To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

I think these are basically the same rules that apply to the Halloween parties, so you’ll have a chance to try them out then, with hopefully enough time to utilize a backup plan before Disneyland.

It's a good point. These are the Halloween party rules:



For this one, it just says "strongly discouraged and may be subject to additional security screening." Which I mean is easy enough because the costume can easily come on and off.

 

[DopeyBadger]

2023 Summer - LIIFT4, LIIFT More, and Easy Running - Recap
-Training Plan
-Half-way Check-in

The 17 week summer training plan has come to an end. Not much to add that I didn't already cover in the mid-point recap. LIIFT More is more lifting. I feel as if I made some serious gains in my arms. The side of the shoulders was better in LIIFT More and the upper traps was better in LIIFT4. Chest/Back is tough because I probably needed to increase my dumbbells even more but hadn't yet. But ultimately, the more lifting in LIIFT More is what makes it more useful to me. I don't really need the HIIT that much when I'm in the midst of a running plan. So moving forward, I'll probably stick with LIIFT More.

As for maintaining running fitness, I feel like I'm in a good place. My Garmin VO2max sits at 53 (peak of 57 in previous training plan) and estimates are 19:39 5k, 42:33 10k, 1:41:47 HM, and 3:52:21 M. At the end of the last training plan I was probably around a 18:50 5k, 39:30 10k, 1:28:30 HM, and 3:14 M (Garmin estimates and not actual race times). So it'll be interesting to see all of these values raise back up as the volume comes back in the next training plan.

 

[FFigawi]

New costume rules for Wine and Dine 2023 (and presumably other weekends).

View attachment 789149

With these new additions, is the Mike/Marty costume "layered" or "costume props including, without limitation, those that surround the entire body..."? I'm thinking they might be a no now.

I doubt they'll be allowed now. Ryan was told his Mr. Potato Head costume would not be allowed, and it’s not too much different in style than yours. You might want to email rD and ask to be sure.

 

[DopeyBadger]

2023 Fall/Winter & 2024 Spring Training Plans - Canova - Disneyland 5k/10k/HM & Non-Cancelled M

The end of the 2023 summer training plan with LIIFT4, LIIFT More, and all easy running at a lower volume brings the beginning of the next training plan. With the summer temps hopefully/mostly in the past, it's time to bring back the running volume and get ready to attack some new races. So let's dive in to what I've come up with.



Pacing

So the place I like to start when developing a training plan is the pacing of the plan. I'm an advocate to use recent races to determine current fitness, and then use that information to setup training paces. The last few training plans I've been using my 2019 HM in 1:28:40, 2020 Mile in 5:42, and 2020 M in 3:15:13. But to be fair and honest, I'm probably not there anymore for one reason or another. So I'm using my 2023 Spring season as the basis for determining pacing. I ran a 42:42 10k and 1:32:25 HM. The HM is the better of the two and translates to a 7:20 marathon training pace (3:12:35, not that I think that's a realistic goal at the moment). So I plugged the 7:20 pace into the Canova training pace formula and got the following:



The formula is:

M Tempo pace + or - ((M Tempo pace/100) * (% Pace - 100))



Goal Races

I'm tentatively planning for the following:

11/12/23 - Madison HM
12/3/23 - Last Call HM
1/12-14/24 - Disneyland 5k, 10k, HM
4/27/24 - Non-Cancelled M
5/4/24 - Wisconsin M (back up race)

The training plan is 35 weeks long. That's longer than I usually write training plans for, but in reality it's two separate training plans. But the second plan builds off the first, so it was necessary to write both at the same time so that I could weave the two plans together cohesively. We'll cover the ins and outs of that later in this summary.



Strength Training

I plan to continue to use the LIIFT More program with alterations. I'll only do the strength training on the weekends when I have more time. I won't do the Legs workouts, and I won't do the HIIT portion of the workouts. I will continue to do the burn-outs and the core. Because of how the weeks play out, I'll start LIIFT More and then restart it before I finish at Week 28 to go because then it ends on time. This will give me about 1:20 hrs of strength training per week.


Run Training

So the training plan starts this week (8/28/23). Since my running volume has been about 3.5-4 hrs per week and 22-26 miles per week, I'm taking a few weeks to ease back into my normal training volume. I'm reinitiating running six days per week with two strength days on the weekend. I'm going to hold at about an hour per day for the first four weeks. At the start, I'll stay at the 80-85% M Tempo area. I've got 35 miles scheduled for the first week. I've got my second of three head surgeries to remove some pilar cysts from my scalp so I'm forbidden from running for 24 hrs after the procedure.

After two weeks of solely easy running, then I'll reintroduce some strides. Aiming for 4-6 strides per run within the last mile with each lasting about 15 seconds and a resting interval of being fully prepared before the next.

