TSA mess and the police

[OceanAnnie]

ok - even IF the naked pictures are stored - why would you care?

there is nothing on the scan that would make your son identifiable

See, I don't know why a person wouldn't care. There has been deception with the TSA and the scans. And there have been reports that they are stored.

It was in the news that a celebrity had his scan passed around by TSA employees. Not a pleasant thought.

 

[MWAZU39]

Do you really think watching out for the last attack is really making ANYONE safe? They are already past the underwear plan, and I'm guessing they are probably looking at freight alone right now, we know they are looking at it a bit after the whole printer ink plot. You know that if a palette is wrapped in plastic it doesn't get searched at all? The thought is the sender knows the contents so it'll be safe. And yes some freight ends up on commercial flights. So while they are searching passengers as much as they can without having to buy them a drink they are ignoring a MASSIVE loop hole. And besides, until they feel obligated to buy us a drink there are PLENTY of places to hide these things. Not to mention having people backed up in a massive line up at an airport is great target in itself. You can't make a free society 100% safe, trample our rights at the airports and they'll just move on to an easier target.

Completely agree with what you said above. I'm just tired of people complaining about the TSA patdowns.

Let the debating continue...

 

[eliza61]

You make a lot of valid points.

I read not too long ago that was some chatter about bomb implants, chest implants.

I don't know what the answer is, but it seems like a whole lot of money wasted screening people that aren't posing a threat.

They all are very valid points but I think one way we get to better solution is thru better dialoge and I'm not sure painting TSA agents as rapist and child molesters helps in any way to achieve those better solutions.

There is a famous saying (ok maybe not so famous, it was on a tv show) that goes "you can't prevent what you can't predict" and that's the problem with security and safety, it's impossible to "predict" with 100% accuracy what any body will do, especially some one who wants to do you harm.

It's an ever changing situation and the only thing we can do is to try and stay a step or two ahead with all the resources available. from technology to intel to pat downs.

 

[rie'smom]

I'm not complacent. I've look at the issue, I've experienced both the pat down and the scans, I've read both general blogs and TSA information. I've made a decision based on this information and my lifestyle.

I feel happy in my decision and see it neither as extortion or some great death to my civil liberties.

When I fly to Toledo next week on business I will again weigh my options and choices (imagine that, I still have a few choices, must not be a nazi state yet) and make another decision.

When I fly out to Vegas this Christmas I will review again.

When I fly to Tel Aviv next spring I will not review my choices because if you think this is invasive don't ever think of visiting Israel. LOL. but I will still go.

Ditto for my trip to Paris in May and my trip to WDW in August. All these flights I will have the choice of going or not going, submit to the required regulations of the various countries and federal regulations or not.

No one will extort money from me.

good night all.

I meant extortion used here:
Extortion is also often used to refer to everyday situations where one person feels obligated against their will, to another, in order to receive an essential service or avoid legal consequences.

 

[OceanAnnie]

They all are very valid points but I think one way we get to better solution is thru better dialoge and I'm not sure painting TSA agents as rapist and child molesters helps in any way to achieve those better solutions.

There is a famous saying that goes "you can't prevent what you can't predict" and the problem with security and safety is that it's impossible to "predict" with 100% accuracy what any body will do, especially some one who wants to do you harm.

It's an ever changing situation and the only thing we can do is to try and stay a step or two ahead with all the resources available. from technology to intel to pat downs.

Maybe I missed it. I don't know. But I don't recall reading anything as extreme as TSA agents portrayed as rapists and child molesters. There have been claims about groping and I think each case should be investigated. There is no job that is immune to the spectrum of human behaviors. If there is a bad apple, weed it out.

 

[eliza61]

ok - even IF the naked pictures are stored - why would you care?

there is nothing on the scan that would make your son identifiable

You know what is so interesting about this is that all these people who are running around swearing that the TSA agents are groping little boys and using their pictures of child porn, probably have these same kids in little league.

and always seem to forget the fact that most child molestation happens by some one the child knows or trust, ie teacher, coach, relative.
Acquaintance perpetrators are the most common abusers, constituting approximately 70-90% of all reported perpetrators but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of people trying to run little league coaches out of the country or painting them all as child porn addicts

So If your worrying about little kids getting felt up, better start looking a lot closer to home than at your TSA agents.

