To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

Total random thought. This remark...

Do I look like a t-rex? I think I might?

made me think of this picture I saw recently.

20110514-100923.jpg


Back to your regularly scheduled #math
 
So this happened...

Screen Shot 2016-12-01 at 8.15.10 PM.png

New 10k PR! Feeling strong and feeling good.

Why is this happening?
-Colder weather
-Taking easy days easier (as they should be)
-I stopped doing leg centric workouts on the Medicine Ball Workouts on Wed and Sat. Only arms and core work, no legs.
-I have been relaxing my body during the run. I've actually been trying to relax my jaw. I watched a video of Usain Bolt and saw how relaxed his face looks. Thus, I'm trying to have a relaxed face and jaw. It almost feels like my bottom lip is vibrating with each step it's so loose. It seems to be working.
-Avoiding excessive camber road imbalance to my legs by not always running on the left side of the road (when safe).
-ETA: Peanut Butter Oatmeal Banana Protein Bars
 
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Total random thought. This remark...



made me think of this picture I saw recently.

20110514-100923.jpg


Back to your regularly scheduled #math

LOL! :rotfl2:

I'm at work (and don't typically look at stats or graphs here), so will attempt to look at this later tonight with a glass of wine. I've been following along with your heart rate stats, but selfishly felt morose over my elevated HR and didn't comment. But thrilled with your improvements!

Another thought. Is your basis for wanting to change your cadence/stride because of the video you saw from your HM that your husband took? I have a project for you if this is the sole reason. The next time you run a speed session (or a really fast run) have your husband film you again. It would be interesting to see if at mile pace or 3k pace whether you see the same quick shuffle, or if you naturally have more of the kick you think you need. The key is to run what comes natural and not try to force something during this run. Question is what pace should you run? Try running as fast as you can for 100-400m, but when doing it you have to keep your face completely relaxed. Jaw, cheeks, ears, lips, etc. should all feel relaxed. If you tense up too much, then slow down. Let's see what the form looks like then.

I have another idea about all of this in general, but I'll save my conclusions for later.
 
Congrats on the PRs! So exciting! Happy to see that cold weather is a factor, since the freezing temps might help me run my "Last Call" half marathon a little faster this weekend! Will try relaxing, but I'm not very good at that. :)
 


So unfortunately this small glass of wine is hitting me harder than expected, but in general I see that you've been able to both increase your stride as well as your cadence as your pace increases. Looking at some of your other data points, it seems that as you're reaching the sweet spot of stride length and cadence, you're running more efficiently and not working as hard (Pace vs HR). You'll be hard pressed to get a more nuanced evaluation from me at the moment. I'll admit that rudimentary stats and reading journal articles skeptically was part of my education, but I shirked them to focus on other components, so I'm not as skilled as I'd like. So making the graph you suggested is outside of my purview.

Questions I have: regarding the pace vs hr graph, you mention data is taken from steady state points - what does that mean exactly? Do you average it over an easy run/LR/etc? What do you think about cardiac drift near the end of the run? Your previous posts mention that your more recent runs haven't seen much, but perhaps earlier in your running career there was a more pronounced drift, do you think that averaging it accounts for cardiac health/efficiency? Also looking at your average pace based on the different training programs: where did you take your average pace from? Are they from LRs or just averaged in general? Have all your training programs been 80/20? Do you account for warm up and cool down? I'm sure this was probably mentioned when you first showed the graph.

I just saw your most recent post about your run, congrats! But, what about your stride length tho!?!

So I ran my tempo run today basically blind. I just knew I wanted to finish faster than when I started and I hit 2/5 intervals as the last 3 were too fast and perhaps explains my higher HR at the end. I'm just happy I wasn't redlining into 200s. I'll try to keep this broad to not bore everyone and PM you with more specific details, but I was able to increase my stride by about 0.1 and my cadence only dropped by 5 spm. My pace increased and my HR was about the same as at the end of my last 4 mi tempo at a slower pace. Regarding my HR, I found it has actually improved over my last training cycle with my easy runs in zone 1-2 but at a slightly higher pace than previous. Initially I thought I had improved physically, but now I attribute it to the cold.

Sadly yes, vanity is one of the reasons why I wanted to change my gait a bit. My husband took a picture of me running as I was passing the woman next to me and she had a gorgeous stride (she later found me after the race to chat and she ended up placing in her division). I did make peace with my form, but after asking that expert on lifehacker about my cadence and her recommendations and some of the posts on the running thread about gazelle running, I thought that maybe changing to gazellier form would improve my pace with less effort. I would ask my husband to film me again, but he sort of actively discourages my running, so I prefer not to. LOL. Let me rephrase, he does not hinder, but he does not encourage either. If I ever hit the tracks again, I could try to set up my iphone to record me. I'm curious what my form is at higher speeds. Looking at pics from my last 5k, I think I let the "gazelle" form go and was just hanging on for dear life.

ETA: not sure how tense my form is. The picture in my avatar is my typical running form. I try to watch my form via my shadow and sometimes will try to bring my arms lower to my waist. With this new foray into "gazelle" running, I've noticed I'm "chicken winging" it. So I have a ways to go. Will say that my jaw always tenses as I'm running (I have issues with TMJ in general - ugh, my body is falling apart) so actively try to release it as I'm running.
 
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Congrats on the PRs! So exciting! Happy to see that cold weather is a factor, since the freezing temps might help me run my "Last Call" half marathon a little faster this weekend! Will try relaxing, but I'm not very good at that. :)

Thanks! I love running in the cold. The 35-45 range is my definite wheel-house. Bummer that I decided not to do "Last Call" this year. I've done it the last two, but I wanted to focus on training because of the October marathon mishap. Could have been a Team DIS meet up. My fingers will be crossed for you on Sunday morning because we're looking at our first snow Sunday morning per weather underground of 1-3 inches. If you've never run "Last Call" before (and the snow holds off), there is a very slight elevation increase from miles 2-6. It's so slight you don't even really know you're doing it live. But once you hit the turnaround, you literally fly. So my advice is to hold back on the effort just a touch until the turnaround. And then use that very slight downhill for the next few miles to absolutely crush it!
 
Now that's a reply. I'd say if this a reply on a "harder than expected glass of wine", then I'm sure we'll find a character limit soon on a day with even less wine (I kid, I kid...) We all know if anyone will find a character limit on this site it will be me. Because I go on and on and on and on... Alright to actually get to it now.

So unfortunately this small glass of wine is hitting me harder than expected, but in general I see that you've been able to both increase your stride as well as your cadence as your pace increases. Looking at some of your other data points, it seems that as you're reaching the sweet spot of stride length and cadence, you're running more efficiently and not working as hard (Pace vs HR). You'll be hard pressed to get a more nuanced evaluation from me at the moment. I'll admit that rudimentary stats and reading journal articles skeptically was part of my education, but I shirked them to focus on other components, so I'm not as skilled as I'd like. So making the graph you suggested is outside of my purview.

I agree with your concept that as pace increases as does cadence and stride length. If you send me a PM with your email I can provide you with an excel file that has all the necessary tools to make a matching HR vs Pace graph like mine. I have had a few other readers recently request this file so that they could also make a similar graph but without having to do any of the "excel" stuff (this goes for any reader that would like this file, just PM me your email and it's yours).

But as for the:
Looking at some of your other data points, it seems that as you're reaching the sweet spot of stride length and cadence, you're running more efficiently and not working as hard (Pace vs HR).

I'll save responding to that until I write up my conclusions based on these graphs.

regarding the pace vs hr graph, you mention data is taken from steady state points - what does that mean exactly?

Steady state from a pace perspective. If the intent of the run is a WU + Tempo + CD, then I average the WU HR and pace together to get a value. I then average the Tempo HR and pace together separately. So, "steady state" is defined merely as the intent of the run was a steady pace, not a dramatically different pace of intervals averaged together. So going from a 7:30 to 7:10 is ok to average. But going from a 10:00 to a 7:00 isn't wise to average.

