Transgender Gym Mess

[Dawnlight]

Apropos to this discussion:

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/...athroom-bans-are-urinal-selfie-campaign090315

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Okay, but plenty of people do get naked in change rooms.

But me (the trans man me) isn't going to have a chance to get naked, because everyone will start freaking out when I walk in with my beard and business suit.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

I think maybe some of the confusion, at least in my opinion, is stemming from the claim that gender and sex are different. Just because society tells us so, doesn't mean its fact.

Huh? I think you've added to the confusion. I don't even understand what you are saying?

 

[Dawnlight]

See there's the problem. You automatically jump to the idea that I'm saying a transgender person would be more likely to make an accusation against someone. That's you looking at an opinion that's different from yours and automatically assuming it's coming from somewhere it isn't.

Then please explain how a physically female teen (though we are discussing one who appears outwardly as male) puts men at risk for any number of accusations.

Putting men in a situation where they are alone with a physically female teen, all in various states of undress, absolutely puts them at risks for any number of accusations.
It has nothing to do with assuming the men would act violently or inappropriately.
The truth of the world in which we live is many men would be incredibly uncomfortable in that situation.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

But me (the trans man me) isn't going to have a chance to get naked, because everyone will start freaking out when I walk in with my beard and business suit.

Which is why it's probably best to use the family change room.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Then please explain how a physically female teen (though we are discussing one who appears outwardly as male) puts men at risk for any number of accusations.

You are joking, right?

 

[Dawnlight]

You are joking, right?

No, not at all. You put it out there, defend your statement.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Which is why it's probably best to use the family change room.

If that's available as an option. It isn't everywhere.

 

[sunshinehighway]

No, not at all. You put it out there, defend your statement.

Oh ok. You are right. It's perfect fine to put teens with female body parts and grown men in area where they will be alone and in various states of undress. How silly of me to think that may lead to some type of bad situation. You're right. It's ridiculous to think the men might fear being accused of something inappropriate because someone takes something they say or do the wrong way. We all know that nobody ever takes anything the wrong way. People always react to everything just as one expects them to. I mean we, as a society, encourage men to undress around unknown teens with female body parts.
Give me a break.

 

[Bec3b1g]

Which is why it's probably best to use the family change room.

Hmmmmm........Sounds very familiar to our Don't Ask Don't Tell military policy. It was a definite step in the right direction when it was first enacted with the best of intentions, but has since been repealed. You can be gay, just hide it. An almost 20 year span until it was OK to be gay and serve openly.

So you're saying that it's OK to be transgender, just don't go in the appropriate locker room where someone might discover you are transgender? I guess any step is a step forward. At some point, we will look back at these discussions much like DADT.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

In my experience, transgender people who have not physically transitioned, especially younger ones, tend to be pretty protective of their privacy and their safety. The majority are going to choose to use the cubicle or otherwise make choices that protect that privacy, rather than jumping into a communal shower.

Having said that, I do think that, given the huge problem of violence against trans individuals, I think that offering those individuals who are more obviously trans (e.g. have physical features that, even when closed, may make people think the are the opposite gender) to use a separate space -- whether it's a single stall bathroom, or a family changing room, is appropriate. But offer is the key word. The choice to segregate should be up to the individual.

 

[mjkacmom]

Oh ok. You are right. It's perfect fine to put teens with female body parts and grown men in area where they will be alone and in various states of undress. How silly of me to think that may lead to some type of bad situation. You're right. It's ridiculous to think the men might fear being accused of something inappropriate because someone takes something they say or do the wrong way. We all know that nobody ever takes anything the wrong way. People always react to everything just as one expects them to. I mean we, as a society, encourage men to undress around unknown teens with female body parts.
Give me a break.

How about putting a young man, dressed as a woman, makeup, hair done, into a locker room full of half dressed young men? Because no one is going to mess with her, right? No safety issues there.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Hmmmmm........Sounds very familiar to our Don't Ask Don't Tell military policy. It was a definite step in the right direction when it was first enacted with the best of intentions, but has since been repealed. You can be gay, just hide it. An almost 20 year span until it was OK to be gay and serve openly.

So you're saying that it's OK to be transgender, just don't go in the appropriate locker room where someone might discover you are transgender? I guess any step is a step forward. At some point, we will look back at these discussions much like DADT.

I think forcing it into the open could be quite uncomfortable for all involved. Does the transgendered REALLY want to be "discovered" by random strangers???

 

[sunshinehighway]

How about putting a young man, dressed as a woman, makeup, hair done, into a locker room full of half dressed young men? Because no one is going to mess with her, right? No safety issues there.

I don't know what the answer is.
A specific situation with was put out there earlier and that's what I was talking about.
Somehow that turned into me actually having to defend the idea that men could be uncomfortable and have a legitimate fear with having a physically female teen undressing and shower in a locker room with them.
Honestly this is all getting ridiculous with some posters just looking to find bigotry in anything and refusing to see even the most easy to understand things.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I think forcing it into the open could be quite uncomfortable for all involved. Does the transgendered REALLY want to be "discovered" by random strangers???

No one is proposing forcing trans people to do anything. If a trans man or trans woman chooses to change in the stall, or wait until he or she is home to take a shower, or choose a gym that offers more privacy, they are welcome to do so.

Just like DADT didn't require anyone to tell anyone their sexual orientation. It just allowed them to do so.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

I don't think this is ridiculous, really, I think it is helpful to think through different situations and how we can be supportive of people.

 

[mjkacmom]

I don't know what the answer is.
A specific situation with was put out there earlier and that's what I was talking about.
Somehow that turned into me actually having to defend the idea that men could be uncomfortable and have a legitimate fear with having a physically female teen undressing and shower in a locker room with them.
Honestly this is all getting ridiculous with some posters just looking to find bigotry in anything and refusing to see even the most easy to understand things.

I really think that transgendered individuals prefer to appear the gender they identify. I'd be very surprised to hear about problems with them stripping down in public locker rooms, causing problems. That certainly didn't happen at our high school, and not in the media. Heck, all this poor woman did in the article was hang up her purse! I'm sure more would hear about naked transgendered people, if it was a big issue.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

No one is proposing forcing trans people to do anything. If a trans man or trans woman chooses to change in the stall, or wait until he or she is home to take a shower, or choose a gym that offers more privacy, they are welcome to do so.

Just like DADT didn't require anyone to tell anyone their sexual orientation. It just allowed them to do so.

I was talking about forcing it upon others.


So, for those keeping score:

*A physical male has the right to avoid undressing with other physical males.
*A physical female has the right to avoid undressing with other physical females.

*A physical male does NOT have the right to avoid undressing with physical females.
*A physical female does NOT have the right to avoid undressing with physical males.

Good to know.

 

[Gracie09]

I was talking about forcing it upon others.


So, for those keeping score:

*A physical male has the right to avoid undressing with other physical males.
*A physical female has the right to avoid undressing with other physical females.

*A physical male does NOT have the right to avoid undressing with physical females.
*A physical female does NOT have the right to avoid undressing with physical males.

Good to know.

The others would have the same rights to change in the locker room, a family changing room, a stall, or at home.

 

[Bec3b1g]

I think forcing it into the open could be quite uncomfortable for all involved. Does the transgendered REALLY want to be "discovered" by random strangers???

Making someone uncomfortable can sometimes be a good thing. Think of how many men were uncomfortable with women voting?