Tom Sawyer's Island, Disneyland - soon no more?

[mitros]

<rant>
Because as well all know, no child likes to run around, climb rocks, crawl through caves or play on pontoon bridges.

Excitement in life only comes through brand-building experiences with proper product placement. Why bother letting your child have imagination when their lives can all be bundled up into a neat little happy meal format?

Plus you'll spare them the trauma of being exposed to something from a literature! I can see where all parents want to avoid those deeply embarrassing questions like “who was Tom Sawyer” and “can you read me a Mark Twain story”! What would the other parents say at soccer practice!?!?

Now plop you addled child in front of the DVD player while you rush off to buy!

Consume people! Consume!

<end rant>

If Disneyland and Walt Disney World are going to continue to grow and survive, they need to be something more than commericals for other Disney products. No one is going to spend five thousand dollars on a vacation to watch commericals.

Imagine if Disney Studios only made movies that "starred" Mickey Mouse. They wouldn't be around long no matter how many plush they sold.

As usual, well said, AV!

 

[raidermatt]

As far I can tell, the island is currently "dumbed down".

Why is that? Is it because kids in the 60's loved Mark Twain, or is it perhaps because Disney has put very little effort into the area, except for removing/closing anything that might get them sued?

Its not that its necessarily bad to re-theme the place. Its just that re-theming things to sell more DVDs isn't the best way to develop a theme park.

 

[DancingBear]

...and according to Al Lutz, this plan was initiated by marketing and merchandising, and the Imagineers are being brought in at the back end. Bad sign.

 

[MJMcBride]

Why is that? Is it because kids in the 60's loved Mark Twain, or is it perhaps because Disney has put very little effort into the area, except for removing/closing anything that might get them sued?

Its not that its necessarily bad to re-theme the place. Its just that re-theming things to sell more DVDs isn't the best way to develop a theme park.

I was just quoting AV. Kids in the 50s and 60s love Mark Twain, now they love Pirates. To me, this whole attraction was specifically designed for young ones. Maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but to me, there was little interest for the over 12 crowd as it is. Who knows? Maybe it will be more interesting for the older crowd.

 

[Another Voice]

Its not like they taking away something great.

If, of course, if you assume your tiny narrow view is the only thing that matters.

Out here at Disneyland, Tom Sawyer is a unique and interesting environment. We have millions and millions of people squeezed on our little strip of desert between the mountains and the ocean. Our rivers are encased in concrete so they don’t flood and kill us. We’re surrounded by wonderful forests which, sadly, have a tendency to burst into flame every year. We love it, it's certainly beautiful - but it's not like every other part of the country.

A vast wilderness area, of dirt and trees, with a large river flowing along side, with bushes and caves – that’s something children around here can only dream of. A raft trip down a river is something out of a book. Tom Sawyer Island is great because in the middle of this urban wasteland you can feel you’re in the wilderness and understand what it must have felt like a hundred years ago. A lot of us - yes, even us adults - like to get a whiff of that experience every now and then.

And before you hurl the insults – we get plenty of tourist rubes from your area that get all agga over palm trees, orange groves and sunshine. The local police department has standing orders to deport anyone from New Jersey who says “it doesn’t feel like it’s Christmas when it’s 80 degrees outside”. None of you can drive worth a damn and listening to you guys try to pronounce La Canada or Mission Viejo can be down right funny.

Every area has a place that unique, different and strange to them.

You don’t “get” Tom Sawyer Island, fine. But there are lots of people who do. It would be a shame to loose that just to scrounge a few more bucks from the short attention span crowd.

 

[mitros]

If, of course, if you assume your tiny narrow view is the only thing that matters.

Out here at Disneyland, Tom Sawyer is a unique and interesting environment. We have millions and millions of people squeezed on our little strip of desert between the mountains and the ocean. Our rivers are encased in concrete so they don’t flood and kill us. We’re surrounded by wonderful forests which, sadly, have a tendency to burst into flame every year. We love it, it's certainly beautiful - but it's not like every other part of the country.