Do you average it over an easy run/LR/etc?

Long version: Here
Short version: Every run I take data from if I find it to be an "appropriate measure of my fitness". This isn't to say if I have a "bad" run I throw out the data. But if there are extenuating weather circumstances or injury that would alter the data from "normal" then it wouldn't be useful, unless I were projecting to an "abnormal" race conditions.

What do you think about cardiac drift near the end of the run?

It's natural. It's the bodies response to working hard. It doesn't have to be because of increased effort, pace, or breathing. It merely means the heart is working harder to maintain the same pace. It could be because it's pumping less blood, or it could be a function of core body temp. Although, I do believe that the stronger your heart gets (and the more endurance you gain) the less cardiac drift you see. In the end though, measure your runs less by HR and more by effort because I believe effort is the gold standard. That's to say if I go out and train I won't look at my HR during the run because there are too many variables that can effect a measure mid-run. But averaging all of those miles together smooths out the data. You might cut yourself short if say your M Tempo should be 152 based on historical data, but you see a 162 mid-run. Doesn't mean the 162 is bad because it's not 152, it just means maybe there were some 142s to balance it out. Wait till the run is over to use the HR data.

Your previous posts mention that your more recent runs haven't seen much, but perhaps earlier in your running career there was a more pronounced drift, do you think that averaging it accounts for cardiac health/efficiency?

I did a lot of searching in my past Garmin data, and surprisingly I had a hard time finding some runs with cardiac drift. It doesn't appear since I've gotten the monitor in Dec 2015 that I have seen it much. Or at least I couldn't easily find it. However, this is the Disney marathon in 2014.

Screen Shot 2016-12-02 at 9.04.49 AM.png

HR on top and pace on bottom. And while the HR doesn't drift a ton, you can see the pace is dropping off. So the same HR doesn't equal the same pace and thus there is some drift there, it's just masked by the reduced pace.

I do think taking the average over the entire duration of the run is the best strategy if evaluating it for a HR vs pace graph. This "smooths" out the data for the purpose of elevation changes as well as cardiac drift. Both of these things will continue to occur on race day, and thus should be taken into account if building a data base of HR vs pace for the purpose of seeing improvements and building a prediction calculator.

Also looking at your average pace based on the different training programs: where did you take your average pace from?

The "pace chart" are my race times over the timeline. So I decided to use min/mile rather than actual time to complete a distance so that all of the data could fit easily on the same graph. It also means that if I were to put a 2:00 HM and 4:00 M on the same graph it would show that I used to be able to run a 9:09 min/mile for 13.1 miles and now for 26.2 miles. Whereas, with 2:00 and 4:00 you wouldn't intuitively see that improvement. So these data points represent my completed official races.

Have all your training programs been 80/20?

Long Answer: Here
Short Answer: No, the 80/20 (easy%/hard%) methodology definitely didn't start until Hansons. The Galloway plan as designed can be 80/20 if you follow it appropriately. However, when I followed it early on in my running career I didn't follow the instructions. I didn't run/walk. I didn't walk. I didn't pace the long run appropriately. Essentially other than the mileage I didn't follow his actual plan. So the failure wasn't his as much as it was mine. The "FIRST" plan is no where close to 80/20 and I can't recommend that plan to anyone. But once I grasped the concepts of Hansons, running, etc. then I started to buy into the 80/20 concept as well as the idea of balance (long run <35% weekly mileage) amongst other new philosophies. I attribute my improvement to really understanding the "why" behind running training philosophies that allowed me to better critically evaluate training plans.

I just saw your most recent post about your run, congrats! But, what about your stride length tho!?!

Thanks! Here you go! The first 13 intervals are miles, and the last one is 0.15 miles.

Screen Shot 2016-12-02 at 9.19.21 AM.png

Remember I do a three mile loop starting with the 5th mile being equal. Thus, the best comparison of my run over time is 7:01 v 7:02 v 7:05 and 154 v 153 v 152 and 186 v 188 v 186 and 1.23 v 1.22 v 1.22. These three intervals are almost (off by 0.1 miles) exactly the same for all conditions under consideration.

So I ran my tempo run today basically blind. I just knew I wanted to finish faster than when I started and I hit 2/5 intervals as the last 3 were too fast and perhaps explains my higher HR at the end. I'm just happy I wasn't redlining into 200s. I'll try to keep this broad to not bore everyone and PM you with more specific details, but I was able to increase my stride by about 0.1 and my cadence only dropped by 5 spm. My pace increased and my HR was about the same as at the end of my last 4 mi tempo at a slower pace.

Here are three of your previous runs:

Screen Shot 2016-12-02 at 9.23.18 AM.png

Screen Shot 2016-12-02 at 9.32.00 AM.png


Screen Shot 2016-12-02 at 9.24.24 AM.png


You can see that you acquired different paces using different strategies during the run. The first two examples show me someone maintaining cadence and increasing stride length over the duration of the run. You body to maintain or get faster is manipulating your stride length. The first example was this week's tempo. The second example was from Sept 1, 2016. But look at the HR data. It would appear that it's slightly better in run 1 then run 2. Given similar HR yet faster paces. Some may be weather. Some may not. It warrants further looking into for you to see the difference.

The third example is you 5k race (faulty HR data). You can see your cadence stays the same, but your stride length decreases. Why does your stride decrease? Likely because you are becoming more tired and fatigued. I'll post my other thoughts on this in my conclusion post upcoming.

So the question to your statement would be, is the improvement between your last tempo to this tempo due to gait changes, or do to a slight improvement in fitness?

Regarding my HR, I found it has actually improved over my last training cycle with my easy runs in zone 1-2 but at a slightly higher pace than previous. Initially I thought I had improved physically, but now I attribute it to the cold.

Could be cold. Could be improvement. Hard to say unless you dive more in-depth in the data. I'd say though that the improvements will be best seen over long periods of time. Months and years of data.

Sadly yes, vanity is one of the reasons why I wanted to change my gait a bit.

I can understand that. So if looking like a beautiful gazelle runner came at the cost of being slower, or getting injured would it be worth it? I'm not saying it will happen. But you did beat this woman (or at least you passed her), so maybe she thought to herself afterwards, man I wish I could have run as fast as that glider. She was so fast!

My husband took a picture of me running as I was passing the woman next to me and she had a gorgeous stride (she later found me after the race to chat and she ended up placing in her division). I did make peace with my form, but after asking that expert on lifehacker about my cadence and her recommendations and some of the posts on the running thread about gazelle running, I thought that maybe changing to gazellier form would improve my pace with less effort.

It's possible it might. In my opinion, I'd say that's probably item 10 on a list of reasons why you can't run faster with less effort. I believe there are probably other avenues to make you faster without the risk of changing too much in your form intentionally. As I've said before though, maybe that other woman "had" to be a gazelle at that pace to be able to do it, but your necessary "gazelle" pace is much faster than hers. The reason you don't currently gazelle may not be because you can't, it might be because you don't have to at your current pace yet. Remember, I did find a personal story from a female that ran a marathon as a "glider" in 2:50:00 (6:29 min/mile). So the "glider" style did not prevent her from running a 6:29 for 26.2 miles. Just one example, but it does show that being a gazelle is not the end all be all.

I would ask my husband to film me again, but he sort of actively discourages my running, so I prefer not to. LOL. Let me rephrase, he does not hinder, but he does not encourage either. If I ever hit the tracks again, I could try to set up my iphone to record me. I'm curious what my form is at higher speeds. Looking at pics from my last 5k, I think I let the "gazelle" form go and was just hanging on for dear life.

