Too old for jail?

[va32h]

My FIL passed away 2 weeks ago. He basically lived the last 3 years of his life in his own prison, having fallen asleep at the wheel after driving for 14 hours, resulting in an accident that claimed the life of his beloved wife of over 50 years.

I'm glad no one thought he deserved to be locked away with the key thrown away......and I pray that he is finally at peace. An accident is just that, an accident.

I'm sorry about your FIL's passing, and at the tragic death of your MIL as well.

But if that same car accident had killed 9 other people besides your MIL, and then declared that it was their own fault for not getting out of the way, would you expect the families of those victims to be as sympathetic to the situation as your family was?

Just because something happens by accident does not make people unaccountable for the result.

In the case of the man who plowed into the market - the police and prosecutor's obviously felt there was sufficient evidence that it was not "just" an accident, but negligence.

In your FIL's case - the police made a different determination. That strikes me as two very different situations.

I agree that home confinement is more practical than imprisonment, and would seem to fit the bill of appropriate punishment tempered with an acknowledgement of the age and condition of the offender.

 

[noodleknitter]

You said he had been driving for over 14 hours. That isn't an accident. It's being negligent. It has nothing to do with being elderly.

14 hours is a piece of cake. It would be no different from doing any other activity for 14 hours. A normal span to be awake and active. Do you drive in the evenings? That too would be negligence per your evaluation.

 

[MushyMushy]

14 hours is a piece of cake. It would be no different from doing any other activity for 14 hours. A normal span to be awake and active. Do you drive in the evenings? That too would be negligence per your evaluation.

IMO, driving is too repetitive to do for prolonged periods of time. It's almost hypnotic if you're on a highway. I'd say the same thing about any repetitive activity, like working in a factory, sitting at a computer, reading a book, etc.

According to my DH, even truck drivers are limited to the hours they can spend driving -- something like 10 on the road and 12 working altogether.

 

[froglady]

I will quote what I told my mother when I persuaded her to stop driving.

"If you had the good judgement to stop driving on your own, you wouldn't need to stop driving."

What I meant was, most people aren't objective enough to make that decision until it's forced upon them. The fact that they are unable to recognize their limitations is what makes them dangerous in the first place. They truly believe that their driving is as good as always! This lack of judgement is what causes many accidents.

I've known of many instances where an accident is the first wake up call that it's time to hang up the keys. My "wake up call" (besides her limited mobility) was when my mother got lost walking in her neighborhood! Had she been driving, I have no idea where she would have ended up, or if she would have arrived home safely.

Again, it's very easy to say "I'll stop driving when it's time" but very difficult to recognize and accept when the time comes. It's also difficult for a family to arrange transportation. If I were not a SAHM there is no way I could have kept DM independent as long as I did. Even now, I have to drive her to all of her medical appointments if I want to maintain her health at staus quo. She would agree to ANYTHING, and has no short term memory.

 

[Pin Wizard]

Nope, he's no different than anyone else.

States should really crack down on age limits AND more frequent testing once you hit a certain age. Geez...FL will give anyone a license. It's bad down there. And anyone at any age really needs to voluntarily throw in the towel when they're unable to drive safely. You would think that giving up a drivers' license was like having an arm cut off. They seem to think their "independence" rests completely in that thing.

 

[JunieJay]

I will quote what I told my mother when I persuaded her to stop driving.

"If you had the good judgement to stop driving on your own, you wouldn't need to stop driving."

What I meant was, most people aren't objective enough to make that decision until it's forced upon them. The fact that they are unable to recognize their limitations is what makes them dangerous in the first place. They truly believe that their driving is as good as always! This lack of judgement is what causes many accidents.

I've known of many instances where an accident is the first wake up call that it's time to hang up the keys. My "wake up call" (besides her limited mobility) was when my mother got lost walking in her neighborhood! Had she been driving, I have no idea where she would have ended up, or if she would have arrived home safely.

Again, it's very easy to say "I'll stop driving when it's time" but very difficult to recognize and accept when the time comes. It's also difficult for a family to arrange transportation. If I were not a SAHM there is no way I could have kept DM independent as long as I did. Even now, I have to drive her to all of her medical appointments if I want to maintain her health at staus quo. She would agree to ANYTHING, and has no short term memory.

Well said. I don't think people here are getting this very simple point....its easier to condemn, I guess.

 

[froglady]

You would think that giving up a drivers' license was like having an arm cut off. They seem to think their "independence" rests completely in that thing.

In areas without an infrastructure for transporting seniors, this is true. Not only does their independence depend on it, but sometimes their health and life.

For example. A poor nondriving senior living in an area with no senior transportation and no family at his/her beck and call gets up feeling sick. He/she calls his/her doctor who tells him to come in to the office.

How? He doesn't have cash for a cab. There is no public transportation. He either has no family close by, or they are at work and can't drop everything to transport him. So he has to wait until he has a way of getting to the office, or his condition deteriorates to the point that 911 is called and he's transported via rescue.

