines to opt out? People who want "security at all costs" can fly the airlines that participate, while those who are comfortable with a certain level of risk can fly the opt-out airlines (which would presumably use either pre-9/11 security or more recent pre-enhanced pat down procedures). That way everybody wins.

Airlines share terminals and gates. In most airports, this would not be feasible.

 

[JLTraveling]

Airlines share terminals and gates. In most airports, this would not be feasible.

So? You have to have a specific boarding pass for a specific flight. The issue isn't that everyone's scared they'll blow up the airport--everyone's scared they'll blow up the plane itself. So don't let people with opt-out airline boarding passes "accidentally" board an opt-in plane. Doesn't matter where boarding occurs.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

So? You have to have a specific boarding pass for a specific flight. The issue isn't that everyone's scared they'll blow up the airport--everyone's scared they'll blow up the plane itself. So don't let people with opt-out airline boarding passes "accidentally" board an opt-in plane. Doesn't matter where boarding occurs.

Suppose I am a terrorist and I buy more than one ticket, on more than one airline?

I am not saying that I support the current measures, just pointing out that your suggestion is not viable. It would, in essence, end post 9/11 security measures for everyone.

 

[JLTraveling]

Suppose I am a terrorist and I buy more than one ticket, on more than one airline?

I am not saying that I support the current measures, just pointing out that your suggestion is not viable. It would, in essence, end post 9/11 security measures for everyone.

Then that would supposedly trigger automatic enhanced screening based on suspicious behavior patterns (just like buying a one-way ticket for cash).

I'm not being totally serious about this suggestion anyway, but it makes at least as much sense as what they're doing now. For every statement that Pistole backs up with "this is our ONLY alternative," I can think of at least five different solutions that don't use that particular alternative at all.

 

[bicker]

My thought: Why not allow individual airlines to opt out?

Because it would require each airline to have its own security realm within the terminal. In most airports, that's absolutely infeasible, and in most others it is financially prohibitive. Most passengers make their flight decisions driven very heavily by price, these days, and as a result your suggestion runs utterly counter to what most passengers want.

So? You have to have a specific boarding pass for a specific flight.

If you're holding a boarding pass for the "security-lite" airline, they'd have to strip-search you to ensure that you aren't holding another boarding pass, having had checked into two flights on two separate airlines at the same time. Indeed, what you've crafted is a scenario that is perfectly suited for a terrorist to exploit.

 

[JLTraveling]

Because it would require each airline to have its own security realm within the terminal. In most airports, that's absolutely infeasible, and in most others it is financially prohibitive. Most passengers make their flight decisions driven very heavily by price, these days, and as a result your suggestion runs utterly counter to what most passengers want.


They'd have to strip-search you to ensure that you haven't checked into two flights on two separate airlines at the same time. Indeed, what you've crafted is a scenario that is perfectly suited for a terrorist to exploit.

No it wouldn't. It would require a single alternate checkpoint staffed by private contractors, the cost of which was shared amongst all airlines that are opting out. And you might be surprised what portion of that cost the public would willingly bear. Not all, of course, but those who strongly prefer NOT to go through the new TSA procedures.

Of course they wouldn't have to strip-search you. What would that prove? They'd merely have to allow the airlines' computer systems to interface, triggering an automatic "suspicious behavior" alert for those holding simultaneous tickets on different airlines. IF that occurs, then there is probable cause for a secondary screening.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...I'm not being totally serious about this suggestion anyway, but it makes at least as much sense as what they're doing now. For every statement that Pistole backs up with "this is our ONLY alternative," I can think of at least five different solutions that don't use that particular alternative at all.

The only thing that makes these scanners a problem is our imagination. IMO, the only mistake that the TSA made was in not buying the safer scanners for every airport. Americans need to get over their prudish mindset. These scanners are used all over the world. No one is trying to get a peek at our nether regions. They are just trying to create a safer environment for flights - and with more than 10,000 flights per day in America, that is a good thing.

If I ran the TSA, 100% would be required to go through the scanners. Refuse to be scanned, you can't fly. I would never have considered the "enhanced" patdowns.

