Torture At Guantanamo Bay

[Lebjwb]

I'm with Charade in that there's no other reason to detain these people except to gain information

If they are guilty (and without a hearing we don't know that) what about imprisonment as a way of keeping them from killing more troops? That would certainly be a reason to detain them other than to gain information.

 

[ford family]

I didn't say you were un-American, I said that you didn't know what it is to be an American.

Un-American=Anti-American...clearly you are not anti-American.

Why does Un-American have to be synonymous with Anti-American?
Why can't it just mean Not American as in not American-like?

Or is it a case of - if you aren't with us you must be against us?

ford family

 

[dcentity2000]

I don't get why "un-American" is an insult. I mean, the nicest person I've ever met comes from Aussie land



Rich::

 

[Professor Mouse]

There are some honorable republicans out there. I agree with Senator McCain as to the detainees. Guantanamo captives deserve trials

Arguing that "even Adolf Eichmann got a trial," Republican Sen. John McCain said Sunday that the Bush administration must establish a system to try and perhaps free suspected terrorists from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba — even if they turn around and attack the United States.

"Some of these guys are terrible, terrible killers and the worst kind of scum of humanity," the Arizona senator said on NBC News' "Meet the Press" about the 520 men, from dozens of nations, who have been swept up around the globe in the war on terrorism.

But "they deserve to have some adjudication of their cases," McCain said, despite a "fear that, if you release them, they'll go back and fight against us. Balance that against what it's doing to our reputation throughout the world and whether it's enhancing recruiting for people to join al-Qaida and do bad things to the United States of America."

As a former POW, Senator McCain knows the importance of the Geneva Convention.

A veteran Navy pilot who spent more than five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam's "Hanoi Hilton," McCain agreed with former presidential candidate Ross Perot — who worked to improve the treatment of American POWs in Vietnam — that reports of abuses at Guantanamo could become an incentive to treat future U.S. captives brutally.

"We will not have as high a moral ground the next time we are in a conflict and Americans should become prisoners of war," McCain warned. "And it worries me; it keeps me awake at night. It really does."

If we can prove that these detainees committed a crime, then try them. Otherwise, we need to release them at some point. There is no justification in the law for holding these detainees in prison and subjecting to torture simply because we do not like their beliefs.

 

[Professor Mouse]

A fresh report of Koran abuse just surfaced. Former Guantanamo prisoners freed by Pakistan allege abuse of Koran

LAHORE, Pakistan (AFP) - Seventeen former prisoners at Guantanamo Bay who were detained on their return home to Pakistan were freed, with many alleging they had witnessed the desecration of the Koran at the US jail.

The men came back to Pakistan around nine months ago after being cleared by US authorities. They were finally released from a Pakistani jail after promising not to take part in militant activities.

"American soldiers have been committing desecration of the holy Koran at Guantanamo," Haifz Ehsan Saeed, 27, told AFP as he emerged from the central jail in the city of Lahore.

"There were various incidents. Once I saw them throw the Koran in a bucket full of urine and faeces," he said.

It was so silly for the conservatives to attack Newsweek over that report.

 

[Professor Mouse]

Why does Un-American have to be synonymous with Anti-American?
Why can't it just mean Not American as in not American-like?

Or is it a case of - if you aren't with us you must be against us?

ford family

Here is a great response to the conservatives who are accusing liberals of being disloyal the country for not supporting Bush.

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile.

To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

"Theodore Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star", 149
May 7, 1918

 

[dcentity2000]

Come on Tories! Put up a fight at least!

Funny how liberals and socialists are accused of opposing - I mean, they're the opposition. Oppositions tend to oppose, right?



Rich::

 

[Lebjwb]

Here is a great response to the conservatives who are accusing liberals of being disloyal the country for not supporting Bush.

I always like TR. Good post.



Popular Sovereignty The citizenry is collectively the sovereign of the state and holds ultimate authority over public officials and their policies.

 

[Professor Mouse]

The American Psychiatric Association has issued a strong statement about the participation of psychiatrists in the torture or interrogation techinques benig used at Guantanamo Bay. APA Statement on Psychiatric Practices at Guantanamo Bay

ARLINGTON, Va., June 27 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The American Psychiatric Association (APA) is troubled by recent reports regarding alleged violations of professional medical ethics by psychiatrists at Guantanamo Bay. APA is reviewing issues related to psychiatry and interrogation procedures and plans to develop a specific policy statement in the near future.

APA is not neutral on physician practices and clearly recommends that psychiatric physicians practice in accordance with the APA ethics guidelines, which are also in accordance with the medical code of ethics set forth in the Principles of Medical Ethics of the American Medical Association (AMA).

APA's Principles of Medical Ethics with Annotations Especially Applicable to Psychiatry states the following:

-- A physician shall be dedicated to providing competent medical care with compassion and respect for human dignity and rights.

-- A physician shall respect the law and also recognize a responsibility to seek change in those requirements which are contrary to the best interests of the patients.

-- Ethical considerations in medical practice preclude the psychiatric evaluation of any person charged with criminal acts prior to access to, or availability of, legal counsel. The only exception is the rendering of care to the person for the sole purpose of medical treatment.

