Tracking Cruising Restart: News and Updates

[mmouse37]

Hilton Head has just 126 rooms and a capacity of maybe 400 people. It's like comparing a local school with a university and asking the university to adopt the school's policies.

Coronado Spring was pretty full when we were there and there was no mask mandate at the pool or pool deck. I have been on 45 DCL cruises and other than deck parties or fireworks I have not been really close to people outside during the course of the day. I think requiring masks outside on deck is overreach.

MJ

 

[Becky Mouse]

Well, the CEO of NCL says thats is what it says, and I am pretty sure he gets his info from lawyers instead of just making stuff up. If the CEO's statement isnt enough, his interpretation matches the current federal mask mandate on airlines in place by guess who (the CDC).


baltimore cbslocal com/ 2021 / 04/ 22/ baltimore-county-kicked-off-southwest-airlines-flight-eating-twizzlers-no-mask /

"He showed WJZ a selfie video he made during the flight, in which he said, “I, Avi Mandel, just got kicked off a plane because I wasn’t wearing my mask in between bites while I was eating.”

After he emailed Southwest, he found out a new federal mask mandate went into effect requiring airline passengers to wear face masks at all times, including “in between bites.”

I think this is probably in place because so many people try to find ways to bend the rules. For example, when Disney World first opened, people wanted to walk around with a Starbucks drink to keep their masks down the whole time. Disney then had to make it a rule that you must be seated to eat or drink. If people didn't constantly try to break rules, the rules wouldn't be so harsh. However, I'm sure there were many people on flights who would open their trail mix and eat 1 piece every 3 minutes and say they didn't have to wear their mask because they're eating. Thanks to the rule breakers, travel companies end up making their rules very strict and specific. I don't blame the companies... I blame the people who are trying to break the rules.

 

[Becky Mouse]

If it is not sailing from the US and not porting here, then CDC has no jurisdiction.

If you're an American and not sailing from the US, then you're probably flying to another country first. There are laws that anyone flying into the United States from another country needs to have a negative COVID test before flying into the US. There are stories of many, many people getting stuck in countries like Mexico because they test positive for COVID-19 on vacation. So, just keep that in mind.

 

[Intr3pid]

Coronado Spring was pretty full when we were there and there was no mask mandate at the pool or pool deck. I have been on 45 DCL cruises and other than deck parties or fireworks I have not been really close to people outside during the course of the day. I think requiring masks outside on deck is overreach.

MJ

If you are saying the decks are outdoors, there are two issues:

1. The CDC's guidelines outdoors are very similar Masks are not required only if you are outdoors in a small vaccinated group. Since CDC is not requiring vaccinations, and the cruise ships cannot easily enforce small groups, masks requirements come into play.

2. The CDC's rules don't apply to hotels or resorts inside a state. Coronado Springs can entirely drop the mask mandate, and the CDC can't do a thing about it.

The rules are inconvenient, I agree, but you are thinking only of the pools that are open on the top decks. There are plenty of ships with solariums, half-covered pools, or indoor pools. And you could say the same thing about dining. Why enforce masks at the bars on the top deck? I think the answer is, at this point in the game (read: early), the rules will err on the side of caution. We may see them change in November.

 

[Intr3pid]

Crew vaccinations seem to be going full speed at the Florida ports:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/cruise-lines-race-vaccinate-thousands-crew-hope-mid/story?id=77492111

 

[kathi]

How much fresher Air can you get, when you are outside on a weather/pool deck on a ship??? If the ship is still, there is almost always an ocean breeze blowing and if the ship is moving, the air is changed/in motion by the second. I could understand if you could not even get 3 feet of social distance to mask, but not under any situation on a ship when out in the weather and fresh air other than that. The restaurant guidance is just silly, masking after each bite/sip. CDC really just wants cruising dead. They will make it so hard to get sailing, or for it to be enjoyable, that it will die off. Only then will they be satisfied. I can draw no other conclusions for the unreasonable rule set they are imposing on this one and only industry.