A vast wilderness area, of dirt and trees, with a large river flowing along side, with bushes and caves – that’s something children around here can only dream of. A raft trip down a river is something out of a book. Tom Sawyer Island is great because in the middle of this urban wasteland you can feel you’re in the wilderness and understand what it must have felt like a hundred years ago. A lot of us - yes, even us adults - like to get a whiff of that experience every now and then.

And before you hurl the insults – we get plenty of tourist rubes from your area that get all agga over palm trees, orange groves and sunshine. The local police department has standing orders to deport anyone from New Jersey who says “it doesn’t feel like it’s Christmas when it’s 80 degrees outside”. None of you can drive worth a damn and listening to you guys try to pronounce La Canada or Mission Viejo can be down right funny.

Every area has a place that unique, different and strange to them.

You don’t “get” Tom Sawyer Island, fine. But there are lots of people who do. It would be a shame to loose that just to scrounge a few more bucks from the short attention span crowd.

Well said, yet again, AV........

 

[Smooshdog]

Of all the things at Disney I never thought I would be defending TSI, but I "get" TSI and just want to say I like it as is, whats wrong with that?

I like what AV had to say. So that's it from me on this topic.

 

[MJMcBride]

If, of course, if you assume your tiny narrow view is the only thing that matters.

Out here at Disneyland, Tom Sawyer is a unique and interesting environment. We have millions and millions of people squeezed on our little strip of desert between the mountains and the ocean. Our rivers are encased in concrete so they don’t flood and kill us. We’re surrounded by wonderful forests which, sadly, have a tendency to burst into flame every year. We love it, it's certainly beautiful - but it's not like every other part of the country.

A vast wilderness area, of dirt and trees, with a large river flowing along side, with bushes and caves – that’s something children around here can only dream of. A raft trip down a river is something out of a book. Tom Sawyer Island is great because in the middle of this urban wasteland you can feel you’re in the wilderness and understand what it must have felt like a hundred years ago. A lot of us - yes, even us adults - like to get a whiff of that experience every now and then.

And before you hurl the insults – we get plenty of tourist rubes from your area that get all agga over palm trees, orange groves and sunshine. The local police department has standing orders to deport anyone from New Jersey who says “it doesn’t feel like it’s Christmas when it’s 80 degrees outside”. None of you can drive worth a damn and listening to you guys try to pronounce La Canada or Mission Viejo can be down right funny.

Every area has a place that unique, different and strange to them.

You don’t “get” Tom Sawyer Island, fine. But there are lots of people who do. It would be a shame to loose that just to scrounge a few more bucks from the short attention span crowd.

I must admit AV, you are funny. I must tell you, you'll have to deport me then. Because its not Christmas if its 80 degrees. And you can't have an Xmas beach party. Sorry, thats not Christmas.

I guess I don't get TSI. It really doesn't interest me. In fact, at WDW, I skip it. But you must admit that this particular area is geared to the younger crowd. Most adults, I think, go there to let their kids let off some steam. I could be wrong. Its obviously my opinion. I'm allowed that right?

 

[debbi801]

In the schools where they aren't banned because some extreme parent is trying to "forget" history (Song of the South, anyone?) they are still assigned and read. When will they put Davy Jones in the Haunted Mansion as #1000? Why not just redo the whole freakin' Square to be themed to one franchise? Christ. When Pirates isn't hip to people anymore or when Depp gets caught in some pedophile/drug/murder/etc. scandal, the Disney execs are going to be scrambling... Bad idea, folks. Bad idea.

My 8th grader had to read Tom Sawyer over the summer for his assigned summer reading project.