 

[rie'smom]

You know what is so interesting about this is that all these people who are running around swearing that the TSA agents are groping little boys and using their pictures of child porn, probably have these same kids in little league.

and always seem to forget the fact that most child molestation happens by some one the child knows or trust, ie teacher, coach, relative. but doesn't seem to be a whole lot of people trying to run little league coaches out of the country or painting them all as child porn addicts

I haven't seen anyone accuse TSA agents of being molesters. No one has said the agents should be run out of the country either.
Posts are being twisted.

 

[C.Ann]

I haven't seen anyone accuse TSA agents of being molesters. No one has said the agents should be run out of the country either.
Posts are being twisted.

You can say that again!!! (Underlining mine..) I got blasted for things I never said - without so much as an "I'm sorry, I misunderstood.."

I'm not going to go back and read the entire thread, but I think the only person who came right out and said "child molestors" and "sexually assaulting" in the same sentence was the OP..

 

[Magpie]

For anyone wondering where the "TSA agents are molesters" thread is coming from (snipping for space)...

I'm supposed to fly to Aruba next year and have been checking out the airfares but I haven't bought tickets because I AM NOT putting my DS12 and DD11 blindly into the hands of some out of control wackjob knowing I couldn't defend my kid without being arrested.

How can it be ok to tell me, a mother of an 11 year old pre-teen girl who is developed like a 16 year old that she has to either submit to egg damaging x-rays OR be physically molested by an adult? NOT going to happen.... so not going to happen.... not on my watch.

My DFi flew to Florida this past weekend. I asked him how security was, and he got pretty quiet. Our airport has the scanners now, but he wasn't given a choice to go through them or get the pat-down. He said there was one line, then agents seemed to be randomly putting people in the scanner line and pat-down line. He was directed to the pat-down line. And he said that was no quick pat-down. What made him the most uncomfortable was how the (male) agent went under his shirt and gave "the boys" a lot of attention. Not just a quick brush; he says he got completely felt up. Next time he hopes to get the "naked scanner."

See, this is getting out of hand, IMO.

These are entry level "wanna-be cops" grabbing private parts. I'm actually pretty floored that a lot of people seem to be a-okay with this. I don't care if it's male-male / female-female. So what?

(Next quote is referring to why TSA agents would choose their line of work...)

Just as any line of work - you know what you're getting yourself into, correct? Which makes me question the whole thing, even more.

FYI, I am very close to a TSA agent. This person happens to be a family member BTW, it's a good job for retired folks. As much as I like this person and as much as I KNOW he is of pure mind and soul I STILL am not ok with him groping my kid.

I don't blame the agents, but I'd have a very hard time telling my children that they should be still and submit to the sort of patdowns being described in the complaints about the new policies. We talk to our kids about good touch/bad touch and that no one should be touching certain parts of their bodies, and then we're supposed to turn around and tell them it is okay just this once to let the TSA agent feel our privates if we want to go to Disney World? I do see a problem with that.

Agreed. I have a 15 1/2 y.o, who's taller than me - and I still wouldn't feel comfortable with some strange man fondling his (it pains me to type this about my "baby") man-parts.

And yes, IMO - it's fondling. Any disagreement with that is simply semantics.

Why would I allow some woman or man to touch my DD or DS, God help anyone that touches my child like that. I will choose not to fly. This is a dog and pony show, always has been always will be. Just like anything, give people too much power and they will abuse it. It is disgusting.

Exactly, and I have a bigger problem, and that would be how to keep my fist from connecting with their face when they touched my child in that way.

I am really sorry that you suffered from abuse, but my kid hasn't and he or she may NOT be able to distinguish between the two, and I am sorry that it sickens you, but these kids are innocent and they should not have to be exposed to this either. And I agree with you , it isn't the same, yet. Some time it may be, The gov't isn't exactly on the ball and I guarantee you that before long they will have hired some idiot that is a molester and either they didn't do a thorough background check or he or she hasn't been caught yet. I can handle it for me, but touch my kids and I will go insane.