There is no requirement to keep a mask on between bites. It’s the same concept they are using at Disney World. You sit down and when your food or drink comes, you take off your mask until your meal is over. If you are sitting around at the table when you are done eating, your should put your mask back on.

 

[LambertLion]

There is no requirement to keep a mask on between bites. It’s the same concept they are using at Disney World. You sit down and when your food or drink comes, you take off your mask until your meal is over. If you are sitting around at the table when you are done eating, your should put your mask back on.

As it reads, and can be interpreted, they could allow very short amounts of time at meals with masks off. “Removal of masks for extended meal services” is a very vague statement and can be interpreted however the CDC and their inspectors want. MDR is typically a long meal. This “guidance” like many I’ve dealt with in my career working with government, is written intentionally vague and left to the inspector to decide how they will enforce and interpret it. They could very well enforce it to that extreme and there would be no recourse for cruise lines.

 

[Husker Mike]

As it reads, and can be interpreted, they could allow very short amounts of time at meals with masks off. “Removal of masks for extended meal services” is a very vague statement and can be interpreted however the CDC and their inspectors want. MDR is typically a long meal. This “guidance” like many I’ve dealt with in my career working with government, is written intentionally vague and left to the inspector to decide how they will enforce and interpret it. They could very well enforce it to that extreme and there would be no recourse for cruise lines.

Bottom line is that if you are chewing your food, you don't have to put your mask on just yet. If you are moving your utensils to get another bite, you don't have to have your mask on at that moment. If you've placed your silverware on your plate (or if you don't have a plate in front of you), you should have your mask on. Bottom line to me is that unless you are placing food or beverage into your mouth within the next minute, you should have a mask on.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

Well, the CEO of NCL says thats is what it says, and I am pretty sure he gets his info from lawyers instead of just making stuff up. If the CEO's statement isnt enough, his interpretation matches the current federal mask mandate on airlines in place by guess who (the CDC).


baltimore cbslocal com/ 2021 / 04/ 22/ baltimore-county-kicked-off-southwest-airlines-flight-eating-twizzlers-no-mask /

"He showed WJZ a selfie video he made during the flight, in which he said, “I, Avi Mandel, just got kicked off a plane because I wasn’t wearing my mask in between bites while I was eating.”

After he emailed Southwest, he found out a new federal mask mandate went into effect requiring airline passengers to wear face masks at all times, including “in between bites.”


But feel free to believe that what the CDC mandates for airlines (which is in line with the CEO of NCL's statement) somehow wont apply to cruise ships..


Edit: to further clarify my point, the CDC has the *exact same language* for airlines (brief periods of time), which as proven above, means masks between bites. I think its pretty safe to say at this point what it means, but you are welcome to ignore all of the evidence to the contrary.


cdc gov /coronavirus /2019-ncov/travelers/face-masks-public-transportation.html

People are not required to wear a mask under the following circumstances:

• while eating, drinking, or taking medication for brief periods of time;
• while communicating for brief periods of time with a person who is hearing impaired when the ability to see the mouth is essential for communication;
• if, on an aircraft, wearing oxygen masks is needed because of loss of cabin pressure or other event affecting aircraft ventilation;
• if unconscious (for reasons other than sleeping), incapacitated, unable to be awakened, or otherwise unable to remove the mask without assistance;
• when necessary to temporarily remove the mask to verify one’s identity such as during Transportation Security Administration (TSA) screening or when asked to do so by the ticket or gate agent or any law enforcement official;
• when experiencing difficulty breathing or shortness of breath or feeling winded, until able to resume normal breathing with the mask; when vomiting until vomiting ceases; or if wearing a mask interferes with necessary medical care such as supplemental oxygen administered via an oxygen mask.

We flew SWA in March and this is very much what we were told. Mask down, take a sip, mask up. They came around with a large print card around the size of a placemat, with numbered choices 1-4 for different drinks. We were told not to mask down in order to tell the FA which one we wanted; just hold up 2 fingers or whichever number drink we wanted. It was a very limted menu.
IIRC:
1. Coke
2. Diet Coke
3. 7-up
4. water (from a can)

I agree with the pp who said the rules had to become this strict due to those who constantly want to sheepishly act as if they're following them such as sipping a large bottle of water every few minutes. One could potentially have their mask off the entire flight if the bottle is large enough.