-- A physician shall respect the rights of patients, colleagues, and other health professionals, and shall safeguard patient confidences and privacy within the constraints of the law.

To view The Principles of Medical Ethics with Annotations Especially Applicable to Psychiatry, visit: http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/ethics/ethics.cfm

About the American Psychiatric Association:

The American Psychiatric Association is a national medical specialty society whose nearly 36,000 physician members specialize in the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of mental illnesses including substance use disorders. Healthy Minds. Healthy Lives. Care that works to get your mind healthy again so you can lead a healthy life. Visit APA at http://www.psych.org and http://www.healthyminds.org

This is a very strong comment. There is no way that a doctor can participate in the conduct that is occuring at Guantanamo Bay and comply with their ethical duties (espicially the duty of doing no harm).

 

[DawnCt1]

There is no way that a doctor can participate in the conduct that is occuring at Guantanamo Bay and comply with their ethical duties (espicially the duty of doing no harm).

I guess being forced to listen to Christine Aguliera and Harry Potter constitutes grave torture. Frankly, I find it tortuous to be in my car in front of someone with invasive rap music. Do you think you would defend my sensibilities in that case. A Congressional group just returned form Gitmo and didn't find it so "tortuous". How do you propose we obtain needed information from detainees? Is it devisive to offer some "perks" for sharing information and will that ultimately damage their self esteem?

 

[peachgirl]

How do you propose we obtain needed information from detainees?

Good God in heaven, how many times does it have to said?

Abide by the Geneva Conventions. If you can't get information without using torture...don't get the information. It really is that simple.

We're not entitled to torture people, no matter how evil they are, no matter what information we think they might or might not have.

Is it your position that whatever we have to do in order to get them to tell us whatever it is we want them to tell us is fine and dandy? Is there any limits you would put on the interrogation techniques?

 

[DawnCt1]

Good God in heaven, how many times does it have to said?

Abide by the Geneva Conventions. If you can't get information without using torture...don't get the information. It really is that simple.

We're not entitled to torture people, no matter how evil they are, no matter what information we think they might or might not have.

Is it your position that whatever we have to do in order to get them to tell us whatever it is we want them to tell us is fine and dandy? Is there any limits you would put on the interrogation techniques?

So you think that listening to Harry Potter and Christina Aguilera is torture? I think listening to rap music and thumping bases is torture but no one is worried about me. The most useful information is being obtained by offering perks; Of course the recipient of those perks may just be incapacitated by the resultant guilt of betraying the other savages so I guess in your mind, that might be torture.

 

[Professor Mouse]

DawnCT1

Did you not use to be a nurse or something in the medical field? Could a licensed nurse, who complied with the applicable code of ethics, participate in torture of a patient? Would the licensing board of your state take any actions if a nurse administer IVs and several bags of IV fluid solely for the purpose of "breaking down" a person for interrogation purposes? Can a license nurse force unwanted medical treatment on a patient against their consent and still comply with the applicable code of ethics?

In the example given in the Time Magazine article, if a nurse gave the IV, would that nurse be in danger of losing their licensing?

Dawnct1, you have never responded to this question. I am curious as to your view of the medical ethics involved.

 

[DawnCt1]

Dawnct1, you have never responded to this question. I am curious as to your view of the medical ethics involved.

Since nurses rarely ever get an opportunity to participate in "interrogation" in the states in which they are licensed, then obviously they wouldn't be violating the "Nurse Practice Act" of their particular state. Or as they say, "What happens at Gitmo, stays at Gitmo". Would I be troubled by a detainee who peed on himself if it produced useful information that saved the lives of Americans? Not in a New York second! Babies pee on themselves every day and no one gets upset about that.

 

[Professor Mouse]

Here is another group protesting the torture at Guantanamo Bay. Center for Torture Victims speaks out against alleged torture by U.S.

The Center for Victims of Torture is alarmed by reports that the United States may be among the nations using torture during interrogations, or may be sending prisoners to other countires for the purpose of torture. The center's executive director, Doug Johnson, says some U-S officials have responded to such allegations by emphasizing the seriousness of the crimes the detainees are accused of commiting. Johnson sees that response as inadequate.

"Because fundamentally it's not about them," Johnson says. "It's not who they are that's important. It's who we are that's important. That's what we have to reach into as Americans -- into our values. And say in this policy and in this time of fear that we are mostly concerned about who we are and who we will be and how we will be seen around the world."

In letters to President Bush and to Minnesota's Congressional delegation, the center urges that evidence of U-S torture be the subject of an independent investigation along the lines of the Nine-Eleven Commission. The group also recommends that a provision in a 1992 Army Field Manual written by and for interrogators become the basis of a national standard for all U-S interrogations.

Johnson says that manual explains that torture is ineffective as a method of gaining accurate information. He says the authors go on to describe why respectful treatment of captives yields better results. "They say that when people that we fight in our wars are captured, they come from countries where torture is used. They expect to be tortured. And when they're treated humanely, it takes them by such surprise that they offer far more useful information far more quickly."

