TSA mess and the police

[DMRick]

I'm on that board and I've been reading these things since way before the changes. This is not new, although I hope we see less and less of the agents not being sympathetic (and careful).
There should be education, I agree. But I'm still not seeing a lot of these incidents. I'm seeing some of the same incidents being posted over and over on several boards, however.
No one here is saying that there shouldn't be education and the agents shouldn't be kind. Not a person.

Hope these links make it . . . ostomy incidents . . .
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/15223052-post40.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/15223426-post42.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/15224453-post45.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/15226066-post50.html

This is from that thread . . .

writer is an officer with The United Ostomy Associations of America, Inc (www.ostomy.org )

 

[npmommie]

Okay, anybody who's flying this holiday season and has a sense of humor, check out today's t-shirt on woot.com: http://shirt.woot.com/

I'm in for one!

love it!!!!

 

[C.Ann]

I'm on that board and I've been reading these things since way before the changes. This is not new, although I hope we see less and less of the agents not being sympathetic (and careful).
There should be education, I agree. But I'm still not seeing a lot of these incidents. I'm seeing some of the same incidents being posted over and over on several boards, however.
No one here is saying that there shouldn't be education and the agents shouldn't be kind. Not a person.

So how "many" incidents are enough? And does it have to interfere with your (general your) family/loved ones or you (general you) before it's worthy of great concern for the many, many people who have issues (personal) or medical (ostomy bags and such)?

 

[pearl-g]

yeah i hear its been getting crazy

 

[pearl-g]

honestly though i appreciate the security

 

[DMRick]

I've not seen a single person say, that because I don't have a problem, you shouldn't. I have seen people say, if you have a problem, then you may not be able to fly at this time..which is true enough.

I have seen fear mongering on the internet (some people think putting fear into people about the agents and mentioning they are getting their thrills etc will incite people to be angry about this, even past what they may already be) and I had the feeling that those on this thread that mentioned it was saying that some people on the internet are playing on the fear. I didn't think it was meant the people on this thread.

It really is what it is for now. They have hinted towards change and already there have been two major changes. If people write congressmen, etc, there might be more. But until or if there are, if it really is troublesome to you (general you), then flying will have to wait to see if there are changes you can live with. I'm not saying you are foolish or selfish at all. But I'm also saying it doesn't bother me and so I'll continue to fly, and I won't sign petitions or complain about it.

There are some on here, who portray (unless I'm reading them wrong) that those of us who see a problem are simply being selfish or foolish or fear mongering. That's who I was sort of addressing. It was also a little rhetorical.

 

[eliza61]

I don't think the civil rights movement was all peace and flowers. And they were also watchdogs for injustices. Most of us on this thread are pointing out the incidents and the potential for abuse - most of us are not screaming that all tsa agents are bad.

Oh no, definitely not that at all. but the point I was in my convoluted way trying to make is that most of these threads including this one if you go back to the begininng start off with some extremely flaming language. from post #1

Come on, I don't think I was quite that dramatic . Although ... now that you mention it ...

There are some on here, who portray (unless I'm reading them wrong) that those of us who see a problem are simply being selfish or foolish or fear mongering. That's who I was sort of addressing. It was also a little rhetorical.

And I surely dont' see it as the downfall to civilization , but I do think citizens of any country should be alert to possible tyranny from their government. Whether this is tyranny or not can be debated, but we should be the watchdogs IMO.

Fair enough. I for one do not dismiss your concerns at all

So just in case, I've some how given that impression please know that, that is not true.
I think I've stated on a few other threads about this:

I fully respect peoples right to want to change these policies if they find them offensive. Do I equate them with rape, groping, molestation, nazism or any of the other descriptions that have made the rounds in this thread. I do not.
Do I think this is a take over by the government, nope but fully respect your right if you do. but would appreciate if you (general, not in particular) knock off the inference that I am some how less of constitution loving "american" because this is not particularly upsetting to me.
Do I think that equating TSA agents with child molestors and pedophiles ridiculous ( and you know darn well that's what some folks have been calling them) yep. just like any other profession that deals with the public there are rotten apples that should be weeded out.
Do I think TSA has a higher precentage of people abusing their authority. Nope, I've got big city police departments and the catholic church running neck and neck.