Our experience in WDW was not that strict for sit down meals. We kept the mask on while seated at our table until our drinks arrived. Dh struggled with having to wear a mask for that many hours per day (I wear all day at work so I'm used to it for 10+ hrs.) so he was more inclined to leave it down during the time period between drink and meal delivery.

 

[easy1234]

Bottom line is that if you are chewing your food, you don't have to put your mask on just yet. If you are moving your utensils to get another bite, you don't have to have your mask on at that moment. If you've placed your silverware on your plate (or if you don't have a plate in front of you), you should have your mask on. Bottom line to me is that unless you are placing food or beverage into your mouth within the next minute, you should have a mask on.

If the rules which apply to the airlines are enforced the same ways on DCL, you absolutely do have to wear a mask while chewing, which is literally why the guy I quoted was kicked off the plane.

After he emailed Southwest, he found out a new federal mask mandate went into effect requiring airline passengers to wear face masks at all times, including “in between bites.”

 

[jrapps]

If the rules which apply to the airlines are enforced the same ways on DCL, you absolutely do have to wear a mask while chewing, which is literally why the guy I quoted was kicked off the plane.

After he emailed Southwest, he found out a new federal mask mandate went into effect requiring airline passengers to wear face masks at all times, including “in between bites.”

Again remember, wearing masks in between bites is a TSA rule not a CDC one.

I for one choose to remain optimistic. Until I see language on the CDC website, or rules published by the cruise line that mention anything about wearing a mask in between bites, this conversation is meaningless. People are getting all riled up over something that is potentially nothing.

 

[easy1234]

Again remember, wearing masks in between bites is a TSA rule not a CDC one.

I for one choose to remain optimistic. Until I see language on the CDC website, or rules published by the cruise line that mention anything about wearing a mask in between bites, this conversation is meaningless. People are getting all riled up over something that is potentially nothing.

Right, and that is why I said "*if* the rules which apply to the airlines are enforced the same ways on DCL". Id like to be optimistic too, but considering they are expecting people to wear masks while socially distanced outside sitting pool side, my optimism is not at the same level as yours.

And I do not think it is nothing. I think people should be fully informed on the very real possibilities they face when cruises resume, especially when paying Disney prices.

 

[diablodancer]

Not quite sure what thread it’s best to post this in as there’s a few about DCL restarting.

I’m booked on one of the UK staycation cruises and have just been sent a survey that seemed relevant to DCL’s wider restarting plans as it included a couple of questions about what made me decide to book this cruise. Options were mostly health focused (although there were a few along the lines of ‘being one of the first to experience DCL resuming’). The health options included ‘everyone 18+ vaccinated’, ‘covid tests for all prior to sailing’, ‘limited capacity’, ‘Disney quality experience whilst balancing safety of guests and crew’ and ‘a safe way to have a summer vacation’. I’m paraphrasing as I didn’t take a screenshot but thought it provided some insight into the data Disney might be looking at for wider resumption.

 

[brentm77]

Before I post this, I feel like I need to say that I generally support tht CDC and following it's guidelines. But I do not like the notion that the CDC can do no wrong, should never be questioned, and should be the sole source for setting policy. Below is a report from the New York Times that is another reason to disagree with the CDC's guidelines for outdoor areas on cruise ships, particularly in the ones that choose to sail fully vaccinated. You could argue that it's great the CDC is being super conservative, especially on cruise ships to avoid another Diamond Princess situation. But, I think we should be better at following the science and lean towards reasonable common sense policies as we start to open up. I think doing that will facilitate better compliance in areas where the data says it will make a difference by avoiding fatigue with compliance and building trust. This is equally applicable in WDW, where masks should be allowed off in spaced outdoor areas.

Here is the pertinent part of the article:

When the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released new guidelines last month for mask wearing, it announced that “less than 10 percent” of Covid-19 transmission was occurring outdoors. Media organizations repeated the statistic, and it quickly became a standard description of the frequency of outdoor transmission.