 

[eliza61]

With all the screams of not flying, seems like the airlines are cautiously optimistic.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2010/07/airlines-return-to-profits/100196/1

U.S. airlines begin reporting second-quarter earnings next week and -- in a change of tone from the past two years -- the outlook is cautiously optimistic. The Wall Street Journal writes "the industry appears poised to post its first meaningful profit since 2007's third quarter."

The Journal notes that eight of the nine biggest airlines are expected to report profits for the quarter, according to most Wall Street analysts. And even for the carrier that's not expected to post a profit -- American -- the Journal notes at least one analyst "foresees a slight profit for American, although Wall Street's mean estimate calls for a quarterly loss of three cents a share."

Overall, analysts say the industry could post a collective quarterly profit of about $1.7 billion -- a sharp turnaround from the industry's $1 billion loss during the same period a year ago.

What's driving the turnaround? Bloomberg News writes "a revival in business travel is filling planes to record levels and helping boost average fares collected by airlines. The recovery is occurring amid the busiest time of the year for air travel, allowing carriers to build cash and mend their balance sheets."

 

[bicker]

No it wouldn't. It would require a single alternate checkpoint staffed by private contractors, the cost of which was shared amongst all airlines that are opting out.

That's incorrect. You are overlooking the scenarios of exploitation. It serves your personal preference to do so, but yet-again you don't get to impose your personal preference on the system.

They'd merely have to allow the airlines' computer systems to interface, triggering an automatic "suspicious behavior" alert for those holding simultaneous tickets on different airlines.

Which would require an iron-clad system to ensure that each person has one and only one identity. You'd essentially need a passport to fly. And your passport number would be passed around between systems, rather than secured within a single system.

However, that "invasion of privacy" (as critics similar to those whining about these scanners would refer to it) isn't really significant because, yet-again, your scenario opens the system up to exploitation by terrorists. Two terrorists working together is all that is necessary... one goes through the security-lite entry, and passes the contraband off to the other that went through regular security.

Or are you suggesting that they put cameras in the bathroom stalls?

 

[kaytieeldr]

No it wouldn't. It would require a single alternate checkpoint

No. It would require a complete redesign of most airports. You would have to relocate all the "security-lite" airlines to a single structure to prevent passengers from cross-terminating. You would need to move other airlines to other terminals to accommodate the "security-lite" terminal/s, i.e. "full-security" terminals. Where an airport only has one terminal and so one security screening area, you would need to construct an entire additional terminal.

 

[bicker]

What's driving the turnaround? Bloomberg News writes "a revival in business travel is filling planes to record levels and helping boost average fares collected by airlines. The recovery is occurring amid the busiest time of the year for air travel, allowing carriers to build cash and mend their balance sheets."

Leisure travel is, at best, just paying the bills, so this is indeed good news for the airlines, as they profess. What's interesting about this trend though is that if the boss says be in Cleveland on Tuesday, and Phoenix on Wednesday, and back in the office on Thursday, then how many people are actually going to "refuse to fly" despite having boasted that that was what they would do rather than comply with this policy?

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Leisure travel is, at best, just paying the bills, so this is indeed good news for the airlines, as they profess. What's interesting about this trend though is that if the boss says be in Cleveland on Tuesday, and Phoenix on Wednesday, and back in the office on Thursday, then how many people are actually going to "refuse to fly" despite having boasted that that was what they would do rather than comply with this policy?

In this economy, no one will. If you have a job that pays well, you are not going to give it up for something like this. Why? Because, unless you plan on changing careers, chances are pretty good that your next job will also require travel of this nature.

I travel a lot in my line of work. No matter who I might work for, that would remain essentially unchanged.

 

[LuvOrlando]

The financial effects of what is happening TODAY will not be visible to the investors until the NEXT financial reporting period. What they are reporting now is what happened in the past. Pay close attention to the dates of the operating periods.

As luck would have it, the annual reports of all the airlines will be due to the SEC in a few months, along with the results of this particular quarter. Only then can anyone say anything with any degree of certainty.