So giving up his license is not just eliminating his independence in driving, but might require his moving to have access to transportation. That involves moving in with family, to a senior center (if one is even available) assited living facility, or nursing home. All of them involve giving up autonomy to a certain extent, the last being limiting your living space to one room (if you have the finances) or 1/2 of a room with a small closet and dresser. Even the senior center would require downsizing to one or two rooms, unless you had above average financial resources.

So yes, for someone who has spent the last 40-60 years living as an autonomous person who was free to come and go as he pleased, it is akin to cutting off an arm.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't have to be done, but it isn't as easy as it sounds, and I would love to be a fly on the wall to see the reaction when the young people who say "I'll just stop driving" reach a time when someone tells them they need to hang up their keys.

 

[lowie]

That doesn't mean that it doesn't have to be done, but it isn't as easy as it sounds, and I would love to be a fly on the wall to see the reaction when the young people who say "I'll just stop driving" reach a time when someone tells them they need to hang up their keys.

my (now) dh and i were dating for about 4 months when i told him that he needed to stop driving. he has a retinal condition and his sight was getting worse all the time. i was the first person who actually told him to his face that he was a danger to himself and others. even his parents were so far in denial that they felt too bad to say something.

he was on the verge of killing someone and once pointed out to him, was very willing to give up his license. i think in his own head he knew he needed to, but admitting it to himself was HARD! in fact, he also sold his car... and bought my engagement ring with the money

 

[froglady]

my (now) dh and i were dating for about 4 months when i told him that he needed to stop driving. he has a retinal condition and his sight was getting worse all the time. i was the first person who actually told him to his face that he was a danger to himself and others. even his parents were so far in denial that they felt too bad to say something.

he was on the verge of killing someone and once pointed out to him, was very willing to give up his license. i think in his own head he knew he needed to, but admitting it to himself was HARD! in fact, he also sold his car... and bought my engagement ring with the money

But it appears that he had a ready, willing, and able driver. Would he have given up as easily if you weren't in the picture? Again, my mother was very compliant, but ONLY because she was already in a senior apartment which provided transportation to doctors, grocery stores, church, and the mall, on a limited basis, plus I moved her within 2 miles of my home so I could be close by. It was still hard for her, but not as hard as it would have been had she been living in different circumstances.

 

[JunieJay]

The reason for my FIL's long drive was to get to a medical appointment he had made with a physician specializing in the care he needed. He made these plans without consulting any of his children, I don't think it ever occurred to him that he was not fit to make such a long trip at his age. He paid a pretty dear price to find out. This was a man who the day before this tragic accident, was on the roof of his home making repairs. He never knew his limitations until it was too late.

 

[justhat]

In areas without an infrastructure for transporting seniors, this is true. Not only does their independence depend on it, but sometimes their health and life.

For example. A poor nondriving senior living in an area with no senior transportation and no family at his/her beck and call gets up feeling sick. He/she calls his/her doctor who tells him to come in to the office.

How? He doesn't have cash for a cab. There is no public transportation. He either has no family close by, or they are at work and can't drop everything to transport him. So he has to wait until he has a way of getting to the office, or his condition deteriorates to the point that 911 is called and he's transported via rescue.

So giving up his license is not just eliminating his independence in driving, but might require his moving to have access to transportation. That involves moving in with family, to a senior center (if one is even available) assited living facility, or nursing home. All of them involve giving up autonomy to a certain extent, the last being limiting your living space to one room (if you have the finances) or 1/2 of a room with a small closet and dresser. Even the senior center would require downsizing to one or two rooms, unless you had above average financial resources.

So yes, for someone who has spent the last 40-60 years living as an autonomous person who was free to come and go as he pleased, it is akin to cutting off an arm.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't have to be done, but it isn't as easy as it sounds, and I would love to be a fly on the wall to see the reaction when the young people who say "I'll just stop driving" reach a time when someone tells them they need to hang up their keys.

Excellent post. I'm 26 and I know now that when I reach an age where I shouldn't be driving anymore that it is quite possible that I will be in denial of that fact and refuse to hand over my keys. Sure, it's easy for me to think now that it won't happen and I'll be compliant, but unfortunately things may not work out like that.

Forget driving for a second and think of all the other ways that some seniors are "stubborn". Medicine non-compliant stands out in my mind. Not just forgetting to take meds, but feeling as though they're totally fine without them, they don't need that stuff, etc.

Losing your independence is much harder than a lot of people think too. Right now I'm totally self-sufficient, but my 2 month old is far from it. He needs me for everything. Imagining myself being back in his position, but with the knowledge I have now about how nice it is to do things for yourself, would be very hard.

And I think there's a bigger picture too, which does make it seem more like cutting off an arm. Admitting that you can't drive is to admit that your body is failing. That fact makes death seem much closer, something I'm betting most people are not looking forward to. By maintaining that they can still drive, it keeps their youth in their mind, which is an important thing as you start reaching or exceeding the life expectancy.