In the fourth week of the training plan, I'll start the classic Canova hill sprints. Aiming for 15s reps at a near maximal pace on a rather steep uphill. The resting intervals are about 2 min and are an easy pace/walk downhill.

Running volume wise the plan hovers around 42 miles per week in roughly 6 hours.



Moving into the week of Sept 25th, we start moving into some real workouts. The hill sprint workout will continue for the next 3 weeks. In addition, I'll do some other classic Canova workouts:

LR/HMT Alternations: 2 mile WU + 20 sets of (1 min @ 8:48 + 1 min @ 7:02)
LR at 80% on Jack/Jill route: 10 miles @ 8:48 min/mile (Jack/Jill)

Once the LR gets longer, then I'll drop back down the mileage of the long run and increase the pace to 85% (8:02).

I'll be aiming for three hard workouts per week on Tues/Thurs/Sun.

At the end of this 4 week block is the Disney World trip for the Halloween party. So I'll keep running, but at a reduced volume.

Running volume wise the plan hovers around 48 miles per week in roughly 7 hours.



Once we return home from Disney, it's time to get down to business by entering the Canova Fundamental phase.

I'll continue to aim for hard workouts on Tues/Thurs/Sun. Workout wise, we're looking at:

Long Alternations: 1.5 mile WU + 4 x 1 miles @ HM Tempo UPHILL w/ 1 mile @ 8:48 between + 1.5 mile CD

These uphill workouts will be on the Jack/Jill hill running relatively fast up the hill and then taking it easier down the hill for the same mile.

Short Alternations: 1.5 mile WU + 10 x 3 min at 109% with 2 min RI + 1.5 mile CD

One thing that I felt was missing from the last Canova plan was more really faster paced work. So this one touches on that range.

The Madison HM comes on 11/12/23. This is tentatively scheduled, and we'll see how I'm feeling fitness wise as to whether I'll go through with it.

Progression Alternations: 1.5 mile WU + 4 x 1 miles @ 7:05, 7:00, 6:55, 6:50 UPHILL w/ 1 mile @ 8:48 between + 1.5 mile CD

Advancing the long alternations from HM Tempo to pushing the pace a bit harder on each.

Wrap up the 4 week block with the longest training run so far at 18 miles at a very leisurely 8:48 (80%) pace.

Running volume wise the plan hovers around 54 miles per week in roughly 8 hours.



Two final weeks of Fundamental before moving into the Specific phase.

Workout wise we're looking at:

Short Alternations: 1.5 mile + 5 x 6 min at 107% (6:50) with 3 min RI + 1.5 mile

Slower, but longer.

Last Call HM is more likely to happen given it's a little further into the future. Additionally, there's still six weeks before the Disneyland weekend. So plenty of time to recover and attack the remaining training in the specific phase.

Uphill Ladder: 1.5 mile WU + Uphill Ladder (3min 6:44, 6min 6:54, 9 min 7:02, 12min 7:20, 9min 7:02, 6min 6:54, 3min 6:44) with 2.5min RI between + 1.5 mile CD

This will be a progressive climb up the hill and then back down, and then write back up again. We'll see how it goes, but this one looks fun.

Mona: 1 mile WU + 3 sets of (1 mile HM Tempo Uphill + 2 min RI + 4 x 15s w/ 2 min RI) + 1 mile CD

Mix of HM Tempo and then some quick sprints.

Specific Intensive Endurance: 2 mile WU + 4 sets of (1km at 6:50 + 1km at 7:20) + 2 mile CD

An over/under workout around HM Tempo pace.

Doubles start up again, but not with two hard workouts quite yet (as was seen in the last Canova training plan). I really liked how the doubles felt last year, and I'm testing out a new routine that I plan to use in the second training plan. The morning workout is a super easy paced treadmill workout, and then the evening workout is a slightly quicker easy pace.

Now that the series of races has started, the running volume hovers around 52 miles per week in roughly 7-7.5 hours.




As we enter the end of the first training plan, the running volume hovers around 54 miles per week in roughly 7.5-8 hours.

We see more similar workouts with the Ladder, Long Alternations, the first time we see a 90% paced LR, Mona, SIE, a double, and then Disneyland race weekend.




Coming up, part 2!

 

[DopeyBadger]

2023 Fall/Winter & 2024 Spring Training Plans - Canova - Disneyland 5k/10k/HM & Non-Cancelled M - Part 2

So after the runDisney Disneyland weekend is when the second phase of the training plan begins with a focus on the Non-Cancelled M. I've decided to try and take the training up another notch to see what happens. This plan is written in pencil because I don't know how things in life will be going. But for now, this is what I'm aiming for.

The plan starts the week of 1/15/24 after the Disneyland weekend. It's still up in the air how I'll treat that first week back to training. The data supports that taking off a few additional days may improve the training load information, and it'll allow some recovery from the race weekend. So we'll see how that part plays out.