I can understand. I'll bet you'll find that you do have that "gazelle" look at a much faster pace. Yea, there is definitely a point where form will break down and you'll be in the injury zone. Hence, my recommendation on the loose jaw. I have to believe if you maintain a relaxed jaw that you have to maintain a reasonably good running form throughout, other than maybe overstriding.

ETA: not sure how tense my form is. The picture in my avatar is my typical running form. I try to watch my form via my shadow and sometimes will try to bring my arms lower to my waist. With this new foray into "gazelle" running, I've noticed I'm "chicken winging" it. So I have a ways to go. Will say that my jaw always tenses as I'm running (I have issues with TMJ in general - ugh, my body is falling apart) so actively try to release it as I'm running.

Picture and shadows are tough because they're just a snapshot and possibly not the whole story. Give the loose jaw theory a try and see if it works for you on your next run.
 


Cadence, Stride Length, Gait and Pace: The Great Debate

So I provided a data set yesterday of my cadence, stride, and pace over time along with HR v Pace and Official race times over time to see what conclusions readers would draw from the data. See here for the original post.

The question I came into this experiment was, do I need to change my cadence/stride/gait to be faster?

To start off, when I started creating training plans for others I provided the following instructions on foot strike:

"Foot strike - The general recommendation is to have about 180 steps per minute or more. To have these many steps per minute, it forces you to take smaller, shorter strides and quicker foot movements. You can measure this with a phone app metronome or have someone watch you run and count. This is most important during the SPEED/TEMPO sessions. Foot strike during the easy running (LR or EA) is still important for reducing injury risk by making sure it is light-footed."

This was provided to a reader on 11/28/15.

My last instructions were:

"Foot strike - The general recommendation is to have about 180 steps per minute or more. To have this many steps per minute, it forces you to take smaller, shorter strides and quicker foot movements. You can measure this with a phone app metronome or have someone watch you run and count. Your Garmin might measure this (dependent on which you have). This is most important during the STRENGTH sessions. Foot strike during the easy running (LR or EA) is still important for reducing injury risk by making sure it is light-footed. Don't force this too much. Gradually over time find your happy place for cadence with a nice quick stride. Having your foot fall underneath your torso is the most important part because overstriding tends to lead to injuries."

This was provided to a reader on 9/27/16.

This is provided to show that my opinion and instructions can and will change over time. More time = more data = new training philosophies.

So to start, where did the 180 steps per minute recommendation come from? Is it like many other running philosophies handed down over time with no basis in anything other than observation (like running 20 miles for marathon training)? Is it merely based on elites which may or may not be applicable in our training ideals (like running 20 miles for marathon training)?

In 1984, Coach Jack Daniels was evaluating the cadence of elite runners in the Olympics. He noted that 45/46 runners had a cadence of 180 or more. These elite athletes were Olympic quality and competing in the events from the 800m and up. These people are fast! Daniels also noted that none of his recreational runners had a cadence above 180 and that most were at 150-170. And thus, the idea was born that to run like an elite, we should all be running at 180 steps per minute or more. Sometimes this story was misquoted as it was passed around and became we should all run at 180 steps per minute.

So does it make sense? Should we be running 180 steps per minute like the elites? Well now that we have our handy dandy data we can see what it says...

Screen Shot 2016-12-02 at 10.54.51 AM.png

The relationship between pace vs (cadence x stride) is clear. In fact, it's downright science. Take the number of steps per minute and the distance they cover and use 1.0 miles as a marker and you get pace (min/mile). Simple math. Which means that cadence x stride is what determines pace. If I were to suggest a cadence of 180 steps per minute to a 7:30 min/mile runner, then the stride would be 1.19 meters. If I were to suggest a cadence of 180 steps per minute to a 15:00 min/mile runner, then the stride would be 0.59 meters.

I think you can see where this starts to break down. The key isn't 180 steps per minute as I wouldn't suggest a 15:00 min/mile keep their stride to 0.59 meters. Rather that person should worry about running a 15:00 min/mile comfortably and the cadence and stride will be what they are.

I think the real key in the suggestion of 180 steps per minute doesn't lie in the cadence itself. In lies, truly in the footfall location. It doesn't matter if you're heel, fore, or mid striker. What matters is if you're an over strider. If you find your foot falling outside the torso of your body. Think back to the days of physics. Every action has an equal reaction. So if you put 400 pounds of force into the ground, then the ground will put 400 pounds back into your foot (simply put, ignoring friction, heat, sound, etc.) Thus, how your foot "receives and distributes" that force is reliant on where your foot is in relation to the ground when it makes contact. The foot underneath your torso will distribute the force more evenly throughout your leg. Whereas, the force when the foot is outside the torso will not distribute evenly and will be more focused locally in the lower leg. Thus, this force leads to muscle and bone damage in the lower leg.

I also think the suggestion of increasing cadence to 180 doesn't lie in the 180 but in the concept in getting faster. You can see the relationship of cadence and stride are interrelated in creating pace. If you increase one and not the other, then you get faster. If you increase both, then you get even faster. If you decrease one and increase the other, you may very well find yourself at the same speed, slower, or faster. So in an ideal situation you increase both your cadence and your stride to run faster. But the caveat to increasing your stride length is you don't want to do it at the expense of over striding and increasing the risk for injury.

For example:
Cadence x Stride = Pace
2 x 2 = 4

Inc Cadence x Stride = Inc Pace
3 x 2 = 6

Cadence x Inc Stride = Inc Pace
2 x 3 = 6

Dec Cadence x Inc Stride = ??? Pace
1 x 3 = 3? or 1.5 x 3 = 4.5? or 0.5 x 5 = 2.5?

Inc Cadence x Inc Stride = Inc Pace
3 x 3 =9

So the idea of "recommending 180 steps per minute" should be really stated as "run with what feels like a natural cadence and with your foot always falling underneath your torso". This will make you faster and prevent injury at the same time. The number is irrelevant. As you get faster, your cadence and stride will either both increase or one will increase on its own.

So this is where I come back to my data set.

I have run really really really fast twice in my data collection life. Both of these instances came from end of the race sprints. During the Madison Mini HM in 2015, I had a sprint to the finish. From the brief data, I ran a 4:57 min/mile using 216 spm which equates to a stride length of 1.51 meters.

Screen Shot 2016-12-02 at 12.43.31 PM.png

During the Hot2Trot 10k in 2016, I had a sprint to the finish race for 3rd place. From the brief data collected, I ran a 5:18 min/mile using 211 spm which equates to a stride length of 1.44 meters.

Screen Shot 2016-12-02 at 11.11.06 AM.png

In both these cases, I ran fast. Like really fast. I ran a 4:57 min/mile or a 5:18 min/mile. While it was only for a brief moment, my body figured out how to do it. By doing a cadence of 211-216 and a stride length of 1.44-1.51 meters. So my form wasn't necessarily my limiting factor. Outside of a video, I don't know whether I was over striding to accomplish these paces, but what I do know is I did them. But if I could do them momentarily, why couldn't I continue to do them? Surely it wasn't my form holding me back?

So that brings me back to the data set I showed earlier. From Dec 15- Jan 15 (blue dots) my strategy was different. I had a longer stride and slower cadence. Now my strategy has changed to a faster cadence and a shorter stride. That's to say if you look at the data from Feb 2015 through Nov 2016 you don't see much of a difference. Maybe a hint, but nothing dramatic. Most of the red dots, green dots, and purple triangles are intermixed. However, compare the HR stats and the race time stats and there is a huge difference between Feb 2015 to Nov 2016.

