To the DISer whose husband was looking for a teaching job

[Hannathy]

Please don't jump to conclusions that it's the teachers. This plan is going to backfire- Even if they hire back the top 50% of the teachers, that leaves half the staff unfilled. Who is going to take this kind of job with a super like this and a board which acts like this?

I'm sure they will have no problem finding teachers. the Northeast is full of thousands of teachers looking for work. And more coming out in May.

And by the way this is the way the rest of the world operates all the time in other fields, perform or you are out.

 

[daughtersrus]

This school, as a whole, was failing -

This DISTRICT as a whole is failing. There is only one school that is making AYP and that is an elementary school that does not have any ELL or students with disabilities. What is Gallo doing to correct the problem before the students get to high school?

the staff knew it and knew the options the superintendant faced - and refused to compromise when she offered a decent plan - $1800 for taking professional improvement courses during the summer, and grant money to pay for part of the additional time they worked.

She said that she would try to get grant money but couldn't promise that they would get paid. She was only willing to pay them $30/hour for the extra time in the summer.

The article states many of the staff are maxed for their levels- obviously thought they were unfireable, even though they weren't doing their jobs at the level mandated by the state, as evidenced by test results.

Not true. The contract addresses this issue.

 

[daughtersrus]

I truly believe that there has to have been another option besides just up and firing so many people. As I have been told, there are always other choices to be made. Maybe Gallo thinks that by firing everyone and starting all over again everything will change - I highly doubt that.

There were four choices. I'm not sure if anyone looked into the other two.

 

[disneyandme]

I'm sure they will have no problem finding teachers. the Northeast is full of thousands of teachers looking for work. And more coming out in May.

And by the way this is the way the rest of the world operates all the time in other fields, perform or you are out.

The rest of the world doesn't get fired because someone else doesn't perform.

 

[daughtersrus]

The teachers in question were in a low income area their students parents averaged 22,000 they averaged 70,000. Understand why they perhaps got a little upset when the teachers wouldn't spend an extra 20 minutes a day?

What does the parent's income have to do with it?


One of our local school districts have an average salary of $80,000 but yet the average salary for those living in the district is $260,000.

And by the way this is the way the rest of the world operates all the time in other fields, perform or you are out.

What other jobs determine employee performance based on what someone else does or doesn't do?

 

[Hannathy]

The rest of the world doesn't get fired because someone else doesn't perform.

Their job is to get the kids to "perform" And yes managers all over are fired when their staff doesn't perform

 

[Hannathy]

What does the parent's income have to do with it?


One of our local school districts have an average salary of $80,000 but yet the average salary for those living in the district is $260,000.

When someone is making 3-4 times what you are for shorter days and more vacation it is pretty frustrating to see them bellyaching over 20 minutes. That was my point. And seeing how they are paying the salaries I think they have a right to be upset.

 

[daughtersrus]

Their job is to get the kids to "perform" And yes managers all over are fired when their staff doesn't perform

You're comparing apples to oranges.
In the situation you gave, there is incentive for the staff to perform. What incentive is there for high school students that don't want to be in school to perform?

Yes but most professions teachers get compared to work at least 50 hours a week under normal circumstances and a lot more for projects or problems. and year round.

What jobs are these?

 

[daughtersrus]

When someone is making 3-4 times what you are for shorter days and more vacation it is pretty frustrating to see them bellyaching over 20 minutes. That was my point. And seeing how they are paying the salaries I think they have a right to be upset.

You keep saying 20 minutes but that's not accurate. It's 20 minutes a day, plus the extra time for tutoring, 90 minutes a week for meetings and lunch one day a week. That comes to about 280 minutes a week or 10,360 for the school year. Of course this doesn't include the extra two weeks in the summer as well or for the time that they spend outside of normal school hours grading papers or prepping.

As for vacation, they get no paid vacation time. They are only paid for their contracted days.

 

[HsvTeacher]

Their job is to get the kids to "perform" And yes managers all over are fired when their staff doesn't perform

I'm sure they will have no problem finding teachers. the Northeast is full of thousands of teachers looking for work. And more coming out in May.

And by the way this is the way the rest of the world operates all the time in other fields, perform or you are out.

And this is where your logic is faulty. Managers can fire their staff if they are not performing. Can teachers fire their students?

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

There were four choices. I'm not sure if anyone looked into the other two.

I don't know either, but that proves that there were other choices and weren't examined (or at least not made public knowledge that they were considered).

When someone is making 3-4 times what you are for shorter days and more vacation it is pretty frustrating to see them bellyaching over 20 minutes. That was my point. And seeing how they are paying the salaries I think they have a right to be upset.

But it's not 20 minutes a day - it's more like several hours a day. 20 minutes is nothing but when there are hours added on, that is where I would draw the line.

If your boss came to you and said that he/she would need you to work 4 extra hours on top of your 8 hour shift everyday for the indefinite future, what would you do?