HOw do you know it isn't. Sorry but the sickos can get a job with the gov't. They will have some at some point, it is just a matter of time.

we all know that profiling is wrong, but go ahead and grope kids that is ok. Geez, Ain't happening here. but that is ok, DH won't fly anymore anyway.

Problem is, these people aren't professionals they are regular people like us. Nothing special and in no way have the right to do more than a normal pat down.

Don't kid yourself, they aren't police or highly trained professionals at all. Again, I won't fly because if they touched my DD on her chest or private area either me or DH would probably be in jail. Same for DS, it isn't happening. There isn't any place that I need to see that is worth that. If my kids decide they want to fly later in life then fine, but I not expose my kids to it because I want to go somewhere.

My opinion and others are free to get groped if they like but I choose not to.

I understand where you are coming from, I also understand that no one is going to touch my 11 yo DD breasts and crouch, no way, no how. Again same for DS. And according to some of these reports, it doesn't matter what the person wants. did you see the youtube about the man's mother in the wheel chair? There was no excuse for that, and yes I do believe that this did, can, and will happen again.

These agents spent years barely scanning luggage and not even looking at the scanner at the luggage went by, they could have cared less. This is the type of individual that is feeling you up. They have no business, Now, if they want to train some Dr's in how to do this, then fine, but sorry Jane and Joe off the street isn't feeling up anyone in my family.

I actually don't mind the scan that much, but apparently sometimes you aren't given a choice. That I do have a problem with. Just no touchy.

My point about abuse, is, What if you DS is being patted down, Joe gets a little to personal and your son just accepts it, Later dear sweet Joe,(who was just dong his job) gets arrested for child molestation. Does that mean you son wasn't sexually abused? I don't think so. And trust me the gov't will screw up and hire one of these jerks.

Besides searching the cargo (which they don't fully do yet) would make far more sense than forcing little kids to let some guy feel around the boys because he might have a bomb.

C.Ann, you're not in here.

 

[mhsjax]

I hardly think you can compare a parent, doctors, or nurse to the pat down police. Children will be familiar of course with their parents, and with their doctor and his/her nurse. The TSA agent will more than likely be a stranger.

Not to mention my child is 11 and is developed for her age. I don't want to subject her to something like this. If I was sure I could opt for the scanner I would. I don't want someone telling me that I have to have a pat down. well my child anyway, me not really a huge deal. I just don't trust that some of these people don't have a past. When hiring this many people at this salary, you don't know what you will get.

I understand that the Gov't has to have some sort of way of detecting certain material that could be used to take down a plane, I just hate the idea of kids getting felt up to do it. Also old people.

 

[Jennasis]

Like I said, you'll never find an issue on which everyone agrees. I continue to be baffled by those who equate being patted down with being groped, molested or sexually assaulted (though I totally understand people being uncomfortable or unwilling to be subjected to being touched by a stranger). And yet, I wouldn't be surprised to find out there was an instance of a TSA agent who touched a passenger innapropriately...just like Boy Scout Troop Leaders, Little League coaches, doctor's, dentist's, teacher's, janitor's, priests and ice- cream men all have been besmirched by the occasional dirty man/woman who victimized a child among their ranks.

The GOOD news for the outraged? You never have to come into contact with a TSA agent. It's totally in your own hands.

 

[C.Ann]

C.Ann, you're not in here.

Thank you!! Point made..



So from what I'm seeing, 6 posters in the entire thread - correct?

 

[LuvOrlando]

Anyone else find it incredibly interesting that SO MANY people are supporting invasive handling and exposure to radiation without any interest in the ethics and legality of the issue?

As for the term 'pat down', I think it's ridiculous to try and diminish what's going on by using the euphemism 'pat down'. A 'pat down' is what happened BEFORE, a 'pat down' does not include any sort of invasion of private parts. As for those of you who are made uncomfortable with the terms 'molest' and 'assault' good, you should be uncomfortable, they are ugly words and whats going on is equally ugly.

No way should some under-trained TSA agent have this kind of control over me or my kids simply because I walk into the facility.