In Feb 2015 my PRs were
5k - 23:36
10k - 49:49
HM - 1:53:18
M - 4:20:34

In Nov 2016 my PRs are
5k - 21:49 (est. 19:21)
10k - 44:23 (est. 40:29)
HM - 1:38:49 (est. 1:28:26)
M - 3:23:43 (est. 3:09:50)

And my HR stats based on different paces were
Pace - Feb vs Nov
10:00 - 148 vs 126
9:30 - 150 vs 127
9:00 - 154 vs 130
8:30 - 159 vs 136
8:00 - 164 vs 138
7:30 - 168 vs 146

So during the timeframe of Feb 2015 to Nov 2016, my cadence and stride length used to run certain paces didn't really change that much. But my HR relative to certain paces and my race times changed dramatically. This would suggest in of itself that cadence and stride length played a minimal to no role in my ability to race faster and have a lower HR at matching pace. Or said another way, there are a multitude of other things you should try to improve outside of cadence and stride length that will likely improve your racing and HR far more than they will.

So, my suggestion is to improve cadence to the point at which you are no longer over striding. This will make you faster and reduce injury. But don't force to continue increasing cadence at paces that don't need it by shortening your stride length. If you run a 15:00 min/mile with a cadence of 150, that very well may be appropriate for that speed given the need for reducing over striding. As you continue to increase your cadence the faster you will get. By increasing your cadence you very likely are spending less time on the ground. Less time on the ground = more time in the air without any forces acting on you. This means more power focused into each step rather than in other directions other than forward. It's also why I am a big proponent of sound and foot strike. Sound is generated by force (equal forces thing again). That means if two forces both hit the same surface but one does so with less sound then it does so with less loss of energy. Less loss of energy means more energy return with each step and thus you run faster. So light quick feet are the best (as long as it doesn't cause much vertical bounce, because then you're just wasting energy in a new plane).

But don't try to manually increase stride length. By doing so you may actually just be over striding. Manually increasing stride length during a run is not the same as naturally increasing your stride length. I almost feel there are two "stride lengths". There's the distance in which you try to manually put your foot out to increase distance. And then there's the stride which occurs naturally, but that increase in length when you put more power underneath each step. So if you want to increase stride length, don't do it manually during a run. Instead work on exercises that will put more power into your steps. And where does power come from?

Well there is endurance power. The power to continue to run at fast paces. This is where I attribute nearly 100% of my ability to race faster and train with a lower HR. Again going back to the data shown earlier, I was capable of running a 6:30-7:00 min/mile back in early 2015 just for 0.1 miles. Now I can run that for several miles (did 7:11 for 9 last night). So that comes from endurance power. Nothing changed from my stride to enable that pace for duration. It was simply increasing your endurance. More specifically your powerhouse of the leg, the mitochondria. These little guys will enable you to run further faster. And how do you build mitochondria? With smart training built around concepts like relative easy paced training, periodization, and balance. By building the mitochondria and getting stronger and more endurance in the legs it takes less effort to run a certain pace. Less effort at a certain pace = lower HR = going further faster! None of which is directly tied with changing cadence or stride, but ancillary connected.

You can also consider running hills or sprints. Running hills doesn't manually change your stride, but what it does do is force your body to adapt to creating more power with each step. You have to sprint up a hill, then your body better darn well figure out how. So when you aren't running up a hill anymore but you still have the same available power per step, then your stride length will increase. It won't increase because you're reaching further out. It will increase because of the extra strength or power behind each step.

So in conclusion, only increase your cadence to the point that it reduces over striding. Don't worry about increasing your stride length manually during running, but focus on building endurance and power through actual exercises like endurance training and possibly hill work (although I'll say that outside of running hills on a regular basis I have not done any actual "hill training" to get from where I was to where I am)

Alright, that's all I got. Let's hear those opinions. How did I do? Did I get it right or did I miss the mark? Is there something I might be missing? Some role that I'm not evaluating correctly?
 
Argh, right when I was gearing up to post a reply, you post your conclusions!


Now that's a reply. I'd say if this a reply on a "harder than expected glass of wine", then I'm sure we'll find a character limit soon on a day with even less wine (I kid, I kid...) We all know if anyone will find a character limit on this site it will be me. Because I go on and on and on and on... Alright to actually get to it now.

Yes, I'm wordy! You should see emails I send to my friends, novelizations basically. I'm sure they just ignore them! :P

Long version: Here
Long Answer: Here

I knew there was a method section!


Cadence, Stride Length, Gait and Pace: The Great Debate


Alright, that's all I got. Let's hear those opinions. How did I do? Did I get it right or did I miss the mark? Is there something I might be missing? Some role that I'm not evaluating correctly?

This response is a little on the fly, so won't be fully formed or articulate: speaking of the "glider" who runs a 2:52 marathon, she seems more like an anecdotal outlier. For running, there's general rules, but obviously everyone is different. I agree that especially with easy runs, you should just let your body do what's natural and allow cadence/stride to work themselves out. I wonder though about a high cadence (e.g. 210+) for a say a 7:10-7:30 pace seems like it would be pretty inefficient, no? Like a lot of leg turnover to get to that pace. You're hitting the ground more frequently, but with less impact than someone with say a 190 cadence. I just feel like I could be going faster with a slightly different stride. I agree that overstriding would be a recipe for disaster, so the only difference I've been doing is telling myself to land with my feet directly under me. It doesn't feel like a big or difficult change in my gait and I just let me cadence go wherever it wants to achieve the pace I want. Not sure exactly where my feet were landing beforehand but probably very similar to the giselle vs glider video. With this sort of movement, I think you lose a little energy in the Vy department, but make up for it in the increase in Vx. I feel like endurance is a different topic, although obviously related Definitely running higher mileage (without increasing injury risk) and adding hills etc help increase mitochondria and the different muscle fibers needed for different speeds (not mentioning LT etc) which explains HR and maintaining higher pace for a longer period of time. However, what if you have 2 athletes with the same endurance with the same training program with perhaps an inefficient running style who just wants a little boost without increasing running mileage, don't you think playing with stride length / cadence would help?

I should have broken that giant paragraph up, but there's no coherent thought .... so you'll just have to try to parse through it! Sorry!
 
Okay, there is a lot of information above, but here are my initial thoughts...

Based on this chart, it would appear the "stride" is calculated by your pace and cadence measured by the GPS watch.

To be technical, I think Garmin calculates stride by taking distance and cadence (not pace and cadence). If you are using the GPS, Garmin infers pace by using distance and time.

You know after thinking about it and evaluating the data (and this isn't specifically about my data set, so keep drawing conclusions readers). You don't want to decrease your cadence (or at least in my opinion) if it isn't in of itself causing any issues. If you decrease your cadence, and increase your stride length, you'll still be at the same speed. You want to maintain your cadence and increase your stride length. That will make you faster. And the graph of Pace vs (Cadence x Stride) bears that out. I'd actually argue your cadence is a gift. Look how people would love to be able to do 200 spm. If you could combine your 200 spm with a slightly longer stride, then you could be unstoppable.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this conclusion. In the end, you may not want to decrease your cadence, but I think you should tinker with it and find what works best. At a specific speed, there is likely a optimal cadence that minimizes your effort at that pace. This may be slightly different for each of us (even if we are running at the same pace).

Regarding Dr. Jack Daniel's study, it was very surprising (and unexpected) when he originally found that almost all the elite runners ran at about a cadence of 180. He really did expect to see more variability. My translation of his data (and I think he has stated similarly) is that, at a ~5:00/mi pace, there is likely an efficiency of effort expended at about a 180 cadence. It would be tough to argue otherwise since none of the runners at that time were trying to achieve a specific cadence, so why did their bodies naturally fall into the same cadence? Again, I think it comes down to efficiency.