Personally, I would do it, but I would also start looking for another job. Maybe that is why I'm not cut out to be a teacher...

 

[Hannathy]

It was not several hours a day. I have not seen that anywhere. And even if it was a 10 hour day is pretty norm for salaried employees making what they were making. And with 2 weeks in the summer they still have more time off than most salaried folks in that level of a job.

Most mid level managers don't have firing authority so no they can't just fire non producing staff, it is up to them to motivate them same as teachers.

 

[daughtersrus]

It was not several hours a day. I have not seen that anywhere. And even if it was a 10 hour day is pretty norm for salaried employees making what they were making. And with 2 weeks in the summer they still have more time off than most salaried folks in that level of a job.

Most mid level managers don't have firing authority so no they can't just fire non producing staff, it is up to them to motivate them same as teachers.

Please post the article where you read that Gallo was only asking for 20 minutes a day and nothing else.

Also, why do you think that managers do not have the power to fire?

You say that they need to motivate their employees but you're forgetting that the employee already has a motivation, money. What is the motivation for high school students that don't want to be in school?

You keep saying that there are other professions. Can you please post a list of them so that we know which ones you're comparing teachers to?

 

[HsvTeacher]

It was not several hours a day. I have not seen that anywhere. And even if it was a 10 hour day is pretty norm for salaried employees making what they were making. And with 2 weeks in the summer they still have more time off than most salaried folks in that level of a job.

Most mid level managers don't have firing authority so no they can't just fire non producing staff, it is up to them to motivate them same as teachers.[B/]

So, you're saying that a mid-level manager can do nothing about an employee who shows up an hour late everyday, takes an extended lunch break, doesn't do his/her job, etc? And you're also saying that the mid-level manager would be fired if that was happening? They are just stuck with that employee? Before I began teaching, I worked for several mid-level managers who could fire people at will.

And, by the way, you never said mid-level managers in your other post. You might want to be clearer the next time, so it doesn't seem like you're bending your opinion just to be obstinate.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

It was not several hours a day. I have not seen that anywhere. And even if it was a 10 hour day is pretty norm for salaried employees making what they were making. And with 2 weeks in the summer they still have more time off than most salaried folks in that level of a job.

Most mid level managers don't have firing authority so no they can't just fire non producing staff, it is up to them to motivate them same as teachers.

Here is the link to the article that listed exactly what was being asked of the teachers. http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_turmoil_02-28-10_TQHGS9N_v292.38b0e26.html


If you add all of that time, it's at least 3.5 hours 5 days a week for the indefinite future - and no, you are sorely mistaken when you stated that teachers only work 6 hours a day. All of the teachers I know work more than 6 hours a day and do it happily because they care about their students.

If you were in this position, how would you motivate the kids like you said the teachers should?

 

[Hannathy]

280 minutes a week isn't even an hour a day. So add 1 hour a day onto 8 and that is still less than most people I know. Especially people who make 72,000 a year plus full and great benefits.

Just because you oversee employees that does not mean you have hiring and firing rights especially in a large corporation.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

280 minutes a week isn't even an hour a day. So add 1 hour a day onto 8 and that is still less than most people I know. Especially people who make 72,000 a year plus full and great benefits.

Just because you oversee employees that does not mean you have hiring and firing rights especially in a large corporation.

I'm sorry, the link I posted did not work - I have replaced it with the working link.

Can you tell me where you are getting 280 minutes from?

KEY POINTSTransformation

Six conditions Central Falls High School teachers were told they must agree to in order to keep their jobs:

Increase length of school day by 25 minutes to provide more instructional time for students.


Formalize tutoring schedule so struggling students have extra help for one hour before and after school.


Agree to eat lunch with students one day a week to build stronger relationships.


Attend two weeks of professional development in the summer at a rate of $30 an hour ($1,800 per year).


Stay after school for 90 minutes one day each week to work with fellow teachers analyzing student work and test data and discussing ways to improve teaching at a rate of $30 an hour if Gallo could find grant financing ($1,620 per year).

According to the information above taken directly from the link in my last post says nothing about 280 minutes a week?

 

[Telcogirl]

i found this section of a cnn reprt on the RI matter:

"In a proposal based on federal guidelines, Gallo asked teachers to work a longer school day of seven hours and tutor students weekly for one hour outside school time. She proposed teachers have lunch with students often, meet for 90 minutes every week to discuss education and set aside two weeks during summer break for paid professional development.

A spokesman for the union said the teachers had accepted most of the changes, but wanted to work out compensation for the extra hours of work."



You add all this extra time and you are looking at an additional 9 1/2 hrs plus lunch a week. Supposedly the teacher had agreed to everything expect the longer school day. The super wanted hem to take it unpaid- I wondred about how some of the teachers with families would pay for the extended childcare. Anyway, it wasn't all about 25 minutes of lunch- it's more like 10 hrs a week of extra unpaid time.