So no, that does not mean that I think the elderly, or any poor drivers for that matter, should get to drive freely. I'm just giving some thought to the difficulty involved in giving up such a priviledge.

 

[plutolovr]

I say let him sit in jail and don't forget the soap-on-a-rope!

I remember hearing about this when it all happened, how awful it was. I also have no tolerance for elderly drivers who shouldn't be driving anymore. That being said, I believe testing needs to be done on everyone. Perhaps every 5 years or so until you reach a certain age, and then more frequently the older you get. People's physical conditions change all the time. The very healthy 20yo. one year could be on medications, have eyesight problems, etc. the next year. I wear glasses now and on my license it doesn't stipulate that.

I'm in my 40s now and I HATE to drive. I will have no problems giving up my license when I'm older. I keep telling everyone I'm going to hire myself some nice looking young guy to drive me around.

Did anyone see the Southpark episode about the elderly drivers? It was hilarious!!! It really hit the nail on the head.

 

[Disney Doll]

Why should I be ashamed of myself? I didn't kill anyone. Several of my students were at that stop and one of the ones killed was in my class. All because he was in too much of a hurry to drive safely.

You should be ashamed of yourself because you said something extraordinarily mean to someone who shared that she lost two people she loved that day and yet you continue to harp on it.

Her father-in-law didn't kill your student. Neither did she. I feel badly for you that you lost a student, but think of someone else's feelings besides your own. You're not feeling sorry for JunieJay for losing 2 people that she loved, so why should anyone feel sorry for you for losing one of your students? You think you deserve more sympathy than she??? Your responses say a lot about you, and none of it is too good...not that I assume you care.

My goodness, I am glad you are not teaching any children I know...at least I hope you're not. You don't teach in CT, do you?

I think I have to be done with this thread. I don't like the crassness or the rudeness, and since I DIS for enjoyment, this thread doesn't fit the bill.

 

[Pin Wizard]

That doesn't mean that it doesn't have to be done, but it isn't as easy as it sounds, and I would love to be a fly on the wall to see the reaction when the young people who say "I'll just stop driving" reach a time when someone tells them they need to hang up their keys.

True, but the community really needs to step up to the plate. There are monies available to them for this. In FL my first job was at a community senior center. I worked on the proposals along with my boss for the grants for this. The center has vans and buses that picked up seniors for doc appts, food shopping, etc. and took them back home.

My dad stopped driving on his own at the age of 59 or 60 when he had cancer and knew he couldn't be a responsible driver any longer. It can be done.

 

[teacherforhi]

You should be ashamed of yourself because you said something extraordinarily mean to someone who shared that she lost two people she loved that day and yet you continue to harp on it.

Her father-in-law didn't kill your student. Neither did she. I feel badly for you that you lost a student, but think of someone else's feelings besides your own. You're not feeling sorry for JunieJay for losing 2 people that she loved, so why should anyone feel sorry for you for losing one of your students? You think you deserve more sympathy than she??? Your responses say a lot about you, and none of it is too good...not that I assume you care.

My goodness, I am glad you are not teaching any children I know...at least I hope you're not. You don't teach in CT, do you?

I think I have to be done with this thread. I don't like the crassness or the rudeness, and since I DIS for enjoyment, this thread doesn't fit the bill.

Ummm...I made one statement that I didn't feel that falling asleep at the wheel qualified as an accident. That's hardly harping. I only responded when I was told that I should feel ashamed of myself. I don't feel ashamed. If only one person thinks about pulling over to the side of the road when they're too tired to go on, I may have saved a life and no one will have to go through what my community did.

 

[plutolovr]

Ummm...I made one statement that I didn't feel that falling asleep at the wheel qualified as an accident. That's hardly harping. I only responded when I was told that I should feel ashamed of myself. I don't feel ashamed. If only one person thinks about pulling over to the side of the road when they're too tired to go on, I may have saved a life and no one will have to go through what my community did.

As far as falling asleep at the wheel being an accident, if I'm not mistaken I believe some states have passed laws that being sleepy while driving is just as punishable as driving while drunk. Here in NJ people have been convicted of such an act.

 

[hellokitty86]

I have some very strong opinions about elderly drivers.

Me too. He deserves to go to jail and take the responsibility of killing numerous people, if he feels he can take on driving.

 

[poohandwendy]

I am not sure that he should be a prison faciliy, but he definitely needs to be in some sort of locked facility. Mainly because I feel the judicial system has a responsibility to protect the public. If he isn't kept from access to cars, with this history, I feel the judicial system would be responsible if something else happened.

I do not think that everyone should be required to repeat drivers tests every 4 years, that isn't practical. There just is not enough time in a year to retest a quarter of the licensed drivers. (not that I don't think it would be beneficial, just logistically impossible)

But, I do think that once you are considered a senior citizen and can collect SS benefits, there should be regular retesting for all senior drivers. Yes, it would be a hassle, but these rules are for the safety of all.

 

[mushumadness]

he should do the time for what he did

people know when they shouldnt be driving and not knowing where the stop peddle is, is the biggest sign going