Let's see, what else. Oh will I continue to fly. almost guaranteed.

 

[DMRick]

I guess enough that people stop flying over it.

There are also many many many many people that it is not affecting at all. Some feel safer with more security. So, should that safety be taken from them? Do you (general you) not feel for those who feel the security isn't enough?

It is a shame that a percent of people may now feel they can fly. This isn't new. People on regular oxygen also can't fly. People who can't get down the aisle into a seat, because they can't walk can't fly. People who are claustrophobic can't fly. People with severe ear problems can't fly. People who can't afford passports (or don't feel they should have to have one) can't fly out of the country. And some of these problems were there before the new scanners and pat downs.

So IMO, it's not that I don't have concern, I do. But until they feel they (TSA) have a way to make changes, it's there.

So how "many" incidents are enough? And does it have to interfere with your (general your) family/loved ones or you (general you) before it's worthy of great concern for the many, many people who have issues (personal) or medical (ostomy bags and such)?

 

[DMRick]

Oh no, definitely not that at all. but the point I was in my convoluted way trying to make is that most of these threads including this one if you go back to the begininng start off with some extremely flaming language. from post #1


Fair enough. I for one do not dismiss your concerns at all

So just in case, I think I've stated on a few other threads.
I fully respect peoples right to want to change these policies if they find them offensive. Do I equate them with rape, groping, molestation, nazism or any of the other descriptions that have made the rounds in this thread. I do not.
Do I think this is a take over by the government, nope but fully respect your right if you do. but would appreciate if you (general, not in particular) knock off the inference that I am some how less of constitution loving "american" because this is not particularly upsetting to me.
Do I think the equating TSA agents with child molestors and pedophiles ridiculous, yep. just like any other profession that deals with the public there are rotten apples that should be weeded out.
Do I think TSA has a higher precentage of people abusing their authority. Nope, I've got big city police departments and the catholic church running neck and neck.

Let's see, what else. Oh will I continue to fly. almost guarenteed.

 

[Nancy F]

love it!!!!

Poor Santa! I just got one. LOL Thanks!
Nancy

 

[skater]

I've not seen a single person say, that because I don't have a problem, you shouldn't. I have seen people say, if you have a problem, then you may not be able to fly at this time..which is true enough.

I have seen fear mongering on the internet (some people think putting fear into people about the agents and mentioning they are getting their thrills etc will incite people to be angry about this, even past what they may already be) and I had the feeling that those on this thread that mentioned it was saying that some people on the internet are playing on the fear. I didn't think it was meant the people on this thread.

It really is what it is for now. They have hinted towards change and already there have been two major changes. If people write congressmen, etc, there might be more. But until or if there are, if it really is troublesome to you (general you), then flying will have to wait to see if there are changes you can live with. I'm not saying you are foolish or selfish at all. But I'm also saying it doesn't bother me and so I'll continue to fly, and I won't sign petitions or complain about it.

Its been a little more negative than that - I know the word selfish has been used by at least one poster .

 

[skater]

Oh no, definitely not that at all. but the point I was in my convoluted way trying to make is that most of these threads including this one if you go back to the begininng start off with some extremely flaming language. from post #1


Fair enough. I for one do not dismiss your concerns at all

So just in case, I've some how given that impression please know that, that is not true.
I think I've stated on a few other threads about this:

I fully respect peoples right to want to change these policies if they find them offensive. Do I equate them with rape, groping, molestation, nazism or any of the other descriptions that have made the rounds in this thread. I do not.
Do I think this is a take over by the government, nope but fully respect your right if you do. but would appreciate if you (general, not in particular) knock off the inference that I am some how less of constitution loving "american" because this is not particularly upsetting to me.
Do I think that equating TSA agents with child molestors and pedophiles ridiculous ( and you know darn well that's what some folks have been calling them) yep. just like any other profession that deals with the public there are rotten apples that should be weeded out.
Do I think TSA has a higher precentage of people abusing their authority. Nope, I've got big city police departments and the catholic church running neck and neck.

Let's see, what else. Oh will I continue to fly. almost guaranteed.

Understood .

 

[CPT Tripss]

I read each and every one of those links.. I only wish that you had posted the full comments - associated with the links - right here, as I'm sure there are many who won't bother to read them..