As we move into the second week of the training plan, I'm moving to running 7 days per week. This will be the first time I attempt this, but given Steph doesn't work Monday evenings any more this opens me up to the possibility. I'm aiming to do 2 hard workouts per week instead of 3. Additionally, doubles will become more common. The plan will be an easy treadmill morning run in the 40-45 min range and then a still easy (but faster) outdoor evening run in the 60-75 min range. I plan to always take a non-double and super duper easy day after every hard workout.

Workout wise:

Uphills (like the beginning of phase 1)
LR at 80% M Tempo (so fairly slow and easy)
Mixed: 3 mile WU + 9 min @ 109% (6:40) + 4 min RI + 6 min @ 111% (6:32) + 3 min RI + 10 x 45s at 115% (6:14) with 1 min RI + 2 mile CD

Again, the hope is to bring in some more faster paced work than the last time I did Canova.

Long Progression: 2 mi WU + 20 min @ 96% (7:38) + 20 min @ 100% (7:20) + 15 min @ 105% (6:58) + 2 mile CD

A 20 miler at an easy pace.
A 15 miler with 10 at M Tempo.

Again, as a reminder, I felt a deficiency of the last Canova plan was the amount of long sustained M Tempo runs like you would see in a Hansons plan. So I've put a few more of those in this training plan this time around.

Running wise, the volume is about 60-75 miles per week and 8-11 hours. While the volume is high, for the most part the pace is very very easy.



Heading into the 11 weeks to go stretch, we have one remaining week of General/Fundamental before the Specific phase starts up. We see a Uphill Ladder workout, and then a faster LR at 90% pace (a more traditional LR pace like you would find with Hansons or Daniels).

Then comes the Specific phase and a real buckle up time.

Marathon Alternations: 1.5 mile WU + 4 sets of (12 min 7:20 + 3 min 7:42 + 3 min 6:36 + 1 km at 9:30)
Canova 100: 13.6 miles @ M Tempo (100 min) on Jack/Jill

Which is 100 minutes at Marathon pace. Didn't hit this one successfully in my last Canova attempt. I'm hoping a more appropriate pace structure will improve the outcome here.

Specific Intensive Endurance: 2 mile WU + 6 sets of (1km at 7:07 + 1km at 7:33) + 2 mile CD

A classic Canova over/under workout bracketing M Tempo pace.

Running wise, the volume is about 60-70 miles per week and 8.5-10 hours. The intensity picks up a bit more and the volume comes back down a little.



Only 8 weeks to go, and now we're into the meat of the training plan.

LR FF Double: 35 min @ Mod (85%) + 45 min @ M Tempo (100%) (x2)

A matching morning and evening workout which covers 80 min and roughly 10 miles. This one is a doozy.

15 miler at 90% M Tempo (classic LR pace)

Canova 20: 20 miles @ 98% (7:29)

This is the mega workout and the race simulator. It's slightly slower than M Tempo pace, and pushes you right up to the 20 miler mark. This time around, Canova is requesting that the workout not be time based (the Canova 120 which is 120 min of M Tempo) but instead a distance based workout since you're going to have to maintain this pace on race day for that set distance. I'll give it a go, but we'll see. This workout comes with roughly 42 days until race day, and is considered the peak of the training plan.

Descending Volume Progression: 1 mile WU + (21 min at 7:30 + 18 min at 7:25 + 15 min at 7:20 + 12 min at 7:15 + 9 min at 7:10 + 6 min at 7:05) w/ 1 km 8:26 between

Running wise, the volume is about 63-78 miles per week and 9-11 hours. The volume comes back and the intensity remains the same.



Winding down with 5 weeks to go.

Specific Intensive Endurance: 2 mile WU + 7 sets of (1km at 7:07 + 1km at 7:33) + 2 mile CD
LR FF Double: 15 min @ Easy (70%) + 80 min @ 98%

95 min morning and evening workout with the bulk of the work at M Tempo.

Classic 15 mile at LR pace (90%)

Another SIE with more volume.

Running wise, the volume is about 70-78 miles per week and 10-11 hours. Volume and intensity remain the same.



Coming down into the taper with a single hard 10 miler, and then in race week the volume remains relatively high, and there's still some intensity mixed in.



So how does the training plan look when converting everything in terms of training load data?



This is the accumulation of the training load over time (the six week "average"). As you can see there is a steady climb, a leveling off, a bit of a drop off, and then another steady climb.
This was the 2022 Madison M training plan:



And then evaluating it by the difference in "what you're doing now compared to what you've done recently" is:



My personal data supports that I see the most improvement when I stay in the < -10 area of form more often. However, my limit tends to be about 10-12 weeks of being in that training zone before I see a negative effect. So I stick around there for a while pre-Disneyland, but then once race season starts I cool off on trying to make gains and try to maintain instead. So I'm, hoping to have most of the gains made pre-Disneyland by early November. And then it's about sharpening the sword at that point.

