Today show story on Timeshares

islandtimect

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The Today show just did a piece on how folks who own older time shares are having to give them away for free or sell for very little. This includes Orlando. They mentioned that the big names like Disney aren't really impacted by this. But I wonder if there's an indirect impact. I know someone who looked into DVC but couldnt resist the bargain they got from a Sheraton.
 
I'm sure the Disney Vacation Club contracts will decrease in value over the next decade or so since the contracts will have fewer years remaining before they expire. However, I do not predict people will be giving them away for free or selling for little money. The price of on property Disney hotel rooms is extremely high now and will only increase in the years to come. My thoughts are that, in the years to come, DVC Owners will be sitting back with a satisfied smile saying, "I'm sure glad I bought into this timeshare many years ago or we wouldn't be able to afford our vacations now!". ;)
 

I'm very surprised DVC has been so aggressive with pricing increases. They must be getting enough sales to make it worth it, or some other strategy. In my opinion, they've priced all of their direct sales waaaaay too high, given current market conditions. $140 / $130 / or even $120 just not in line with the current market value. I predict more attempts to pump value into direct sales vs. resale, similar to the whole reslale trading restrictions thing. This is unfortunate since I think DVC will lose some of the great simplicity and flexibility that made it worth it in the first place.

How can it be that the DVC timeshares are going up to $140 soon???
 
I did not see the show but the issue mentioned that many having timeshares sell them for very little because, among other reasons, the maintenance fees are problematic, is not something new and has been around for a couple decades. Articles on this have popped up over the years going back a long way. Problem may be somewhat more acute now because of the lousy economy but it is not really different and likely has no more impact on Disney than it always has.
 
They mentioned that the big names like Disney aren't really impacted by this.
That's either wishful thinking or they're trying not to offend big advertisers. No network talk show is going to trash a big advertiser.

Just a quick check on eBay shows both Marriott and Wyndham timeshares listed for $1 - $500. Hiltons are holding up better, but they're still selling for a fraction of the original cost. I didn't check Sheraton, but I'd expect them to be about the same as Wyndham and Marriott.
 
A lot of people don't think long term when buying a timeshare.

When we are young we think we are invincible - and that things will 'ALWAYS' be the same. People think "We are ALWAYS going to go on vacation the week of July 4th - and since we LOVE the beach - timeshare makes sense for us."

However, people soon realize that times change, people change, family situations change, and more importantly vacations destinations change.

How many DVC resorts were built before Disney's Animal Kingdom was?
Destinations change - things built up - and things come and go.

What may have been a great resort property 10 years ago now looks 10 years old - had 10 years of wear and tear - and 10 years of abuse.

It is easy for people to lose sight of the one constant in all of our lives - CHANGE.

For us, DVC makes sense now - and will continue to make sense as long as we vacation.... anywhere.

My in-laws rented a huge cabin outside of Gatlinburg two years ago for the whole family - and for what they spent on just 6 or 7 nights could get us almost 3 weeks at Hilton Head Island thanks to DVC.

The price of clean, comfortable, and well maintained accommodations will not go down. The price will only continue to rise.

For what we spent on two trips to Wilderness Lodge, we could have vacationed with DVC until 2060!

People lose sight of what exactly timeshare it - and what it isn't.

It isn't an investment - DVC is never going to send you a dividend check.
It isn't fool proof - it takes some patience to learn how it all works.
It isn't the last money you will ever spend on vacation.
It isn't a vacation home.
It isn't the only way to travel on a budget.

You have to get to know it for exactly what it is.
 
How can it be that the DVC timeshares are going up to $140 soon???

Disney increases the price, then offers limited time discounts and uses the increasing price as a sales tool. Probably 80% of Disney's buyers don't know about resale and very few know anything about the DVC.

:earsboy: Bill
 
How can it be that the DVC timeshares are going up to $140 soon???

I would think that most buyers are not aware of the resale market. I would guess that a significant number of purchasers perform little or no research before finding that they are the owners of a timeshare. The sales model for this industry is based on a high pressure pitch to a captive audience.
 
I would think that most buyers are not aware of the resale market. I would guess that a significant number of purchasers perform little or no research before finding that they are the owners of a timeshare. The sales model for this industry is based on a high pressure pitch to a captive audience.

And Disney has a great captive audience.