How did I feel by the time I was done reading?

No one deserves that type of humiliation simply because they have a medical condition and purchased an airline ticket..

Those with diabetes pumps and/or supplies? Beware - you really need to read those links..

Well apparently you missed the lecture about posting things in their entirety.

You are correct, I probably should have.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Very true but agendas work best if the are based on facts and mutual understanding.

I wonder how well the civil rights movement would have worked if instead of stressing equality, love and non violence we would have run around screaming all white people are racist KKK members lynching us and all white men in the south are raping black women.

Even though those incidents may have happened that is not what we made the agenda about.

My contemporaneous Philly white boy experience was that it took pictures of fire hoses, dogs biting, little kids being spit on and bloodied heads to get the attention of enough of my parents generation and much of mine.

Not that I want to compare the issues at this time.

 

[C.Ann]

I guess enough that people stop flying over it.

There are also many many many many people that it is not affecting at all. Some feel safer with more security. So, should that safety be taken from them? Do you (general you) not feel for those who feel the security isn't enough?

It is a shame that a percent of people may now feel they can fly. This isn't new. People on regular oxygen also can't fly. People who can't get down the aisle into a seat, because they can't walk can't fly. People who are claustrophobic can't fly. People with severe ear problems can't fly. People who can't afford passports (or don't feel they should have to have one) can't fly out of the country. And some of these problems were there before the new scanners and pat downs.

So IMO, it's not that I don't have concern, I do. But until they feel they (TSA) have a way to make changes, it's there.

Very respectfully - so we can play nice - let me address my view point on what you have posted above..

First of all - security.. I have seen no proof (as of yet) that these new measures (specifically the enhanced pat downs) will be effective in terms of increasing the safety of anyone.. If you have seen something - online, here, or the other boards you frequent - I promise you I will read the link(s) that you provide.. I don't even recall people saying, "Oh, I feel much, much safer with these new measures.." - but again, it may be out there and I have missed it.. If so, I'll be happy to read those links as well..

Secondly, I will agree that there "have" been segments of the population that could never fly - for the reasons you listed above - but due to these new measures, they have just knocked out an entire segment of the population that were able to fly prior to this.. So I'm going to ask you a question - since you and your DH travel quite a bit.. (And believe me, I pray this never, ever happens to either of you - honestly, I do..)

Let's say one of you ended up with colon cancer and had to wear a colostomy bag.. You're at the airport and you are randomly selected for a pat down (since it has been established that flyers are being chosen "randomly" - not just for something obvious).. I'll be generous and say they take you to a private area (which isn't always the case).. You or your DH are forced to pull your pants and underwear down - so your bag can be inspected (even though their site claims that they don't do this).. The pat down dislodges the bag - you now have feces running down your leg and all over your clothes - and you have no choice but to leave that area with soiled clothes and your colostomy bag no longer intact.. Would that change the way you feel about what others are being faced with right now?

I think the problem is that we're looking at it from two different angles.. You are looking at it from the angle of a person who doesn't suffer from any of the issues previously mentioned and I assume (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that the majority of your family members that fly (with the exception of your sister that you mentioned previously) also don't have personal or medical issues that would result in the scenario I have described above..

However, I'm looking at it from the angle of someone who does have personal and/or medical issues, has family members who have personal and/or medical issues, that could fly with a certain degree of physical/emotional comfort (prior to these new measures) and now can't..

The million dollar question is "why"? The logical answer would be that these new measures will insure greater safety, but there is nothing to prove that it has - or will..

Throw in the fact that terrorists tend to stay one step ahead of us, they know what the new procedures are - so where do you think they will hide their "weapons of destruction" now? There's pretty much only one place left (other than the cargo section of the airplanes) - body cavities.. At which point "what" will have to be searched before you can board a plane?? The TSA have no place to go from here - other than strip searches with body cavity searches.. Are you prepared for that next" step? We never thought we would even get to this step - yet here we are..

So - I think I've clarified why you and I see this from different angles - yes?

(And I also think we're having a very civil conversation here..)

As I said earlier in this post, I would be happy to read any links you care to provide.. Maybe you have seen information that I haven't..