If you think about it like this, your cadence basically describes the amount of time you are "in the air." The higher the cadence (at the same pace), the less time you are in the air before the next foot strike. So, if you have a low cadence, you will be in the air for a longer amount of time between foot strikes which means that you had to push off harder (more energy). This usually also manifests itself as high vertical oscillation since you have to "jump" higher to get more air time. Higher vertical oscillation is thought of as wasted energy. If you speed up your cadence (but not your pace), two offsetting energy-related things are happening: (i) you don't have to push up as much since you will be off the ground for less time (saves energy), but (ii) you will now be taking more steps per mile. So, although each step takes less energy, you are adding more steps per mile which adds energy. In the end, there is likely some perfect balance (again, at a given pace) that will minimize total energy used per mile. The trick is finding it.

I would think the best way to find it would be to try a couple different cadence levels on your tempo runs. Then, use your HR to determine which cadence took less effort (lower HR) at the same tempo pace. I picked tempo pace since this is basically race pace, and therefore, the pace you want to be most efficient at.

What do you think about cardiac drift near the end of the run?

I did a lot of searching in my past Garmin data, and surprisingly I had a hard time finding some runs with cardiac drift.

Regarding cardiac drift, I think we are all very different on this one. I have been running for almost 30 years, and some of those years, I was in really good shape, but I have ALWAYS had cardiac drift. However, I have known others who have an almost unbelievable consistent HR at a constant running pace. I tried HR-based training a few times over the years, and it never works for me because of this drift. To maintain a specific HR, I would have to constantly slow down over a run (regardless of how easy the pace is).

I think the real key in the suggestion of 180 steps per minute doesn't lie in the cadence itself. In lies, truly in the footfall location. It doesn't matter if you're heel, fore, or mid striker. What matters is if you're an over strider. If you find your foot falling outside the torso of your body. Think back to the days of physics. Every action has an equal reaction. So if you put 400 pounds of force into the ground, then the ground will put 400 pounds back into your foot (simply put, ignoring friction, heat, sound, etc.) Thus, how your foot "receives and distributes" that force is reliant on where your foot is in relation to the ground when it makes contact. The foot underneath your torso will distribute the force more evenly throughout your leg. Whereas, the force when the foot is outside the torso will not distribute evenly and will be more focused locally in the lower leg. Thus, this force leads to muscle and bone damage in the lower leg.

Completely agree with this! The biggest problem with a slower cadence is the potential for over-striding. Regardless of your cadence, you need to ensure your foot strike is at or behind your center of gravity (somewhere in the torso region). A higher cadence is safer in regards to over-striding.

So light quick feet are the best (as long as it doesn't cause much vertical bounce, because then you're just wasting energy in a new plane).

As mentioned in my long-winded discussion of cadence above, I think there is higher vertical oscillation ("bounce") with lower cadence, not higher cadence since you have to push up more since you will be "in the air" longer.
 
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If you think about it like this, your cadence basically describes the amount of time you are "in the air." The higher the cadence (at the same pace), the less time you are in the air before the next foot strike. So, if you have a low cadence, you will be in the air for a longer amount of time between foot strikes which means that you had to push off harder (more energy). This usually also manifests itself as high vertical oscillation since you have to "jump" higher to get more air time. Higher vertical oscillation is thought of as wasted energy. If you speed up your cadence (but not your pace), two offsetting energy-related things are happening: (i) you don't have to push up as much since you will be off the ground for less time (saves energy), but (ii) you will now be taking more steps per mile. So, although each step takes less energy, you are adding more steps per mile which adds energy. In the end, there is likely some perfect balance (again, at a given pace) that will minimize total energy used per mile. The trick is finding it.


I think you articulated well something I thinking. <---I'm no good with words, clearly.
 
Yes, I'm wordy! You should see emails I send to my friends, novelizations basically. I'm sure they just ignore them! :P

:rotfl2:

I knew there was a method section!

:thumbsup2

This response is a little on the fly, so won't be fully formed or articulate: speaking of the "glider" who runs a 2:52 marathon, she seems more like an anecdotal outlier.

Agreed. It isn't to say everyone who runs a 2:50 can glide or gazelle. Only that there is at least one example of someone who is a glider at that pace. So, in theory it's possible to be a glider and still be that fast. Does that mean you and I would be gliders at that pace? Absolutely not. It just means it's possible. Although I'll go back to my original post in the running thread and say that I believe there is probably a pace at which all of us individually switch from glider to gazelle. For some, that could be a 9:00 min/mile. For others, a 6:00 min/mile. For others, they may only be gazelle all the time. For others, there may be other limiting factors as to why they will always be a glider or a gazelle.

For running, there's general rules, but obviously everyone is different.

Agreed.

I agree that especially with easy runs, you should just let your body do what's natural and allow cadence/stride to work themselves out.

Agreed.

I wonder though about a high cadence (e.g. 210+) for a say a 7:10-7:30 pace seems like it would be pretty inefficient, no? Like a lot of leg turnover to get to that pace. You're hitting the ground more frequently, but with less impact than someone with say a 190 cadence. I just feel like I could be going faster with a slightly different stride.

It's possible. But maybe the reason you ended up at 210 for a 7:10 is because you haven't built enough leg strength to run a cadence of 190 at 7:10 for a long duration. Cadence of 210 is a 1.07m stride, whereas a 190 is a 1.18m stride. It's possible that as long as you're not over striding that you'll find dropping down to 190 will benefit your speed. You may also find that you don't have enough energy to run a 190 for 13.1 miles because each step requires more power. Does the faster cadence or longer stride require less overall energy? I'm not sure how to answer that. I'll be interested to see what happens.

I agree that overstriding would be a recipe for disaster, so the only difference I've been doing is telling myself to land with my feet directly under me.

Agreed.

It doesn't feel like a big or difficult change in my gait and I just let me cadence go wherever it wants to achieve the pace I want.

Sounds about right to me.

Not sure exactly where my feet were landing beforehand but probably very similar to the giselle vs glider video.

Sounds good.

With this sort of movement, I think you lose a little energy in the Vy department, but make up for it in the increase in Vx.

That's the hope.

I feel like endurance is a different topic, although obviously related Definitely running higher mileage (without increasing injury risk) and adding hills etc help increase mitochondria and the different muscle fibers needed for different speeds (not mentioning LT etc) which explains HR and maintaining higher pace for a longer period of time.

I guess that was my point. I'll be interested to see what happens and how much of a dramatic effect you see in your progress. I can't and shouldn't say that changing your cadence and stride won't have any effect. But just looking at my data set (and again it's an n=1), I would conclude there are many other things that provide that dramatic improvement in race times someone would be looking for. But again, I'll be interested to see what happens. Having more data is always helpful to me.

However, what if you have 2 athletes with the same endurance with the same training program with perhaps an inefficient running style who just wants a little boost without increasing running mileage, don't you think playing with stride length / cadence would help?

It's possible. If all that person is looking for is a little boost, then I would agree that stride/cadence could provide that. With this statement I see your angle. You're not proposing that this will drop your race time significantly. But rather, if it makes you 20 sec faster (random estimate) on a HM, you'll take that minimal improvement without having to make any changes to your training plan. I can see and agree with that line of thought.

I should have broken that giant paragraph up, but there's no coherent thought .... so you'll just have to try to parse through it! Sorry!

I think I got through it and it made sense to me!
 
So light quick feet are the best (as long as it doesn't cause much vertical bounce, because then you're just wasting energy in a new plane).
This! I videotaped high school cross country runners for over 10 years so saw so many forms & yes quick feet is the best in my opinion too. Some of those kids bounced so much it reminded me of Mario jumping where he wiggles his feet in the air between jumps & they were not efficient runners at all.

Pretty much I think my view of cadence (or to me it's always been turnover) and stride & pace are similar. I think people want a quick fix to getting faster and think if they fix one thing it will be magic, but that isn't always the case. Muscles need to be built and muscle memory needs to be built, it's not an overnight fix for sure & the natural talent thing comes into play so no matter what you do you may never be as fast as someone else who has that natural talent & works hard too.
 