Here is the list of the 6 points of transformation as listed on yesterday's local state paper (The Providence Journal):

"Six conditions Central Falls High School teachers were told they must agree to in order to keep their jobs:

Increase length of school day by 25 minutes to provide more instructional time for students.

Formalize tutoring schedule so struggling students have extra help for one hour before and after school.

Agree to eat lunch with students one day a week to build stronger relationships.

Attend two weeks of professional development in the summer at a rate of $30 an hour ($1,800 per year).

Stay after school for 90 minutes one day each week to work with fellow teachers analyzing student work and test data and discussing ways to improve teaching at a rate of $30 an hour.

Accept more rigorous evaluations by a third party starting March 1. "


I am not sure where you get 9 1/2 extra hours a week. From my interpretation of the requirements, the only daily increase is the 25 minutes per school day. All of the other points are looking to establish a weekly schedule. It does not appear that the teachers would have to spend their lunch breaks EVERY day. Nor would they have to spend extra time tutoring every day. Does it sound like there will be some extra work for no extra pay? Yes, it does. The reality of that concept is that most of us have or have had the same thing happen in our careers and professions at some time or another as well.


I am not posting this to stir anything up, I am just posting this to outline the facts as it pertains to this particular school district and these particular teachers. From reading through this discussion, it is apparent that the teaching profession is not uniform throughout the country as it pertains to salaries.

I think it's important to note that this serious issue is a result of the federally funded school improvement grants, which are endorsed by the Obama administration.

This grant program pushes for one of four approaches:
School closures
Being taken over by a charter school
Transformation (which is what they were trying to go for in Central Falls)
And finally, turnover which removes the entire staff, with no more than half rehired. (which is what is now happening)

This will certainly be a precedant setting situation for sure.

 

[fac]

Does it sound like there will be some extra work for no extra pay? Yes, it does. The reality of that concept is that most of us have or have had the same thing happen in our careers and professions at some time or another as well.

.

I think this is the disconnect we have with some teachers..
If the teachers want to argue that it is not in the contract hence, they refuse to do the work, fine. But extra work with no pay does happen in many of the professions.


BTW, I spent many years in Wall Street, at least several times in my career and not only in the last 2 years, I had seen the whole division disappeared overnight with empty desks.
Is it fair ? No. But for some of us non-teachers, we are pointing out the facts.
Note that in my child's case, her SPED teacher volunteers to give her one-on-one knowing that I also paid her co-worker to tutor my child. Sometimes, we just need to do some extra work to do our job.

I also saw some argument to compare the students as employees, I am not even go into that discussion.

 

[disneyandme]

Here is the list of the 6 points of transformation as listed on yesterday's local state paper (The Providence Journal):

"Six conditions Central Falls High School teachers were told they must agree to in order to keep their jobs:

Increase length of school day by 25 minutes to provide more instructional time for students.

Formalize tutoring schedule so struggling students have extra help for one hour before and after school.

Agree to eat lunch with students one day a week to build stronger relationships.

Attend two weeks of professional development in the summer at a rate of $30 an hour ($1,800 per year).

Stay after school for 90 minutes one day each week to work with fellow teachers analyzing student work and test data and discussing ways to improve teaching at a rate of $30 an hour.

Accept more rigorous evaluations by a third party starting March 1. "


I am not sure where you get 9 1/2 extra hours a week. From my interpretation of the requirements, the only daily increase is the 25 minutes per school day. All of the other points are looking to establish a weekly schedule. It does not appear that the teachers would have to spend their lunch breaks EVERY day. Nor would they have to spend extra time tutoring every day. Does it sound like there will be some extra work for no extra pay? Yes, it does. The reality of that concept is that most of us have or have had the same thing happen in our careers and professions at some time or another as well.


I am not posting this to stir anything up, I am just posting this to outline the facts as it pertains to this particular school district and these particular teachers. From reading through this discussion, it is apparent that the teaching profession is not uniform throughout the country as it pertains to salaries.

I think it's important to note that this serious issue is a result of the federally funded school improvement grants, which are endorsed by the Obama administration.

This grant program pushes for one of four approaches:
School closures
Being taken over by a charter school
Transformation (which is what they were trying to go for in Central Falls)
And finally, turnover which removes the entire staff, with no more than half rehired. (which is what is now happening)

This will certainly be a precedant setting situation for sure.

If you are going to quote me, make sure you read it before you comment. The original artical gives what the super asked for and it added up to 9 1/2 hrs a week. The teachers gave major concessions on work load and time, but would not give in on the last 25 minutes a day. They were not going to be paid for any of the extra time nor the planning that would be involved outside of school. The super said she would try to get some compensation through a grant but it was not contigent on them agreeing to do the work. hen the super didn't get her way, she went through and fired eveybody.