Coming off DIsneyland is when I'll jump back into training for the Non-Cancelled M but with 7 days per week and some doubles. The volume keeps going up and stays in that < -10 area for a good period of time before moving into sword sharpening territory.

Compare this with Madison 2022.



The HR data and how I was feeling showed that I was in really good shape at the end of August. I went into sword sharpening mode and maybe just barely missed the mark by the time race day came up. So a few tweaks and I'm hoping to see more representative results on race day in April 2024.

Alright, so that's the plan for the next 35 weeks. We'll see how it goes. I'm choosing to remain flexible and am not wedded to seeing this through if things don't feel right. I really want to jump into this training plan with both feet and have been raring to get back into some serious training the last few weeks. Here's to hoping it pays off.


Goals

1) To enjoy the training.
2) To find that the increased dedication to the training was fruitful. Will the return on investment be worth it? Because it didn't end up being the case for the 2020 Disney M when I did the Full IM Super Crazy Volume plan.
3) Break my Oct 2017 Marathon PR of 3:14:05. The plan is still to aim for 3:14:04 on race day. I won't go out the gate like a crazy person and rather have a very measured approach. Even if my fitness suggests I'm capable of more, I'm not following through on that. Everyone can hold me to that. With that being said, if the data on race day (via HR and effort) says that 3:14:04 ain't happening, then so be it and trust the data.

Thoughts? Critiques?

 

[DopeyBadger]

I doubt they'll be allowed now. Ryan was told his Mr. Potato Head costume would not be allowed, and it’s not too much different in style than yours. You might want to email rD and ask to be sure.

I saw that post too and came to the same conclusion. I'm not pushing my luck with the runDisney race. Maybe there's some wiggle room with the Halloween party and logistically it may be easier to pivot on the day of the party if they're not pleased with the costume. But with a finite starting time of the runDisney race, it really isn't worth it to me to push it. Because maybe the first security person says, "yea, you're good", and then the before you enter the corral person says, "hey friend, can we talk?" And by that time, I'm out of pivot options and race day doesn't go well.

So our current plan, which I'll cover in more detail in a later costume post is to make two costumes for each of us. Continue on with the original costume and wear it for the local Halloween activities (and maybe the Disney World Halloween party), and then as a back-up costume and the primary runDisney costume plan to attach items to the green man/orange man suits. Then there's no foam costume and it's slimmed down to body shape. We plan to try and see if we can do some attachments with velcro that are strong enough to hold the horns, googely eye, felt mouth, and maybe lips/eyelids. We'll see. But that's the current work shopping idea at the moment. I think we're good on the hats being allowable, and the laugh canister seems fine. It's the outer foam costume that seems like an easy no based on the response Ryan got. But that's ok. While it might not be the costumes we envisioned, we want to stay within the rules so we have a fun race/party day.

 

[GollyGadget]

I continue to be astonished by the amount of time and effort that you put forth in creating and executing your training plans. I like the idea of the backup race, especially because spring weather in the Midwest is unpredictable at best. I'll be cheering for you and hoping that you finally found your missing ingredient.

 

[jmasgat]

I am impressed that you can wrap your head around something that goes for 35 weeks--even if you do break it down into 2 parts. I may have missed it, but do you have an "outcome goal(s)" that you are hoping to achieve?

 

[azrivest]

I'm in awe that you would attempt to run 7 days/week, including some weeks with 11 runs. You're inspirational.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I continue to be astonished by the amount of time and effort that you put forth in creating and executing your training plans. I like the idea of the backup race, especially because spring weather in the Midwest is unpredictable at best. I'll be cheering for you and hoping that you finally found your missing ingredient.

A few hours in the writing process pays off for something I might be using for the next 35 weeks. So it's worth it.

Yea, it's that late spring season in WI. And like you said, it can be unpredictable. I've seen cool/cold weather and some quite warm days. Heck, mid-April was a warm Parkinson's HM, and then late April was a near perfect Non-Cancelled HM. So it's nice to pencil in the back-up race if needed.

I am impressed that you can wrap your head around something that goes for 35 weeks--even if you do break it down into 2 parts. I may have missed it, but do you have an "outcome goal(s)" that you are hoping to achieve?

It did take a bit of time to write this and get all the math and logistics to work out. I think I started writing it about 8-9 weeks ago, and then revisited it every once in a while. I really just wanted to make sure I could blend the two plans together.

Good point on the goals. I'll have to go back and add them in.