Cadence, Stride Length, Gait and Pace: The Great Debate

So I provided a data set yesterday of my cadence, stride, and pace over time along with HR v Pace and Official race times over time to see what conclusions readers would draw from the data. See here for the original post.

The question I came into this experiment was, do I need to change my cadence/stride/gait to be faster?

To start off, when I started creating training plans for others I provided the following instructions on foot strike:

"Foot strike - The general recommendation is to have about 180 steps per minute or more. To have these many steps per minute, it forces you to take smaller, shorter strides and quicker foot movements. You can measure this with a phone app metronome or have someone watch you run and count. This is most important during the SPEED/TEMPO sessions. Foot strike during the easy running (LR or EA) is still important for reducing injury risk by making sure it is light-footed."

This was provided to a reader on 11/28/15.

My last instructions were:

"Foot strike - The general recommendation is to have about 180 steps per minute or more. To have this many steps per minute, it forces you to take smaller, shorter strides and quicker foot movements. You can measure this with a phone app metronome or have someone watch you run and count. Your Garmin might measure this (dependent on which you have). This is most important during the STRENGTH sessions. Foot strike during the easy running (LR or EA) is still important for reducing injury risk by making sure it is light-footed. Don't force this too much. Gradually over time find your happy place for cadence with a nice quick stride. Having your foot fall underneath your torso is the most important part because overstriding tends to lead to injuries."

This was provided to a reader on 9/27/16.

This is provided to show that my opinion and instructions can and will change over time. More time = more data = new training philosophies.

So to start, where did the 180 steps per minute recommendation come from? Is it like many other running philosophies handed down over time with no basis in anything other than observation (like running 20 miles for marathon training)? Is it merely based on elites which may or may not be applicable in our training ideals (like running 20 miles for marathon training)?

In 1984, Coach Jack Daniels was evaluating the cadence of elite runners in the Olympics. He noted that 45/46 runners had a cadence of 180 or more. These elite athletes were Olympic quality and competing in the events from the 800m and up. These people are fast! Daniels also noted that none of his recreational runners had a cadence above 180 and that most were at 150-170. And thus, the idea was born that to run like an elite, we should all be running at 180 steps per minute or more. Sometimes this story was misquoted as it was passed around and became we should all run at 180 steps per minute.

So does it make sense? Should we be running 180 steps per minute like the elites? Well now that we have our handy dandy data we can see what it says...

View attachment 208639

The relationship between pace vs (cadence x stride) is clear. In fact, it's downright science. Take the number of steps per minute and the distance they cover and use 1.0 miles as a marker and you get pace (min/mile). Simple math. Which means that cadence x stride is what determines pace. If I were to suggest a cadence of 180 steps per minute to a 7:30 min/mile runner, then the stride would be 1.19 meters. If I were to suggest a cadence of 180 steps per minute to a 15:00 min/mile runner, then the stride would be 0.59 meters.

I think you can see where this starts to break down. The key isn't 180 steps per minute as I wouldn't suggest a 15:00 min/mile keep their stride to 0.59 meters. Rather that person should worry about running a 15:00 min/mile comfortably and the cadence and stride will be what they are.

I think the real key in the suggestion of 180 steps per minute doesn't lie in the cadence itself. In lies, truly in the footfall location. It doesn't matter if you're heel, fore, or mid striker. What matters is if you're an over strider. If you find your foot falling outside the torso of your body. Think back to the days of physics. Every action has an equal reaction. So if you put 400 pounds of force into the ground, then the ground will put 400 pounds back into your foot (simply put, ignoring friction, heat, sound, etc.) Thus, how your foot "receives and distributes" that force is reliant on where your foot is in relation to the ground when it makes contact. The foot underneath your torso will distribute the force more evenly throughout your leg. Whereas, the force when the foot is outside the torso will not distribute evenly and will be more focused locally in the lower leg. Thus, this force leads to muscle and bone damage in the lower leg.

I also think the suggestion of increasing cadence to 180 doesn't lie in the 180 but in the concept in getting faster. You can see the relationship of cadence and stride are interrelated in creating pace. If you increase one and not the other, then you get faster. If you increase both, then you get even faster. If you decrease one and increase the other, you may very well find yourself at the same speed, slower, or faster. So in an ideal situation you increase both your cadence and your stride to run faster. But the caveat to increasing your stride length is you don't want to do it at the expense of over striding and increasing the risk for injury.

For example:
Cadence x Stride = Pace
2 x 2 = 4

Inc Cadence x Stride = Inc Pace
3 x 2 = 6

Cadence x Inc Stride = Inc Pace
2 x 3 = 6

Dec Cadence x Inc Stride = ??? Pace
1 x 3 = 3? or 1.5 x 3 = 4.5? or 0.5 x 5 = 2.5?

Inc Cadence x Inc Stride = Inc Pace
3 x 3 =9

So the idea of "recommending 180 steps per minute" should be really stated as "run with what feels like a natural cadence and with your foot always falling underneath your torso". This will make you faster and prevent injury at the same time. The number is irrelevant. As you get faster, your cadence and stride will either both increase or one will increase on its own.

So this is where I come back to my data set.

I have run really really really fast twice in my data collection life. Both of these instances came from end of the race sprints. During the Madison Mini HM in 2015, I had a sprint to the finish. From the brief data, I ran a 4:57 min/mile using 216 spm which equates to a stride length of 1.51 meters.

View attachment 208669

During the Hot2Trot 10k in 2016, I had a sprint to the finish race for 3rd place. From the brief data collected, I ran a 5:18 min/mile using 211 spm which equates to a stride length of 1.44 meters.

View attachment 208640

In both these cases, I ran fast. Like really fast. I ran a 4:57 min/mile or a 5:18 min/mile. While it was only for a brief moment, my body figured out how to do it. By doing a cadence of 211-216 and a stride length of 1.44-1.51 meters. So my form wasn't necessarily my limiting factor. Outside of a video, I don't know whether I was over striding to accomplish these paces, but what I do know is I did them. But if I could do them momentarily, why couldn't I continue to do them? Surely it wasn't my form holding me back?

So that brings me back to the data set I showed earlier. From Dec 15- Jan 15 (blue dots) my strategy was different. I had a longer stride and slower cadence. Now my strategy has changed to a faster cadence and a shorter stride. That's to say if you look at the data from Feb 2015 through Nov 2016 you don't see much of a difference. Maybe a hint, but nothing dramatic. Most of the red dots, green dots, and purple triangles are intermixed. However, compare the HR stats and the race time stats and there is a huge difference between Feb 2015 to Nov 2016.

In Feb 2015 my PRs were
5k - 23:36
10k - 49:49
HM - 1:53:18
M - 4:20:34

In Nov 2016 my PRs are
5k - 21:49 (est. 19:21)
10k - 44:23 (est. 40:29)
HM - 1:38:49 (est. 1:28:26)
M - 3:23:43 (est. 3:09:50)

And my HR stats based on different paces were
Pace - Feb vs Nov
10:00 - 148 vs 126
9:30 - 150 vs 127
9:00 - 154 vs 130
8:30 - 159 vs 136
8:00 - 164 vs 138
7:30 - 168 vs 146

So during the timeframe of Feb 2015 to Nov 2016, my cadence and stride length used to run certain paces didn't really change that much. But my HR relative to certain paces and my race times changed dramatically. This would suggest in of itself that cadence and stride length played a minimal to no role in my ability to race faster and have a lower HR at matching pace. Or said another way, there are a multitude of other things you should try to improve outside of cadence and stride length that will likely improve your racing and HR far more than they will.