Again, I'm all for keeping us safe but this has gone too far. I didn't do anything wrong so why should I be subjected to such treatment? It's just too much for me and it's too much for my kids. I agree all we have to do is not fly but why is that a choice we need to make? If nothing changes I will choose not to fly but I'm also not going to drive because I am used to traveling no more than 3 hours and frankly, I'm just not willing to inconvenience myself or my family more than 3-5 hours so I'll just stay local. To those of you who propose this as a simple solution I'd point out it sounds easy enough but if lots of people make the same choice as I do, and don't underestimate people like me, how long do you think the tourism industry can go on? You think the travel industry is doing poorly now, what do you think will happen if all the Moms start walking out of airports because we don't like what's happening to our kids? Think about it, think about the number of kids who don't get vaccinated, who don't eat processed foods & whose parents study the benefits of organic diets so they pay double at the grocery store. Toys in Happy Meals were just banned because it encourages kids to eat unhealthy diets. Do any of you REALLY think the typical American parent who can afford a leisure flight and vacation for their family is going to be ok with exposing themselves and their kids to radiation and/or invasive physical searches for a vacation? I don't think so. You can argue all you want but at the end of the day Moms decide what will or won't happen to their families and I think the number who are fine and dandy with this are going to be in the minority. You might be loud here but i don't think most parents are gong to fall in line with you, parents spook over a great deal less that this.

I'm on here because I'm mad. I want to go on vacation but I want my kids to be kept out of this more so I'm staying home. I'm not happy about it but I won't fly, not like this.

FYI, not everyone who was mistreated as kids is a-ok with being touched. Yay for those of you who got over it but not everyone has. Most people, in fact, have HUGE issues with any kind of non-consensual touching of any kind and have huge issues with control and feeling safe so don't pull the whole "It's ok with me so it should be ok with the world" card because it's simply not true. Being touched at all, never mind invasively, can be very traumatic for an abuse survivor. I scream if someone surprises me in even the most ordinary circumstances, even in my own house, even if it's my DH or kids doing the surprising. As for touching, well the ONLY people who can do that live in my house. No-one is an authority for where someone else's limits are so saying what is or isn't ok for everyone else because it's ok for you is way over the line. Shame on you for going there, you've got no right to speak for others ESPECIALLY about this, you should know better.

 

[mhsjax]

Like I said, you'll never find an issue on which everyone agrees. I continue to be baffled by those who equate being patted down with being groped, molested or sexually assaulted (though I totally understand people being uncomfortable or unwilling to be subjected to being touched by a stranger). And yet, I wouldn't be surprised to find out there was an instance of a TSA agent who touched a passenger innapropriately...just like Boy Scout Troop Leaders, Little League coaches, doctor's, dentist's, teacher's, janitor's, priests and ice- cream men all have been besmirched by the occasional dirty man/woman who victimized a child among their ranks.

The GOOD news for the outraged? You never have to come into contact with a TSA agent. It's totally in your own hands.

I really don't have a problem with being patted down, from what I have read it is going beyond that in some instances and these people need to be dealt with. I don't want someone who is abusing their authority to get ahold of my kid. I also agree that it happens in all area of life, you just can't control everyone you hire to do a job and that is my point. I don't equate being patted down with being molested or assaulted that would be insulting to some one who had truly been molested but it seems to me that it may be getting out of hand and before I fly I will do my research.
I do love to fly and have never had a problem so far, and I want to keep it that way. Getting DH to fly is another story, complete control freak. And unless he is flying the plane, just really isn't comfortable, and if he is flying the plane then no one would be comfortable, cause he can't fly.

I also know that the airports are so busy in some of the larger cities that the Gov't probably can't hire fast enough and I worry about the screening process for hiring some of these employees. Certain jobs require more security than others.

 

[Jennasis]

Anyone else find it incredibly interesting that SO MANY people are supporting invasive handling and exposure to radiation without any interest in the ethics and legality of the issue?

As for the term 'pat down', I think it's ridiculous to try and diminish what's going on by using the euphemism 'pat down'. A 'pat down' is what happened BEFORE, a 'pat down' does not include any sort of invasion of private parts. As for those of you who are made uncomfortable with the terms 'molest' and 'assault' good, you should be uncomfortable, they are ugly words and whats going on is equally ugly.

No way should some under-trained TSA agent have this kind of control over me or my kids simply because I walk into the facility.