1) To enjoy the training.
2) To find that the increased dedication to the training was fruitful. Will the return on investment be worth it? Because it didn't end up being the case for the 2020 Disney M when I did the Full IM Super Crazy Volume plan.
3) Break my Oct 2017 Marathon PR of 3:14:05. The plan is still to aim for 3:14:04 on race day. I won't go out the gate like a crazy person and rather have a very measured approach. Even if my fitness suggests I'm capable of more, I'm not following through on that. Everyone can hold me to that. With that being said, if the data on race day (via HR and effort) says that 3:14:04 ain't happening, then so be it and trust the data.

I'm in awe that you would attempt to run 7 days/week, including some weeks with 11 runs. You're inspirational.

Well, inspirational or dumb. We'll find out together. I tolerated the Full IM super crazy volume plan just fine. It was some early mornings and some late evenings. I also felt reasonably good during last year's Canova hard/hard doubles. So we'll see.

 

[Chasing Dopey]

I've got a couple long run questions, because I don't know of anyone who has done the research you have, and this is something that I haven't been able to figure out on my own...

Here's the setup: For the WDW Marathon in January, I decided to see what happens when you finish a marathon block, taper, but instead of running a race, take the fitness and recovery straight into another marathon block. First block went well, even if it got pushed around in the last month because of travel, life, etc, but otherwise a good buildup, good strength work, no injuries, and although hotter'n'hell, I'm pleased. The last long run was Monday at about 3 hours, and that's the target peak for LRs.

But here's the questions... Although a 3 hr long run is tiring, I don't feel like it destroys my week. Two days of easy runs, and I feel pretty good. (I do believe the strength work has made all the difference in tolerating the work load.) My plan was to keep the long runs right there for the next block. Is there a reason not to, and instead start over at 2 hrs and build back up? Second question, is 17 days between long runs costing me anything in adaptation (too much recovery)? I modify Hansons to an 9/8 day cycle instead of 7 day.

[Here's what the cycles look like, and since you've done Hansons, hopefully this will make sense and you'll see what I've done here:
SOS, easy, easy, SOS, easy, easy, LR, easy, easy
SOS, easy, easy, SOS, easy, 10, 10, easy]

And I guess a follow-up question... Your volume of work, when including everything, is up there. Other than good sleep, anything you've found to help you recover?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Here's the setup: For the WDW Marathon in January, I decided to see what happens when you finish a marathon block, taper, but instead of running a race, take the fitness and recovery straight into another marathon block. First block went well, even if it got pushed around in the last month because of travel, life, etc, but otherwise a good buildup, good strength work, no injuries, and although hotter'n'hell, I'm pleased. The last long run was Monday at about 3 hours, and that's the target peak for LRs.

But here's the questions... Although a 3 hr long run is tiring, I don't feel like it destroys my week. Two days of easy runs, and I feel pretty good. (I do believe the strength work has made all the difference in tolerating the work load.) My plan was to keep the long runs right there for the next block. Is there a reason not to, and instead start over at 2 hrs and build back up?

This one sort of goes back to this discussion about stacking training plans:

Training Load Calculations (What happens when the next cycle starts?): Part 3

There are a series of posts that proceed that if you want to get more background info on what you're looking at in the data.

Training Load Calculations on Different Training Plans for Different Fitness Profiles
Training Load Calculations on Different Training Plans for Different Fitness Profiles: Part 2

So in those posts, I calculated the effect of different training plans on different fitness profiles using duration and effort as the main drivers of adaptations and how the body perceives a training plan. The question you're asking was related to the third part, which is what happens when the next cycle starts?

This is where you get into the idea that how much you allow the training load to drop will in part play a role in how the training load will peak in the second plan. If you don't allow it to drop enough, and the next plan is too similar in volume to the first, then you'll find yourself feeling decent at the start, but by the time the race comes up at the end of the second you may feel burnt out. So you can account for this in two ways. Either you can drop the training load by taking some time off or super easy (which in turn is likely to drop your fitness from the peak of the end of the first training plan). Or secondly, you can make sure that the second training plan goes even higher in training load (if you can tolerate it). While the training load data may work mathematically, it doesn't mean it'll work physically. Because there's obviously a load limit and I believe that value is different from person to person.

I find personally, that my body responds the best to training when I live in the theoretical "optimal" training zone as defined by Banister and refined by Coggan. This is a zone where the current training is just different enough from recent previous training to allow the body to adapt to the load without overloading it. Too little of a different stimulus, and you'll see little change/growth during the training plan. When the stimulus is also too similar is when you may feel like you're grinding your gears or not getting anywhere physically despite the work. Too much of a different stimulus, and you may end up injured or burned out.

So, that's a long way to say. What happens if you move from one marathon plan to another consecutively? When it comes to training load, you may find that you burn out by the end of the second one because the load stimulus isn't enough. This load consideration doesn't take into account the physical adaptations. There are some that believe that you can only stress one area of the pace spectrum for about 4-8 weeks before it becomes maximized. Such that you need to vary the type of training you do over the year to maximize your potential in the long term. Too similar of training twice in a row could lead to a loss of physical adaptation (because you've recently trained that area) and stagnation of feelings (because load not too dissimilar).