So, my suggestion is to improve cadence to the point at which you are no longer over striding. This will make you faster and reduce injury. But don't force to continue increasing cadence at paces that don't need it by shortening your stride length. If you run a 15:00 min/mile with a cadence of 150, that very well may be appropriate for that speed given the need for reducing over striding. As you continue to increase your cadence the faster you will get. By increasing your cadence you very likely are spending less time on the ground. Less time on the ground = more time in the air without any forces acting on you. This means more power focused into each step rather than in other directions other than forward. It's also why I am a big proponent of sound and foot strike. Sound is generated by force (equal forces thing again). That means if two forces both hit the same surface but one does so with less sound then it does so with less loss of energy. Less loss of energy means more energy return with each step and thus you run faster. So light quick feet are the best (as long as it doesn't cause much vertical bounce, because then you're just wasting energy in a new plane).

But don't try to manually increase stride length. By doing so you may actually just be over striding. Manually increasing stride length during a run is not the same as naturally increasing your stride length. I almost feel there are two "stride lengths". There's the distance in which you try to manually put your foot out to increase distance. And then there's the stride which occurs naturally, but that increase in length when you put more power underneath each step. So if you want to increase stride length, don't do it manually during a run. Instead work on exercises that will put more power into your steps. And where does power come from?

Well there is endurance power. The power to continue to run at fast paces. This is where I attribute nearly 100% of my ability to race faster and train with a lower HR. Again going back to the data shown earlier, I was capable of running a 6:30-7:00 min/mile back in early 2015 just for 0.1 miles. Now I can run that for several miles (did 7:11 for 9 last night). So that comes from endurance power. Nothing changed from my stride to enable that pace for duration. It was simply increasing your endurance. More specifically your powerhouse of the leg, the mitochondria. These little guys will enable you to run further faster. And how do you build mitochondria? With smart training built around concepts like relative easy paced training, periodization, and balance. By building the mitochondria and getting stronger and more endurance in the legs it takes less effort to run a certain pace. Less effort at a certain pace = lower HR = going further faster! None of which is directly tied with changing cadence or stride, but ancillary connected.

You can also consider running hills or sprints. Running hills doesn't manually change your stride, but what it does do is force your body to adapt to creating more power with each step. You have to sprint up a hill, then your body better darn well figure out how. So when you aren't running up a hill anymore but you still have the same available power per step, then your stride length will increase. It won't increase because you're reaching further out. It will increase because of the extra strength or power behind each step.

So in conclusion, only increase your cadence to the point that it reduces over striding. Don't worry about increasing your stride length manually during running, but focus on building endurance and power through actual exercises like endurance training and possibly hill work (although I'll say that outside of running hills on a regular basis I have not done any actual "hill training" to get from where I was to where I am)

Alright, that's all I got. Let's hear those opinions. How did I do? Did I get it right or did I miss the mark? Is there something I might be missing? Some role that I'm not evaluating correctly?

I've read a few interesting articles on this. One of the articles was about humans selecting their most efficient combination of stride length and cadence. From novice runners to elites, runners consistently struggled to find their most efficient strides. Second, I've read about how elites vary their stride length and cadence during certain sections of the race. The idea is cadence and stride length = a gear box. Shorter faster strides are less efficient for high speeds just like trying to race a bike in gear 1. However longer faster strides are fastest but use the most energy like gear 21... look at Usain Bolt as A great example for this theory. Also, in an another article focused on male elite marathon runners, the winner of one of the major events had a crazy 3 mile kick at the end. During the race he averaged the highest cadence at nearly 200 spm but the shortest stride length. At the end of the race 3 racers were nearly tied. The winner started running at 230's stride per minute with his longest strides of the entire race. He obviously crushed everyone else, but could part of that be from all the energy he saved with his quick cadence early in the race?
 
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Couple of quick notes as it's almost Santa time:

-First and foremost, thank you @opusone, @dis_or_dat, @cavepig, @canglim52, and @roxymama for giving me your feedback and opinions. I appreciate you all taking time out of your day to reply to my thoughts and ideas. And whether you agree or disagree with my statements, I still appreciate everything because it allows me to continue to learn. I hope to have more time this evening to appropriately respond to each of your thoughts.

-Our first snow is coming Sunday morning. Scheduled for 3 inches. The weekend training plan called for 10 miles at easy on Saturday and 17 miles at long run pace on Sunday. However, because of the snow on Sunday I switched the long run to Saturday (this morning). Now there were some considerations going into the changes necessary to make.
--Normally, Saturday's run would have induced fatigue going into Sunday's long run. But instead with the run on Saturday morning instead this meant a few changes were necessary. Friday's run (or the last run prior to the long run) was now 12 hours prior to the long run instead of 24 hours. And the tempo run on Thursday (a hard workout) was now 24 hours closer to the long run. And the strength run from last Tuesday was 24 hours closer. In addition, because we've got Santa this morning instead of the normal 8.5-10 hours sleep I got 7 instead (up at 4, running at 6). So I decided to pull back on the long run effort and go one gear slower. The pace ended up at 8:13 min/mile (actually right on original training plan target) and the HR was comparable to past long runs (138, 138, 142, and today 138).
--The second consideration is now what to do on Sunday? I could simply do the 10 mile easy tomorrow (original Saturday), but that doesn't fit the theory behind the run anymore. Saturday was to induce fatigue for Sunday. But now Saturday's run is after Sunday. Which means a 10 mile easy isn't the same after a 17 mile run as it is prior to it. Thus, tomorrow will be a 6 mile super easy. Because of the extra fatigue of doing the Sunday long run 24 hours earlier, it's necessary to allow further recovery before we get back to another hard day. In addition, thankfully next week is a massive training cut. Hopefully this will give me that last boost and push I need for a good last training week and eventual sextuple PR Dopey attempt.

-Last night Gigi wanted to play the "running game". Her invention. I would start at one end of the hallway and her at the other. She would run towards me and yell water! Then I would hold out a "water bottle" (also known as toy kitchen mustard squeeze bottle). She would then proceed to take a quick drink, yell "thank you", and then start running down the hall again. Rinse, repeat. It was a funny experience!

-Lastly, good luck with your race tomorrow @pixarmom! Looks like the snow won't hold out for you but I'm wishing you the best!
 
And thanks everyone!

To be technical, I think Garmin calculates stride by taking distance and cadence (not pace and cadence). If you are using the GPS, Garmin infers pace by using distance and time.

Got me there. Garmin (and any device) can't measure pace. The Garmin measures distance using the satellite signal and time (well it's time). So using distance, time, and cadence (from the accelerometer) the Garmin can calculate stride length from the formula found above.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this conclusion. In the end, you may not want to decrease your cadence, but I think you should tinker with it and find what works best. At a specific speed, there is likely a optimal cadence that minimizes your effort at that pace. This may be slightly different for each of us (even if we are running at the same pace).

I can agree with this.

Regarding Dr. Jack Daniel's study, it was very surprising (and unexpected) when he originally found that almost all the elite runners ran at about a cadence of 180. He really did expect to see more variability. My translation of his data (and I think he has stated similarly) is that, at a ~5:00/mi pace, there is likely an efficiency of effort expended at about a 180 cadence. It would be tough to argue otherwise since none of the runners at that time were trying to achieve a specific cadence, so why did their bodies naturally fall into the same cadence? Again, I think it comes down to efficiency.

I believe the finding from Daniels was they were at 180 or above. So they could be conceivably be much higher than 180. I haven't been able to find his actual data, but it would seem from more recent elite races that the number probably ranged from 180 to 220 for the runners.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-...ack daniels cadence 180 1984 olympics&f=false

https://canute1.wordpress.com/2015/09/05/cadence-stride-length-and-mo-farahs-finishing-kick/

https://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/heelstriking-running-cadence/

http://www.treadlightlybook.com/2012/07/do-all-elites-run-at-180-cadence-none.html

It would be interesting as well to know the pace of the recreational runners and phys ed class students. Because while the elites at the 1984 Olympics were at 5:00 min/mile or possibly as low as 3:30 min/mile. But what was the pace of the recreational runners at 150-170. Because if they were a 5:00 min/mile pac at 150 steps that would be an incredible 3.07 meters. They must have been much slower.