---------------------------

Oh - and someone else was mentioning people thinking that TSA agents are "getting their jollies" while patting down people; are child molestors; etc. -and I want to go on record as saying that I don't feel that way at all..

(Nor do I have a problem with the scanners.. At my age, I'm too old to worry about a little radiation..)

 

[CPT Tripss]

I've not seen a single person say, that because I don't have a problem, you shouldn't. I have seen people say, if you have a problem, then you may not be able to fly at this time..which is true enough.

I have seen fear mongering on the internet (some people think putting fear into people about the agents and mentioning they are getting their thrills etc will incite people to be angry about this, even past what they may already be) and I had the feeling that those on this thread that mentioned it was saying that some people on the internet are playing on the fear. I didn't think it was meant the people on this thread.

It really is what it is for now. They have hinted towards change and already there have been two major changes. If people write congressmen, etc, there might be more. But until or if there are, if it really is troublesome to you (general you), then flying will have to wait to see if there are changes you can live with. I'm not saying you are foolish or selfish at all. But I'm also saying it doesn't bother me and so I'll continue to fly, and I won't sign petitions or complain about it.

ya know, there are folks saying that all the intrusiveness and even more is worth it so another plane isn't destroyed, with all aboard. Is that the fear mongering you mean?

 

[CPT Tripss]

I guess enough that people stop flying over it.

There are also many many many many people that it is not affecting at all. Some feel safer with more security. So, should that safety be taken from them? Do you (general you) not feel for those who feel the security isn't enough?

It is a shame that a percent of people may now feel they can fly. This isn't new. People on regular oxygen also can't fly. People who can't get down the aisle into a seat, because they can't walk can't fly. People who are claustrophobic can't fly. People with severe ear problems can't fly. People who can't afford passports (or don't feel they should have to have one) can't fly out of the country. And some of these problems were there before the new scanners and pat downs.

So IMO, it's not that I don't have concern, I do. But until they feel they (TSA) have a way to make changes, it's there.

Not exactly . . . a good friend of mine is paraplegic and uses a power chair. He flies regularly for his consulting job. The airlines have special chairs and provide assistance. it may be because they want his business but it is also because they are required by law.

 

[C.Ann]

Well apparently you missed the lecture about posting things in their entirety.

You are correct, I probably should have.

If it wasn't a moderator that gave you the lecture, it wasn't worth the time that it took to be typed out..

No one owns this thread - no one can tell you how to post - and if you don't care for the style of how someone else posts, that's what we have the "ignore" button for..

 

[eliza61]

My contemporaneous Philly white boy experience was that it took pictures of fire hoses, dogs biting, little kids being spit on and bloodied heads to get the attention of enough of my parents generation and much of mine.

Not that I want to compare the issues at this time.

You know whats so ironic about that cpt, is that by the time the national media got those images many, many african americans were ready to leave the movement and get violent. We simply believed the white american would never ever gives us our rights. I had 2 older brothers and my mom sent them up to NYC to get them out of Tenn. they went out and purchased guns and were pretty much simply planning on going to birmingham and start shooting.
I was a little girl so I wasn't allowed at many protest except at church but by the time you saw those images we really felt that it was either going to be the federal government intervention or we were going to die.

So by the time you got those images we began pursuing legal action (my mother was a civil rights attorney) so I dont have a deep distrust of the federal government because basically John q public would have never ever come around and it took governmental action to force almost every single issue.

Totally no correlation, whatsoever just some personal recollection to the images.

I now return you to your regularly schedule program.

 

[OceanAnnie]

You know whats so ironic about that cpt, is that by the time the national media got those images many, many african americans were ready to leave the movement and get violent. We simply believed the white american would never ever gives us our rights. I had 2 older brothers and my mom sent them up to NYC to get them out of Tenn. they went out and purchased guns and were pretty much simply planning on going to birmingham and start shooting.
I was a little girl so I wasn't allowed at many protest except at church but by the time you saw those images we really felt that it was either going to be the federal government intervention or we were going to die.

So by the time you got those images we began pursuing legal action (my mother was a civil rights attorney) so I dont have a deep distrust of the federal government because basically John q public would have never ever come around and it took governmental action to force the issue.

I now return you to your regularly schedule program.

Not every "forced issue" is a good one.

The Tuskegee experiment comes to mind.