But the number is almost certainly misleading.

It appears to be based partly on a misclassification of some Covid transmission that actually took place in enclosed spaces (as I explain below). An even bigger issue is the extreme caution of C.D.C. officials, who picked a benchmark — 10 percent — so high that nobody could reasonably dispute it.

That benchmark “seems to be a huge exaggeration,” as Dr. Muge Cevik, a virologist at the University of St. Andrews, said. In truth, the share of transmission that has occurred outdoors seems to be below 1 percent and may be below 0.1 percent, multiple epidemiologists told me. The rare outdoor transmission that has happened almost all seems to have involved crowded places or close conversation.

Saying that less than 10 percent of Covid transmission occurs outdoors is akin to saying that sharks attack fewer than 20,000 swimmers a year. (The actual worldwide number is around 150.) It’s both true and deceiving.

This isn’t just a gotcha math issue. It is an example of how the C.D.C. is struggling to communicate effectively, and leaving many people confused about what’s truly risky. C.D.C. officials have placed such a high priority on caution that many Americans are bewildered by the agency’s long list of recommendations. Zeynep Tufekci of the University of North Carolina, writing in The Atlantic, called those recommendations “simultaneously too timid and too complicated.”

They continue to treat outdoor transmission as a major risk. The C.D.C. says that unvaccinated people should wear masks in most outdoor settings and vaccinated people should wear them at “large public venues”; summer camps should require children to wear masks virtually “at all times.”

These recommendations would be more grounded in science if anywhere close to 10 percent of Covid transmission were occurring outdoors. But it is not. There is not a single documented Covid infection anywhere in the world from casual outdoor interactions, such as walking past someone on a street or eating at a nearby table.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/briefing/outdoor-covid-transmission-cdc-number.html
It's a good read if you want to see why the CDC decided to just make up a conservative number without supporting data.

 

[mcd2745]

Before I post this, I feel like I need to say that I generally support tht CDC and following it's guidelines. But I do not like the notion that the CDC can do no wrong, should never be questioned, and should be the sole source for setting policy. Below is a report from the New York Times that is another reason to disagree with the CDC's guidelines for outdoor areas on cruise ships, particularly in the ones that choose to sail fully vaccinated. You could argue that it's great the CDC is being super conservative, especially on cruise ships to avoid another Diamond Princess situation. But, I think we should be better at following the science and lean towards reasonable common sense policies as we start to open up. I think doing that will facilitate better compliance in areas where the data says it will make a difference by avoiding fatigue with compliance and building trust. This is equally applicable in WDW, where masks should be allowed off in spaced outdoor areas.

Here is the pertinent part of the article:

When the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released new guidelines last month for mask wearing, it announced that “less than 10 percent” of Covid-19 transmission was occurring outdoors. Media organizations repeated the statistic, and it quickly became a standard description of the frequency of outdoor transmission.

But the number is almost certainly misleading.

It appears to be based partly on a misclassification of some Covid transmission that actually took place in enclosed spaces (as I explain below). An even bigger issue is the extreme caution of C.D.C. officials, who picked a benchmark — 10 percent — so high that nobody could reasonably dispute it.

That benchmark “seems to be a huge exaggeration,” as Dr. Muge Cevik, a virologist at the University of St. Andrews, said. In truth, the share of transmission that has occurred outdoors seems to be below 1 percent and may be below 0.1 percent, multiple epidemiologists told me. The rare outdoor transmission that has happened almost all seems to have involved crowded places or close conversation.

Saying that less than 10 percent of Covid transmission occurs outdoors is akin to saying that sharks attack fewer than 20,000 swimmers a year. (The actual worldwide number is around 150.) It’s both true and deceiving.

This isn’t just a gotcha math issue. It is an example of how the C.D.C. is struggling to communicate effectively, and leaving many people confused about what’s truly risky. C.D.C. officials have placed such a high priority on caution that many Americans are bewildered by the agency’s long list of recommendations. Zeynep Tufekci of the University of North Carolina, writing in The Atlantic, called those recommendations “simultaneously too timid and too complicated.”