So to go back to the original question, what's one reason you wouldn't want to do 3 hour runs every weekend in the 2nd plan after having done it in the first? You could lead to a flattening in the second plan for the load. While the load will be higher at the start of the second plan, and thus different than the first's end (because of the rest period between the two). It means the end of the second plan might be too similar to the beginning of the second plan. Thus stagnation in load.

Now Canova is one proponent that you cap out your mileage earlier on (say 10-12 weeks before race day). You then drop the mileage and instead do more intensity in those longer runs. So when he has you do 2.5-3 hr long runs, the pace at which you do it is slower than a traditional LR from Daniels or Hansons. Because of this, you generate a smaller training load despite the run length being relatively long. Canova then advocates after the long slow runs to becomes more specific. Drop the volume, increase the pace, and take longer breaks between hard workouts (similar to your second question).

I can pull some Strava data for an example (while the numerical calculations are not exactly the same as how I do them, they do give a representable picture):

6.5 mile easy - 62 min - 9:35 pace - Effort 21 (0.34 points per min)
14 mile easy LR - 120 min - 8:36 pace - Effort 102 (0.85 points per min)
15.5 mile easy LR - 130 min - 8:20 pace - Effort 136 (1.05 points per min)
20 mile easy LR - 165 min - 8:16 pace - Effort 108 (0.65 points per min)
11 miles mod LR - 87 min - 7:54 pace - Effort 85 (0.97 points per min)
13 miles LR - 100 min - 7:43 pace - Effort 169 (1.69 points per min)
17 miles LR - 130 min - 7:35 pace - Effort 178 (1.37 points per min)
Canova Special Marathon Double - 9.5 miles x 2 - 80+80=160 min - 7:25 pace - Effort 232 (1.45 points per min)

*You'll see some disconnect in pace and effort, but that's due to temperature fluctuation and gains in fitness.

So the total stress of the 20 mile easy LR (while longer) was less at 108 points compared to the harder 13 mile LR which was a whole hour shorter and yet roughly 1.5x more stressful. So if you wanted to maintain 3 hour long runs, then consider making them really slow at the start of the plan and making them faster at the end. That would alleviate some of the training load issues that may arise from stagnation. Just make sure those easy LRs are truly easy.

That doesn't account for the physical toll that running for 3 hours takes on the body. But again, do it slower than a traditional LR and you'll find the physical toll becomes less.

Second question, is 17 days between long runs costing me anything in adaptation (too much recovery)? I modify Hansons to an 9/8 day cycle instead of 7 day.

[Here's what the cycles look like, and since you've done Hansons, hopefully this will make sense and you'll see what I've done here:
SOS, easy, easy, SOS, easy, easy, LR, easy, easy
SOS, easy, easy, SOS, easy, 10, 10, easy]

So the main concern would be that the Hansons plan was written optimally to be achieved in the 7 day window. But that doesn't mean a 7 day window is the correct length for a rotation of a training plan. That's just what is typically most convenient for us given how we as humans set up our schedules (on a weekly 7 day schedule basis). But there's no real connection there physiologically. So that means it can be appropriate to do a different rotating schedule for easy and hard days.

Canova is one that advocates for both a short period of time between bouts of hard days early in the training plan, and then longer time between workouts late in the plan. As much as 4-5 days between hard workouts in the latter half. The reasoning is that with more easy days between bouts of hard, then you can make the hard days really hard. Like way harder than you could achieve if you only had 1-2 easy days between workouts. That's how that Canova Special Block double is achievable despite it being nearly 2.5x more stressful than the nearly equal duration 20 mile LR. More rest time leading into that workout series.

So yes, you can do a 9-10 rotating schedule instead of a 7 day. But can you do that with a Hansons and still reap the same benefits? Probably not. Not the same as if you had done the Hansons plan as written. More likely is that you'll find that the gains will be less than the traditional plan because the load will be adjusted downwards on an average 7 day rotating period. Does this mean you shouldn't do it? No. I know from personal experience in training a particular DIS user that he had done traditional Hansons prior and not met expectations. He was on the older side, and I had theorized that he may not have been recovering well between bouts of hard exercise and so he was stuck in:

Stimulus - > Recovery - > Stimulus -> Recovery

instead of

Stimulus - > Recovery - > Adaptation -> Stimulus - > Recovery - > Adaptation

When you push the body too much and it doesn't recover between, then you don't reap the benefits of the adaptation. So in his case, we moved to a Hansons plan in a 9-10 cycle like you're proposing. And the results were cutting 15-20 min off his PR and reaching his first and only sub-4 hr marathon despite years of prior experience. The key was realizing that while he would make less gains on the 9-10 plan vs the traditional plan, for him the less gains was what he needed because to maximize his potential he needed to come into the race itself not completely worn out.