I have seen other studies that show that torture is not that effective of a method of getting information. It is difficult to trust the information obtained by torture and so such information is unreliable.

 

[Professor Mouse]

Since nurses rarely ever get an opportunity to participate in "interrogation" in the states in which they are licensed, then obviously they wouldn't be violating the "Nurse Practice Act" of their particular state. Or as they say, "What happens at Gitmo, stays at Gitmo". Would I be troubled by a detainee who peed on himself if it produced useful information that saved the lives of Americans? Not in a New York second! Babies pee on themselves every day and no one gets upset about that.

Dawnct1, you may want to check your state law. I would be surprised that any state regulatory body would turn a blind eye to a violation of that state's law simply because the violation was committed outside the borders of that state.

The APA has come down pretty hard on medical professionals participating in these interrogations and I would not be surprised to see ethics charges brought against some of the doctors participating in these interrogations by state licensing boards not withstanding the fact that the torture occured outside the jurisdiction of that state.

"What happens at Gitmo, stays at Gitmo".

The above statement may not be good law now that the US Supreme Court has held that the US courts have jurisdiction over the detainees and over conduct that occurs at Guantanamo Bay. There is a footnote in the Supreme Court decision in Rasul v. Bush that suggests that detainees may be able to sue under federal law for violations of their civil rights. To me, that means that I would not rely on the concept of

"What happens at Gitmo, stays at Gitmo".

 

[DawnCt1]

Dawnct1, you may want to check your state law. I would be surprised that any state regulatory body would turn a blind eye to a violation of that state's law simply because the violation was committed outside the borders of that state.

The APA has come down pretty hard on medical professionals participating in these interrogations and I would not be surprised to see ethics charges brought against some of the doctors participating in these interrogations by state licensing boards not withstanding the fact that the torture occured outside the jurisdiction of that state.

The above statement may not be good law now that the US Supreme Court has held that the US courts have jurisdiction over the detainees and over conduct that occurs at Guantanamo Bay. There is a footnote in the Supreme Court decision in Rasul v. Bush that suggests that detainees may be able to sue under federal law for violations of their civil rights. To me, that means that I would not rely on the concept of

Again, I do not believe that torture is taking place. In fact, these detainees are getting superior medical care that far exceeds anything that they have ever had in their miserable lives in their homeland. A nephrologist was flown in to address a detainee's kidney issues, they are eating better food than the troops guarding them and a "hot day in the Caribbean is cooler than a hot day in Iraq". I cannot understand your obsession with this issue. Are you hoping to represent them in their multi million dollar law suits against the United States?

 

[DawnCt1]

As the saying goes; "More people have been killed in Ted Kennedy's Oldsmobile than have been killed at Gitmo".

 

[Professor Mouse]

The Pentagaon issued a press release in response to the New York Times and New England Journal of Medicine articles posted on this thread basically denying that any doctors have participated in these interrogations. Pentagon reaffirms rules for doctors handling terror suspects

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The Pentagon reaffirmed rules for medical personnel treating detainees, after a report said military doctors helped in the interrogations of prisoners at the "war on terror" prison at the US naval base in Guantanamo, Cuba.

The Defense Department also reiterated guidelines on the protection of detainees' medical information, which a medical journal said were systematically seen by interrogators.

In a public policy memorandum dated June 3, which the Defense Department made public Monday, the Pentagon stated that it is against its policy for health care personnel to "apply their knowledge and skills in order to assist in the interrogation of detainees in a manner that is not in accordance with applicable law."

The New York Times, citing former interrogators, reported Friday that US military doctors advised interrogators on how to increase stress levels and apply psychological pressure on detainees at Guantanamo.

The Times' account followed a report in the July 7 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine indicating that interrogators at Guantanamo were systematically accessing the medical records of prisoners.

"Although detainees do not have an absolute right of confidentiality with respect to information they share with medical care providers, the general guidance is to maintain such information confidentially, except for approved and documented specific reasons," the Pentagon said in a statement.

"This is the same standard that would apply in US federal prisons," it said.

"Any detainee related information provided by healthcare personnel for reasons other than treatment must be for a specific purpose, documented and approved by a medical commander before it is released," said William Winkenwerder, assistant secretary of defense for health affairs.

He added: "To the best of my knowledge we have no credible evidence that a military physician participated in detainee abuse."

"We expect military medical personnel, and all other service members, to abide by policies that require detainees be treated humanely and to report any suspected detainee mistreatment," Winkenwerder said in the statement.

The controversy over interrogation techniques used at Guantanamo and other US military prisons, especially those housing terrorist suspects, has grown since the US-led war in Iraq

Hopefully the NYT and the NEJM articles are wrong and no doctor or medical personal have participated in these interrogations. Again, it is pretty clear that under medical ethical standards, it would be wrong for a medical professional to participate in the conduct described in these articles.

Hopefully, the UN will be allowed to invesigate what is going on at Guantanamo Bay. Given the fact that torture has been admitted and the Red Cross has leaked its determination that conduct tantamount to torture is taking place, then we need to let the UN to clear the air.

 

[DawnCt1]

Club Gitmo. www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/eibessential/illustrating_absurdity/clubgitmo.guest.html