My family has noticed that while we are on any vacation, its "the best vacation we've ever taken." And "we will have to find a way to do this again." Cruising, Hawaii, Europe, Disney - about the only vacation that doesn't fit was camping in 100 degree heat with horseflies.

And when your family is in the midst of their "Best Vacation Ever!!!" and looking for a way to make it easy to make this repeatable, and they have vacation brain, and a limited amount of time to take from the parks to do careful consideration - its an easy sell.
 
Just to be clear, have any of the "point system" timeshares decreased to a $1 market value? I would think the flexibility prevents this. DVC contracts do not require you to stay at a specific location for a specific week.

Also even if the early DVC contracts become "worthless" in 2040, you only have a few more years... I don't think people will give them away.
 
Just to be clear, have any of the "point system" timeshares decreased to a $1 market value? I would think the flexibility prevents this.
Yes.

Wyndham is a points system, and Marriott is in the process of converting to a points system. Hilton appears to be a points system, although I'm not familiar with it. Don't know about Sheraton. Probably Dean or Brian can give you more info.

Over on the TUG Wyndham board today there was a new purchaser asking how to rescind his recent purchase. He bought 300,000 Wyndham points for $47,000. I recently bought 500,000 Wyndham points on eBay for a little less than $2,000 including all closing and transfer costs.

There are currently a lot of small-medium sized Wyndham contracts on eBay with $1 listings, no bids, and expiring in a few hours. So there are not only $1 contracts available, there are $1 contracts that are not selling.

I don't think DVC will ever sell for $1 on eBay, but I do think DVC contracts will continue the rapid decline in resale prices that they've experienced for the last couple of years..
 
I've said this before, but there is a fundamental problem with timeshares and the resale market that, eventually, forces every resort/system into these sorts of valuations.

The problem is that very few people wake up in the morning and think to themselves
Today I'm going to legally obligate myself to pay for the operating and upkeep costs of some fraction of a luxury vacation condominium for the next many decades.
Sure, some people wake up with such a thought---there are some folks who calmly and deliberately seek out timeshares to purchase. I own three of them! But, the number of such people is not unlimited. In other words, there isn't a lot of "natural demand" for a timeshare.

So, if there isn't this huge pent-up demand for people clamoring to buy timeshare, how does it get sold? It gets sold in a very calculated way, meant to create demand amongst people who previously hadn't seriously considered it. A couple or young family is on vacation, literally having the time of their lives, when someone explains to them that they can bottle this magical vacation feeling forever! And, better yet, they can do so "at today's prices!" How cool is that?

Cool enough that it moves A LOT of product. But, it moves product at prices based on emotional factors, not rational dollars-and-cents factors. At the end of the day, the developer extracts a *premium* thanks to that vacation magic feeling.

Most of these people---the vast majority, in fact---love what they've purchased. Sure, it is a luxury purchase, and a bit of a stretch, but after all they can afford it, and gosh darn it they sort of deserve it too! They use the product, they enjoy it, and have many years of great vacations going forward with friends and family. They are happy even though it may not have been the best deal ever. But, a few---some small percentage---either don't love it, or their circumstances change such that they can no longer make use of it or afford it. So, they put it on the market. Some of them are in such dire straits, or so disillusioned, that they'd sell it even if they got next to nothing for it, because they just want to be done with the darn thing.

So, here is where the problem lies. The developers are constantly creating more and more owners through their calculated "bottle the magic" presentations. If the percentage of people who find themselves with something they didn't really want stays roughly the same, the resale market also is constantly growing in size. Unless that pool of "calm deliberate" purchasers who wake up in the morning wanting timeshare is also growing---and growing at about the same rate---resale prices have to fall and, eventually, collapse. And, history tells us that every timeshare, no matter how desirable, eventually succumbs to this if it continues to grow via development.

And, I don't know about you, but I don't see any signs that DVC is going to stop development anytime soon.

There are some mechanisms that slow this process down some. If real-market rental rates are consistently higher than ongoing costs to owners, the property has some residual "dollars-and-cents" value. That's true for DVC right now, and will probably remain so unless and until the resale market gets so cluttered that too many owners decided that renting is better than selling, and they flood the rental market as well. Unfortunately, there is some evidence that some owners are making this decision, via the Timeshare Store's recent foray into rental management (and more importantly the reasons behind it.)