So ultimately the answer is, yes you're likely to see less gains if you modify the traditional Hansons plan into a 9-10 day plan, but while you may have less gains that may lead to a better race day performance because of being better physically and allowing your body to adapt better to the training.

And I guess a follow-up question... Your volume of work, when including everything, is up there. Other than good sleep, anything you've found to help you recover?

-Eating well
-Stretching
-Hydrating
-Fueling on runs >90 min
-Recovery drink after running
-Moving around during the day as much as possible
-Listening to my body and being flexible on my training when needed (Canova says it in his Valencia Presentation, we're not robots, we can't set a schedule weeks/months in advance and not expect that some changes will need to be made based on how we're feeling, sometimes that means adjustments up and sometimes down).
-Zensah calf sleeves after particularly hard bouts
-Keeping shoes fresh
-And despite you already saying it, sleep. But I find cold sleep helps my body more than a hot sleep.

Hope that helps!

 

[Chasing Dopey]

As someone who subsists on a steady diet of running podcasts, this exposes the complexity of long term training (which is almost never addressed) and the often contradictory information that is out there. For example:

What happens if you move from one marathon plan to another consecutively? When it comes to training load, you may find that you burn out by the end of the second one because the load stimulus isn't enough.

Wait, WHAT?! I had to really think about what you mean by 'burn out'. And sure enough, one of my podcasts just dropped that talked about this, and how burn out is not necessarily over-training. The way they described it, burning out is akin to getting bored (an "I'm over this" feeling), and then it made sense. The analysis you linked to seemed to back up the idea that a simple repeat might be nice and comfortable, however not just lacking stimulus but also unsatisfying. I think it's important in any stretched out plan (maybe even anything over 12 weeks) to test the fitness with a time trial or medium distance race. I'm considering a 10k next weekend.

So the total stress of the 20 mile easy LR (while longer) was less at 108 points compared to the harder 13 mile LR which was a whole hour shorter and yet roughly 1.5x more stressful. So if you wanted to maintain 3 hour long runs, then consider making them really slow at the start of the plan and making them faster at the end. That would alleviate some of the training load issues that may arise from stagnation. Just make sure those easy LRs are truly easy.

This is where Luke and I part ways. My long runs are Zone 2. Period. I've never explored using training load as a gauge, so I'm sticking with getting time on feet and building the aerobic base. Again, running podcasts are quite consistent about two things: the marathon is 99% aerobic and easy running builds that system. I'm sure there is a place for the 'fast' long run for some runners, but I feel like that doesn't apply to me yet. I'm still working on adding cylinders to the engine, but not yet up to tuning it up.

Canova is one that advocates for both a short period of time between bouts of hard days early in the training plan, and then longer time between workouts late in the plan.

That's a new one for me. Interesting. I am concerned about recovery and injury, which is why I like the 2 day gap between harder workouts.

My last marathon was January of '22. I first employed my stretched Hansons for that one, and ran a 3:41 and change. (Previous true race effort was a few years before at 4:06.) I think I was in 3:35 or faster shape, but of course messed up my pacing early. I was consistent with the training, and because of the 2 day gap, was able to really go after the speed/strength and tempo efforts, and stayed healthy throughout. And I'm no spring chicken anymore.

I've got a week or so before I begin the next structured block to decide the next approach. So thank you! A lot of good info in here.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Wait, WHAT?! I had to really think about what you mean by 'burn out'. And sure enough, one of my podcasts just dropped that talked about this, and how burn out is not necessarily over-training. The way they described it, burning out is akin to getting bored (an "I'm over this" feeling), and then it made sense. The analysis you linked to seemed to back up the idea that a simple repeat might be nice and comfortable, however not just lacking stimulus but also unsatisfying. I think it's important in any stretched out plan (maybe even anything over 12 weeks) to test the fitness with a time trial or medium distance race. I'm considering a 10k next weekend.

Yes, and you may remain motivated mentally, but given the repetitiveness your body may not react/adapt to the training and thus feel burned out despite your mental state.

This is where Luke and I part ways. My long runs are Zone 2. Period. I've never explored using training load as a gauge, so I'm sticking with getting time on feet and building the aerobic base. Again, running podcasts are quite consistent about two things: the marathon is 99% aerobic and easy running builds that system. I'm sure there is a place for the 'fast' long run for some runners, but I feel like that doesn't apply to me yet. I'm still working on adding cylinders to the engine, but not yet up to tuning it up.

Right, there's easy running, but a lack of specificity would leave something lacking in the training eventually. The Hansons training plan does have a healthy dose of specificity with their long marathon tempo runs. They also have long runs with fast finishes at marathon tempo in their more advanced plans not found in the book. They usually have a long progression run in the week of LR FF instead of a sustained M Tempo run on Thursdays.