 

[dbm20th]

I find it strange that someone who doesn't even state where he is from finds it ok to hurl generalized insults towards inhabitants of an entire state. AV, I normally don't agree with you, but I do respect your opinion. This I don't respect. And MJ, it IS Xmas in 80 degrees if you are from Florida...duh

Now, onto TSI. MJ, you had to know the DF's would be crying at the very thought of changing yet another beloved old stand-buy being thrown out there. TSI is a great place for kids. But, perhaps a Pirate place would be better. It would no doubt be more appreciated by the younger generation, if we speak only in genral theme terms. I agree that a literary knowlegde is a good thing. Losing TSI means losing Mark Twain. Yet, more Pirates does essentially mean mre Walt Disney. Hard to say. I guess my point is this, until I see exactly what a new Pirates Island would look like, I really can't say how they compare. I don't know how anyone can.

Also, a nice pirate ship at dock in Liberty Square certainly is NOT contrasting themeing. In fact a square-rigged ship would be pretty darn cool. The Peal might look out of place, but the Dauntless would be pretty impressive.

 

[raidermatt]

But you must admit that this particular area is geared to the younger crowd.

One of the consequences of Disney's current management strategies is that many things have become more segmented. We need something for the teens here. Something for the kids there. There are fewer and fewer efforts being made to create things that appeal to multiple age groups.

Viewing TSI as a place for kids to blow off steam is falling into that same trap. Many of the things on TSI appeal to other age groups... the bridges, the relative serenity, the views, the caves. Today, if Disney were to build TSI, we'd get something like Pooh's Playground and a roller coaster, and that would be called family entertainment because its got something for everybody.

If it doesn't appeal to YOU, that's a personal preference, and that's fine. But hopefully you can see the difference between TSI as it was before neglect and fear of lawsuits set in, and a place like Pooh's playground.

Now, again, I'm not dead set against the changes in concept. I just don't like the reason its happening and the process behind it. The more flawed the process, the more often negative results will occur.

 

[raidermatt]

Because its not Christmas if its 80 degrees.

Good thing Jesus didn't live somewhere like that.

MJ, you had to know the DF's would be crying at the very thought of changing yet another beloved old stand-buy being thrown out there.

Talk about generalizations.

I guess my point is this, until I see exactly what a new Pirates Island would look like, I really can't say how they compare. I don't know how anyone can.

Would you not agree that when corporate marketing dictates changes like this, it is at least fair to be critical of that process?

 

[MJMcBride]

If it doesn't appeal to YOU, that's a personal preference, and that's fine. But hopefully you can see the difference between TSI as it was before neglect and fear of lawsuits set in, and a place like Pooh's playground.

I agree. But you must admit that while some older visitors liked the serenity of the place. It was designed for younger children, not even teens. It is one of the more segmented attractions in the park, I would think.

Besides, I like those little playgrounds. Well, my kids do anyway.

And I didn't know Jesus celebrated Christmas. What do you think Santa brought him?

 

[raidermatt]

And I didn't know Jesus celebrated Christmas. What do you think Santa brought him?

Not sure how he celebrated his birthday, which wasn't even in December as I understand it. I'm guessing a nice quiet meal with family and friends. Wasn't the type for extravagance, again, as I understand it.

Santa was still trying to learn how to put Lego sets together.

But you must admit that while some older visitors liked the serenity of the place. It was designed for younger children, not even teens. It is one of the more segmented attractions in the park, I would think.

Its designed for younger children in much the same way as the dark rides in FL are designed for younger children. Some will look at it and say "kid's stuff", just as some look at the entire park that way.

Look, my kids love playgrounds too. They love playing in them at DL, and they love the ones at the local parks and schools.

That doesn't mean Disney isn't taking the cheap and lazy way out by putting those things in instead of trying to build attractions that actually appeal to entire families. Think about what it costs to get into these parks. Are you saying putting in playgrounds that are just better decorated versions of what's at the local schools is going to get people to spend the dough it takes to come to DLR/WDW?