Again, I'm all for keeping us safe but this has gone too far. I didn't do anything wrong so why should I be subjected to such treatment? It's just too much for me and it's too much for my kids. I agree all we have to do is not fly but why is that a choice we need to make? If nothing changes I will choose not to fly but I'm also not going to drive because I am used to traveling no more than 3 hours and frankly, I'm just not willing to inconvenience myself or my family more than 3-5 hours so I'll just stay local. To those of you who propose this as a simple solution I'd point out it sounds easy enough but if lots of people make the same choice as I do, and don't underestimate people like me, how long do you think the tourism industry can go on? You think the travel industry is doing poorly now, what do you think will happen if all the Moms start walking out of airports because we don't like what's happening to our kids? Think about it, think about the number of kids who don't get vaccinated, who don't eat processed foods & whose parents study the benefits of organic diets so they pay double at the grocery store. Toys in Happy Meals were just banned because it encourages kids to eat unhealthy diets. Do any of you REALLY think the typical American parent who can afford a leisure flight and vacation for their family is going to be ok with exposing themselves and their kids to radiation and/or invasive physical searches for a vacation? I don't think so. You can argue all you want but at the end of the day Moms decide what will or won't happen to their families and I think the number who are fine and dandy with this are going to be in the minority. You might be loud here but i don't think most parents are gong to fall in line with you, parents spook over a great deal less that this.

So, I have to ask...what exactly happened to you? Did you experience something or are you just going on the stories of others, cause your original post and the handful of others here are the ONLY complaints I've heard about the screening process lately.

As for your last line.. What? You think mommies and their kids are the only ones who fly? I would be very surprised if the "angry mom" lobby will bring down both the airline industry and tourism. Course, I could always be wrong. I hope not though...man would it suck to see our country's economy ruined even further by paranoid moms.

 

[2Kds2K9]

This is the world we live in today. If you don't want to subject yourself or your family to a pat down or body scan, then you are welcome to stay home or travel via other means. I for one ALWAYS thank the TSA for doing their jobs. I'm sure they don't like it anymore than we do. Would you want to stand there all day and put your hands on strangers? Or sit at the screening machine and look at all those bodies all day? Not all are Kim Kardashian or Brad Pitt in case you haven't noticed.

Do we know how many incidents they have diverted due to the daily screening? No, and we probably never will. We have to keep in mind that our enemies are always out there trying to find the loopholes.

Flying is a choice. So, I choose to fly and will have to go through the screening process just like everyone else. And I will continue to thank the TSA person who had to pat me down or see my body on a screen. (poor guy)

 

[mhsjax]

This is the world we live in today. If you don't want to subject yourself or your family to a pat down or body scan, then you are welcome to stay home or travel via other means. I for one ALWAYS thank the TSA for doing their jobs. I'm sure they don't like it anymore than we do. Would you want to stand there all day and put your hands on strangers? Or sit at the screening machine and look at all those bodies all day? Not all are Kim Kardashian or Brad Pitt in case you haven't noticed.

Do we know how many incidents they have diverted due to the daily screening? No, and we probably never will. We have to keep in mind that our enemies are always out there trying to find the loopholes.

Flying is a choice. So, I choose to fly and will have to go through the screening process just like everyone else. And I will continue to thank the TSA person who had to pat me down or see my body on a screen. (poor guy)

The Gov't or the powers that be, have to do what they can, I don't happen to agree with the way that some of it may be done. That is my choice and I may or may not fly. That being said, I don't think that the gov't is necessarily abusing power, but my mistrust is in the general public that is hired. Again, for me it boils down to my kids, I want guarantees that all of these people are legit and I can't get that, you can't get that anywhere, so until I am sure that no one is going to put their hands in the private areas of my kids, Then I probably won't fly.

I realize that there has to be screening measures but I fly only for vacation and although I do enjoy it, I don't know what I will do in the future. Last time I took a flight anywhere, all you had to do was walk through the little thingy (whatever it is called) and take off your shoes. Everyone was pleasant but that doesn't mean I want their hands on me. I didn't like them that much.