ROFR also potentially offers a mechanism to put the brakes on any market-size-induced collapse. But, ROFR depends on the developer's willingness to potentially acquire a large number of deeds---and pay the ongoing maintenance on them---until such time as they can be sold. The margins on this are surprisingly small; marketing expenses are anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2 the total cost of a timeshare project, and those marketing expenses have to be paid all over again to sell a deed a second (or third or fourth) time, plus eat the costs of carrying the deed in the meantime. As it stands, Disney seems to have decided that their capital is better spent developing new projects than reacquiring deeds to old ones. They could put the reacquired deeds into the CRO pool, but the whole point of DVC from Disney's point of view was to avoid having to pay ongoing marketing costs for these resorts renting them out year after year.

So, where does that leave us? As the system grows, eventually it will outstrip the "natural demand" in the resale market, unless that market demand grows just as quickly. Once you hit that point, things can get bad in a hurry. The mechanisms to avoid this---rental and ROFR---only delay the inevitable. The only way out is to stop (or slow down) development, but that's not in Disney's interests.

Whether we've reached that point today or not is not clear to me. Perhaps we're just in a transitory period brought on by the economy. If so, prices should stabilize and perhaps recover relatively quickly, because travel demand is picking back up. Disney reported both increased occupancy and increased per-room spending just this past quarter. But, we might also have reached that crossing point. Time will tell.
 
There are some mechanisms that slow this process down some. If real-market rental rates are consistently higher than ongoing costs to owners, the property has some residual "dollars-and-cents" value. That's true for DVC right now, and will probably remain so unless and until the resale market gets so cluttered that too many owners decided that renting is better than selling, and they flood the rental market as well. Unfortunately, there is some evidence that some owners are making this decision, via the Timeshare Store's recent foray into rental management (and more importantly the reasons behind it.)
I don't usually quibble much with the professor from the People's Republic of Ann Arbor, but I will a little on this point.

I think this support is really only effective at WDW. That's because at WDW, DVC has a truly unique product -- beautifully themed DISNEY resorts ONSITE at WDW. That is percieved as real value by most prospective purchasers, and that unique differentiation offers some support for both direct and resale prices. I actually think the uniqueness of the WDW DVC resorts contributes more price support than the relative cost of other onsite lodging.

However, I don't think this advantage really exists at DVC resorts outside WDW. It certainly does not exist at all at VB or HHI, and I would argue Aulani. In fact, I think there are MUCH better timeshares available in Hilton Head and Hawaii for a fraction of the cost via resale.

Vero is not exactly a hotbed of timeshare development, nor is it one of Florida's hottest tourist meccas, so it's kind of a special case. It's a beautiful resort, but it was a mistake...which is why DVD only built half of it.

And at Grand California, I don't think there is much of an onsite advantage. Certainly the GC is a nicer hotel than others in the immediate area, but it's not the same as being onsite at WDW.

As far as ROFR, I think DVD is pretty much done with ROFR...and for exactly the reasons Brian outlined.
 
I agree with all of that 100%, and that is a big part of why VB and HHI resale values have always been lower---the financial payoff is much riskier, because you are relying on 7-month reservations. GCV is more of a niche product, and it's okay if its market is small, I think, because the resort is small. After all, if there are enough people to fill the DLR hotels at their exorbitant rates, there are probably enough people to continue to support the handful of rooms at GCV going forward.

Aulani is going to be a very interesting test case. It seems as though they've gone to some effort to make it a destination. I'm not a huge fan of the location, but it has worked well for Marriott.
 
My thoughts are that, in the years to come, DVC Owners will be sitting back with a satisfied smile saying, "I'm sure glad I bought into this timeshare many years ago or we wouldn't be able to afford our vacations now!". ;)

Oh man: that's a classic "run --don't walk-- away immediately" indicator of a bubble. Think housing bubble: "if we don't buy a house now, we'll never be able to afford one!"

If prices outpace the consumer's ability to pay, the prices come down.
 
On the surface, it appears there is a limited number of DVC rooms that the WDW resort complex can sustain from a land use standpoint. WDW could continue to build more, but once the GF and Poly have DVC resorts, the rest will need to be made from scratch. That said, it is difficult to contemplate Disney would simply continue to build DVC resorts on property without another theme park to back up the new property, especially given the lessons of SSR.

I could be wrong, though. ;)
 
Why? SSR was adequately successful from TWDC's perspective. It sold well enough, and that is all that matters. Had they not skimped on resort amenities in the first place, (turf club early on, and the paddock pool this summer) it might have done even better.
 












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