TSI is not just a playground like these newer places. Lack of updating, maintenance and fear of lawsuits has taken chunks out of it, and I'm not saying it should sit as is. And once again, I'm not even saying it can't be completely changed.

Its just being done for the wrong reasons, and that is just not as likely to have a great result as something done for the right reasons.

 

[Another Voice]

This I don't respect.

I had thought by now that most people had figured out “where I’m from”. When I was writing that Tom Sawyer Island’s riverfront and wilderness was a unique environment for us native Southern Californians, I knew the first thing that would be thrown back are the “good natured” ribs that always get thrown at us. I just wanted to remind everyone, in a lighthearted way, that while trees and water are foreign to us weird freak California weirdos – it’s no different than people in New Jersey finding orange groves, palm trees, and beach volleyball games on Christmas day “different”. A lot of people spend huge amounts of money to experience what we get everyday out here. Tom Sawyer’s Island is our way of seeing what they get to routinely experience.

But we do draw the line at snow. That you can keep all to yourselves.

Also, a nice pirate ship at dock in Liberty Square certainly is NOT contrasting themeing.

As we see every weekend when the Columbia pulls up to our Fronteirland Landing. But it doesn’t need a trendy and tacky “pirate theme” to look cool. That’s the biggest problem with the whole makeover concept – it’s unnecessary. There’s nothing wrong with what we have know (and an awful lot that’s right). Swishing up the place with Pirate trinkets is a tacky money grab – it looks like it, it feels like it, and people are going to resent it.

Look how popular ‘Stitch’ is these days after five years of having him crammed down our throats.

I guess I don't get TSI. It really doesn't interest me.

And that’s perfectly fine.

There are two ways of attracting a big audience – you can find the one thing that everyone likes (the “blockbuster” mentality) or you offer lots of things some that people will always be able to find something they like (the “showcase” menality). Disneyland was successful, I think, because it offered a wide variety of experience – don’t care for fairy tales, try the Old West. Not into horse – how about riding a rocket ship?

Hollywood is currently in the grip of blockbuster fever. When it works, you literally can make a billion dollars. But there are problems. Something that popular doesn’t tend to age well – how many people care to watch Titianic these days? My guess is that in five years most people will look at Pirates in the same way – last year’s fad.

Even harder than maintaining a hit is finding one in the first place. This summer alone we had one big movie. Pirates – but look at the billion dollars spent on the other flicks that had the same goal: Superman Returns, Miami Vice, X-Men, Poseidon,…the list is endless.

The more Disney chases after the one thing for everyone, the worse the parks are going to get. There’s a greater chance of missing (how about that Pearl Harbor exhibit at Disney/MGM Studios?) and the faster things will grow stale.

Five years from now Pirate Island is going to be as popular as Who Wants to Be A Millionare – Play It!.

 

[MJMcBride]

Five years from now Pirate Island is going to be as popular as Who Wants to Be A Millionare – Play It!.

Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the Pirate phenoma which has laready lasted longer than the Millionaire phenom.

 

[MJMcBride]

Its designed for younger children in much the same way as the dark rides in FL are designed for younger children. Some will look at it and say "kid's stuff", just as some look at the entire park that way.

I have to disagree with you on this point. To me, the dark rides were built more for "everyone". TSI, again to me, is an overgrown (an interesting) playground. Which again is basically for kids.

 

[Keyser]

Out here at Disneyland, Tom Sawyer is a unique and interesting environment. We have millions and millions of people squeezed on our little strip of desert between the mountains and the ocean. Our rivers are encased in concrete so they don’t flood and kill us. We’re surrounded by wonderful forests which, sadly, have a tendency to burst into flame every year. We love it, it's certainly beautiful - but it's not like every other part of the country.