They continue to treat outdoor transmission as a major risk. The C.D.C. says that unvaccinated people should wear masks in most outdoor settings and vaccinated people should wear them at “large public venues”; summer camps should require children to wear masks virtually “at all times.”

These recommendations would be more grounded in science if anywhere close to 10 percent of Covid transmission were occurring outdoors. But it is not. There is not a single documented Covid infection anywhere in the world from casual outdoor interactions, such as walking past someone on a street or eating at a nearby table.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/briefing/outdoor-covid-transmission-cdc-number.html
It's a good read if you want to see why the CDC decided to just make up a conservative number without supporting data.

It's just another piece of evidence (there's tons of it now) that shows the decisions and guidelines coming out of the CDC are influenced more by politics than science. They have completely discredited themselves.

At the national, state, and local levels, officials are bemoaning the precipitous drop in demand for vaccines. Had the guidance from the CDC and the likes of Dr Doom & Gloom...I mean Dr Fauci...been that once you are fully vaccinated you can permanently ditch your mask, at least whenever outdoors, we wouldn't have seen the demand for vaccines drop so much. But unfortunately, other agendas seemed to be in play.

 

[brentm77]

A couple of small updates on Florida vs. CDC:

Alaska asked to delay briefing on its motion to intervene, as it wants to alter its arguments based on the CDC's newly released technical guidance. It says its ports are in a unique position not be able to comply with the new guidance.

Alaska and Texas filed a motion to appear telephonically at tomorrow's oral argument for the preliminary injunction motion. The judge denied the motion, which was a surprise to me. I have no idea what to make of the denial. It could mean the judge isn't sympathetic to Alaska and Texas joining, and its his way of saying, "if you want to play in Florida, you need to be here. Show me you are serious by showing up in my courtroom, because you aren't going to litigate this from another state." Or, it could be an indication of how he views the current state of the pandemic and people's ability to travel. I am leaning towards the latter, since he is holding a live hearing on the motion when many other courts are doing these hearings via teleconference. In any case, all the parties had agreed that they had no problem with Texas or Alaska appearing this way, so it was a bit unusual for the judge to act this way, which tells me a bit about his personality.

 

[mostlytraveling4food]

It's just another piece of evidence (there's tons of it now) that shows the decisions and guidelines coming out of the CDC are influenced more by politics than science. They have completely discredited themselves.

At the national, state, and local levels, officials are bemoaning the precipitous drop in demand for vaccines. Had the guidance from the CDC and the likes of Dr Doom & Gloom...I mean Dr Fauci...been that once you are fully vaccinated you can permanently ditch your mask, at least whenever outdoors, we wouldn't have seen the demand for vaccines drop so much. But unfortunately, other agendas seemed to be in play.

It’s like telling your kids they can go outside and play after they do their chores, and once they’re done, you say, nope, not today kiddo.

 

[kathi]

A couple of small updates on Florida vs. CDC:

Thanks for the update!! I always look forward to them.

 

[Intr3pid]

That benchmark “seems to be a huge exaggeration,” as Dr. Muge Cevik, a virologist at the University of St. Andrews, said. In truth, the share of transmission that has occurred outdoors seems to be below 1 percent and may be below 0.1 percent, multiple epidemiologists told me. The rare outdoor transmission that has happened almost all seems to have involved crowded places or close conversation.

Well, both of these settings are quite likely on cruise ships.

I agree with the article's general conclusion, but it would have been true a year ago as well - and, yet, we ended up with Diamond Princess and a half dozen other petri dishes.

 

[mevelandry]

Well, both of these settings are quite likely on cruise ships.

I agree with the article's general conclusion, but it would have been true a year ago as well - and, yet, we ended up with Diamond Princess and a half dozen other petri dishes.

I can see the cruise lines being extremely serious at monitoring max capacity and social distancing everywhere. That would involve a lot of reservations (for shows, for the pool, etc.), possibly creating extra dining rooms (example: using the buffet as an extra dining room) in order to reduce capacity in the dining rooms. Encouraging in-room dining by lifting fees, expanding the menu offer, etc.