 

[DopeyBadger]

34 Weeks to go until 2024 Non-Cancelled M - Week 1/35

I figured as this training plan's countdown to race week, I would go through my Top 34 race performances to reminisce about my previous accomplishments.




The 34th best performance was the 2016 Disney 5k. I completed the race in 21:49 which was a PR at the time, and had a VDOT of 45.0. Don't have any pictures from that race, so the above is from after the 2016 Disney HM a few days later.

8/28/23-9/3/23
Tues (8/29): 7 miles @ 80% M Tempo (8:56 min/mile, 133 bpm)
Wed (8/30): OFF
Thurs (8/31): 7 miles @ 80% M Tempo (9:01 min/mile, 134 bpm)
Fri (9/1): 7 miles @ 80% M Tempo (8:45 min/mile, 118 bpm) (Treadmill)
Sat (9/2): 7 miles @ 80% M Tempo (8:46 min/mile, 118 bpm) (Treadmill) + LIIFT More - Chest/Biceps
Sun (9/3): 7 miles @ 80% M Tempo (8:48 min/mile, 133 bpm) + LIIFT More - Back/Triceps

Total Run Miles - 35.0 miles
Total Run Time - 5:10 hours
Total Strength Time - 0:54 hours
Total Training Time - 6:04 hours


Tuesday

Conditions - Scattered clouds, Wind 10mph to ?
Start: Temp+Dew = 77°F + 57°F; FL - 77°F
End: Temp+Dew = 74°F + 59°F; FL - 77°F

And so it begins. Nothing really to note. The goal pace was 8:48 and I ran 8:56 pace.



Wednesday

No running today because I had two more pilar cysts removed from my head.




Thursday

Conditions - Clear sky, Wind 10mph to ?
Start: Temp+Dew = 76°F + 55°F; FL - 76°F
End: Temp+Dew = 74°F + 55°F; FL - 76°F

Nothing really to note.



Friday

I had to run on the treadmill because Steph was working late. Nothing too crazy.




Saturday

Ran on the treadmill because our Fantasy Football draft went late on Friday night, and it wasn't worth it to wake up to get the run in before Steph left for work. So treadmill again. Not something I want to do often, but it's early in the plan.

Afterwards I started up again with LIIFT More. I decided to measure my biceps because I had some old measurements just for some comparisons. Back when I was doing 21 Day Fix and 80 Day Obsession in 2018-2019 my biceps measured 11.5-12.75 inches. I measured them this morning and they were 14.5 inches. So that's a pretty measurable difference compared to those other programs. Looking forward to continued gains both physically and with what I can lift.




Sunday

Conditions - Few clouds, Wind 8mph to ?
Start: Temp+Dew = 71°F + 60°F; FL - 71°F
End: Temp+Dew = 77°F + 42°F; FL - 71°F

Got back outside again. Body is starting to feel pretty good when running. Probably because I don't have the leg based weight lifting workouts anymore.

I've got my sister's 2nd wedding next weekend, so looking at another disruption to the regularly scheduled training. But I'll get done what I can.

We've been putting in a ridiculous amount of time on the costumes. Who knew it would take >8 hours to sew a collar and elastic bottom on the costumes. So incredibly hard, but that's to recap another day.

 

[SheHulk]

34 Weeks to go until 2024 Non-Cancelled M - Week 1/35

I figured as this training plan's countdown to race week, I would go through my Top 34 race performances to reminisce about my previous accomplishments.

I love this! Psyched for this buildup.

 

[jmasgat]

I figured as this training plan's countdown to race week, I would go through my Top 34 race performances to reminisce about my previous accomplishments.

So top as in best times? or some other subjective criteria? I was already totally believing and impressed by you sitting down and identifying a list of your 35 "best" running experiences!

 

[DopeyBadger]

I love this! Psyched for this buildup.

Thanks!

So top as in best times? or some other subjective criteria? I was already totally believing and impressed by you sitting down and identifying a list of your 35 "best" running experiences!

Top as in best performances, which doesn't necessarily mean best time per se. I mostly used the VDOT values to sort them, and then I tweaked a little here and there based on my thoughts. Although they are all races, and no training runs were included.

Some of the races (like the 2016 Disney 5k) I have zero recollection of ever running it. I know I did, but since it was in the midst of my third Dopey attempt, I really couldn't tell you anything about it specifically. Although being in 2016 means it was my first 5k attempt after starting the Hansons training methodology in Summer 2015.

 

[jmasgat]

Some of the races (like the 2016 Disney 5k) I have zero recollection of ever running it

It's funny you should say this, because according to Athlinks, my 5k PR is a race I don't really remember doing. It baffles me how this could be, but I have no reason to doubt the result.

 

[avondale]

I would go through my Top 34 race performances to reminisce about my previous accomplishments.

In comparison: I've done 34 races!

It will be interesting to see you count them down.