 

[rie'smom]

This is the world we live in today. If you don't want to subject yourself or your family to a pat down or body scan, then you are welcome to stay home or travel via other means. I for one ALWAYS thank the TSA for doing their jobs. I'm sure they don't like it anymore than we do. Would you want to stand there all day and put your hands on strangers? Or sit at the screening machine and look at all those bodies all day? Not all are Kim Kardashian or Brad Pitt in case you haven't noticed.

Do we know how many incidents they have diverted due to the daily screening? No, and we probably never will. We have to keep in mind that our enemies are always out there trying to find the loopholes.

Flying is a choice. So, I choose to fly and will have to go through the screening process just like everyone else. And I will continue to thank the TSA person who had to pat me down or see my body on a screen. (poor guy)

Do you know how many people the TSA has prevented from boarding have ever been prosecuted for actually being a threat to the flight they were prevented from boarding? ZERO, yes 0, nada, zip, not one
In other words, the morons who have prevented people from boarding did so for no credible reason- at least not one provable in court.
I hope and pray that some of these passengers sue the self righteous pants off the idiots who are in charge of this joke of a gov't agency.

What will the boneheads do when all of their ridiculous security measures fail? There was the dumb shoe bomber but the terrorists who plan big attacks are smart. Groping and scans won't stop them. If they decide to shoot a missile at a plane, will all the people who went through TSA "security" feel any better? The adage "where there's a will, there's a way" could be the terrorist motto.

 

[Magpie]

Most people, in fact, have HUGE issues with any kind of non-consensual touching of any kind and have huge issues with control and feeling safe so don't pull the whole "It's ok with me so it should be ok with the world" card because it's simply not true. Being touched at all, never mind invasively, can be very traumatic for an abuse survivor. I scream if someone surprises me in even the most ordinary circumstances, even in my own house, even if it's my DH or kids doing the surprising. As for touching, well the ONLY people who can do that live in my house. No-one is an authority for where someone else's limits are so saying what is or isn't ok for everyone else because it's ok for you is way over the line. Shame on you for going there, you've got no right to speak for others ESPECIALLY about this, you should know better.

I don't think anyone was saying "It's ok with me so it should be ok with the world". I think this point was, "I know what REAL sexual molestation is, and this isn't it."

The patdowns are well advertised. Everyone has been warned that they're in place. If they are likely to be traumatic to you, then don't undergo them. Spend your vacation dollars locally, or discover your country by train instead.

 

[eliza61]

The patdowns are well advertised. Everyone has been warned that they're in place. If they are likely to be traumatic to you, then don't undergo them. Spend your vacation dollars locally, or discover your country by train instead.

Anyone else find it incredibly interesting that SO MANY people are supporting invasive handling and exposure to radiation without any interest in the ethics and legality of the issue?

As for the term 'pat down', I think it's ridiculous to try and diminish what's going on by using the euphemism 'pat down'. A 'pat down' is what happened BEFORE, a 'pat down' does not include any sort of invasion of private parts. As for those of you who are made uncomfortable with the terms 'molest' and 'assault' good, you should be uncomfortable, they are ugly words and whats going on is equally ugly.

I'm on here because I'm mad. I want to go on vacation but I want my kids to be kept out of this more so I'm staying home. I'm not happy about it but I won't fly, not like this.

FYI, not everyone who was mistreated as kids is a-ok with being touched. Yay for those of you who got over it but not everyone has. Most people, in fact, have HUGE issues with any kind of non-consensual touching of any kind and have huge issues with control and feeling safe so don't pull the whole "It's ok with me so it should be ok with the world" card because it's simply not true. Being touched at all, never mind invasively, can be very traumatic for an abuse survivor. I scream if someone surprises me in even the most ordinary circumstances, even in my own house, even if it's my DH or kids doing the surprising. As for touching, well the ONLY people who can do that live in my house. No-one is an authority for where someone else's limits are so saying what is or isn't ok for everyone else because it's ok for you is way over the line. Shame on you for going there, you've got no right to speak for others ESPECIALLY about this, you should know better.

Problem solved. stay home. no touching, no xrays, no pedophiles groping your kids. NO one is uncomfortable with ugly words if they were some semblance of the truth. People are uncomfortable with ugly words when they are used to distort, mislead, and inflame.

Have you even experience this so called "physical assualt" yet?