A vast wilderness area, of dirt and trees, with a large river flowing along side, with bushes and caves – that’s something children around here can only dream of. A raft trip down a river is something out of a book. Tom Sawyer Island is great because in the middle of this urban wasteland you can feel you’re in the wilderness and understand what it must have felt like a hundred years ago. A lot of us - yes, even us adults - like to get a whiff of that experience every now and then.

There are a couple of problems I have with this justification. First, Disneyland ought to be (and I think you'd agree) more than just an oasis for those who live in Southern California - justifying an attraction just because it appeals to locals is pretty weak, and by that token, I'd think that you'd be OK with replacing TSI at WDW. Second, this type of justification is exactly the opposite of what you've argued for other rides. In the past, you've talked about attractions being the types of things that people dream about doing but can't. You've criticized Kilimanjaro Safari since it's possible to go on a real Safari, and Mission:Space because it simulates a training mission rather than a real trip to Mars. If anything, TSI is far more "commonplace" - it's awfully easy to find a "vast wilderness area, of dirt and trees, with a large river flowing alongside, with bushes and caves..." (OK, maybe caves are a little tougher) in many parts of the U.S. - it's a long way from the type of attraction that lets people experience things they could only dream about. Visiting a pirate island, on the other hand, would be far more in this line...

With that said, I kind of like TSI. My one time to visit Disneyland (in 1989, when I was actually a teenager - not a little kid), I found the park as a whole to be a pretty miserable place, with long lines (I waited 2.5 hours for Star Tours, I remember, with it having recently opened) and cramped conditions. TSI was a nice (and fun even for a teenager) break from the rest of the park itself! I came away from that visit with a pretty negative impression of the park as a whole, but a very positive impression of TSI - I'd hate to think of losing TSI there, particularly.

As others have said, anything driven first by marketing is probably a bad idea, anyway, for lots of reasons. I don't think the idea of switching to a pirate theme is necessarily bad, but I also have extreme reservations about how it would actually come off...

 

[Keyser]

Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the Pirate phenoma which has laready lasted longer than the Millionaire phenom.

Considering "pirates" were a popular idea even during Twain's time (he once even said he wanted to be a pirate), the pirate pheomenon has also lasted longer than the Tom Sawyer phenomenon...

 

[Another Voice]

First, Disneyland ought to be (and I think you'd agree) more than just an oasis for those who live in Southern California.

More than two-thirds of Disneyland’s guests come from Southern California. Disneyland has always been considered “our” park and a central piece of SoCal’s identity. Going to Disneyland around here is almost a constitutional right and even closer to a religious obligation. Sure, we get visitors from all over the world, but no one sees the place as a tourist attraction. It’s woven into the fabric of life out here in way that’s completely different than WDW and Orlando.

And Disney has learned a bitter and extremely painful lesson too with the whole “Resort” thing. Disregard our wishes and desires, pander to the tourist crowd and the company will fail - from ‘Light Magic’ to California Adventure. Locals are the core audience for Disneyland.

And so too with Tom Sawyer’s Island. We don’t have the kind of wilderness areas that you find so common. But we all grow up with stories of the “old west” out here – everyone in school learns about the missions and the great ranches. We see pictures of the old pueblo and of wagon trains. Mark Twain did a lot of his early writing here in California. Our state is drenched in the mythology of the gold rush. We are part of the Old West, but we don’t have any of it around. All we have is the occasional old farm house, some old pictures and a lot of stories. Tom Sawyer’s Island is a connection to those stories. It makes us feel, for a couple of moments, what things were like before the strip malls and freeways showed up.

I’m sure a Pirates of the Caribbean overlay will, at first, be very popular (and it won’t be a generic “pirate” theme, it will be a tie-in to the movie). Southern Californians are more driven by fads than just about anyone else. And ‘pirates’ are just that – a fad. The movies will quickly fade from memory and so too will the interest (remember the big plans for the big ‘Titanic’ hotel in Vegas, and how’s that Titanic museum in Orlando doing?). Besides the marketing hype, there’s no lasting connection with the people here.