I found this article to be the most interesting.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2011/02/180-isnt-magic-number-stride-rate-and.html

If you think about it like this, your cadence basically describes the amount of time you are "in the air." The higher the cadence (at the same pace), the less time you are in the air before the next foot strike. So, if you have a low cadence, you will be in the air for a longer amount of time between foot strikes which means that you had to push off harder (more energy). This usually also manifests itself as high vertical oscillation since you have to "jump" higher to get more air time. Higher vertical oscillation is thought of as wasted energy. If you speed up your cadence (but not your pace), two offsetting energy-related things are happening: (i) you don't have to push up as much since you will be off the ground for less time (saves energy), but (ii) you will now be taking more steps per mile. So, although each step takes less energy, you are adding more steps per mile which adds energy. In the end, there is likely some perfect balance (again, at a given pace) that will minimize total energy used per mile. The trick is finding it.

This makes a lot of sense!

I would think the best way to find it would be to try a couple different cadence levels on your tempo runs. Then, use your HR to determine which cadence took less effort (lower HR) at the same tempo pace. I picked tempo pace since this is basically race pace, and therefore, the pace you want to be most efficient at.

Good idea! The tempo run is where I do the most "tinkering" with all sorts of things because it's "comfortably difficult".

Regarding cardiac drift, I think we are all very different on this one. I have been running for almost 30 years, and some of those years, I was in really good shape, but I have ALWAYS had cardiac drift. However, I have known others who have an almost unbelievable consistent HR at a constant running pace. I tried HR-based training a few times over the years, and it never works for me because of this drift. To maintain a specific HR, I would have to constantly slow down over a run (regardless of how easy the pace is).

I wonder what the reason is for this. Is there something that is not running specific at play that can be improved or diminished through training?

Completely agree with this! The biggest problem with a slower cadence is the potential for over-striding. Regardless of your cadence, you need to ensure your foot strike is at or behind your center of gravity (somewhere in the torso region). A higher cadence is safer in regards to over-striding.

Agreed!

As mentioned in my long-winded discussion of cadence above, I think there is higher vertical oscillation ("bounce") with lower cadence, not higher cadence since you have to push up more since you will be "in the air" longer.

Makes more sense now. Looks like I got this one mixed up.

This! I videotaped high school cross country runners for over 10 years so saw so many forms & yes quick feet is the best in my opinion too. Some of those kids bounced so much it reminded me of Mario jumping where he wiggles his feet in the air between jumps & they were not efficient runners at all.

Totally saw this at WDW 2016 and the HM. There was a kid in a cross country jersey and he was bouncing so high. I thought it looked so odd.

Pretty much I think my view of cadence (or to me it's always been turnover) and stride & pace are similar. I think people want a quick fix to getting faster and think if they fix one thing it will be magic, but that isn't always the case. Muscles need to be built and muscle memory needs to be built, it's not an overnight fix for sure & the natural talent thing comes into play so no matter what you do you may never be as fast as someone else who has that natural talent & works hard too.

I think that's a good way to put it. When I was putting together my data I expected some dramatic changes in cadence and stride to account for my dramatic HR and race times. But I was surprised not to see much of a difference in the last 1.5 years. Thus, it led me to the conclusion that the effects of cadence/stride would probably be minimal in the grand scheme. Kind of like thinking that wholesale changing cadence/stride might be the difference between 11th and 10th place improvement. But the other things associated I listed earlier would be the difference between 11th and 3rd place improvement.

I've read a few interesting articles on this. One of the articles was about humans selecting their most efficient combination of stride length and cadence. From novice runners to elites, runners consistently struggled to find their most efficient strides.

Do you remember the paper source? I'd love to read it. I'd be interested to see how they evaluated it and defined this.

Second, I've read about how elites vary their stride length and cadence during certain sections of the race. The idea is cadence and stride length = a gear box. Shorter faster strides are less efficient for high speeds just like trying to race a bike in gear 1. However longer faster strides are fastest but use the most energy like gear 21... look at Usain Bolt as A great example for this theory.

Do you have the source for this as well? I would be interested to know whether their change in cadence/stride coincided with a change in pace. Or if these alterations to gear box where at the same pace, but using a different style to use muscles differently and thus stave off fatigue longer.

Also, in an another article focused on male elite marathon runners, the winner of one of the major events had a crazy 3 mile kick at the end. During the race he averaged the highest cadence at nearly 200 spm but the shortest stride length. At the end of the race 3 racers were nearly tied. The winner started running at 230's stride per minute with his longest strides of the entire race. He obviously crushed everyone else, but could part of that be from all the energy he saved with his quick cadence early in the race?

Yea, if we increased cadence and stride that makes him near unstoppable.
 
Last night Gigi wanted to play the "running game". Her invention. I would start at one end of the hallway and her at the other. She would run towards me and yell water! Then I would hold out a "water bottle" (also known as toy kitchen mustard squeeze bottle). She would then proceed to take a quick drink, yell "thank you", and then start running down the hall again. Rinse, repeat. It was a funny experience!

Now if you can only teach her to fold a cup & drink while moving....:rotfl:
 
Glad I decided to move the 17 mile run to Saturday because of the snow. Nice facial cleaning this morning with the ice/snow this morning during the easy 6 miler. I could have done the 17 miler, but it wouldn't have been as easy, enjoyable, or prepare me for Dopey as well on Sunday as it did on Saturday.
 
Couple of quick notes as it's almost Santa time:

-First and foremost, thank you @opusone, @dis_or_dat, @cavepig, @canglim52, and @roxymama for giving me your feedback and opinions. I appreciate you all taking time out of your day to reply to my thoughts and ideas. And whether you agree or disagree with my statements, I still appreciate everything because it allows me to continue to learn. I hope to have more time this evening to appropriately respond to each of your thoughts.

-Our first snow is coming Sunday morning. Scheduled for 3 inches. The weekend training plan called for 10 miles at easy on Saturday and 17 miles at long run pace on Sunday. However, because of the snow on Sunday I switched the long run to Saturday (this morning). Now there were some considerations going into the changes necessary to make.
--Normally, Saturday's run would have induced fatigue going into Sunday's long run. But instead with the run on Saturday morning instead this meant a few changes were necessary. Friday's run (or the last run prior to the long run) was now 12 hours prior to the long run instead of 24 hours. And the tempo run on Thursday (a hard workout) was now 24 hours closer to the long run. And the strength run from last Tuesday was 24 hours closer. In addition, because we've got Santa this morning instead of the normal 8.5-10 hours sleep I got 7 instead (up at 4, running at 6). So I decided to pull back on the long run effort and go one gear slower. The pace ended up at 8:13 min/mile (actually right on original training plan target) and the HR was comparable to past long runs (138, 138, 142, and today 138).
--The second consideration is now what to do on Sunday? I could simply do the 10 mile easy tomorrow (original Saturday), but that doesn't fit the theory behind the run anymore. Saturday was to induce fatigue for Sunday. But now Saturday's run is after Sunday. Which means a 10 mile easy isn't the same after a 17 mile run as it is prior to it. Thus, tomorrow will be a 6 mile super easy. Because of the extra fatigue of doing the Sunday long run 24 hours earlier, it's necessary to allow further recovery before we get back to another hard day. In addition, thankfully next week is a massive training cut. Hopefully this will give me that last boost and push I need for a good last training week and eventual sextuple PR Dopey attempt.

-Last night Gigi wanted to play the "running game". Her invention. I would start at one end of the hallway and her at the other. She would run towards me and yell water! Then I would hold out a "water bottle" (also known as toy kitchen mustard squeeze bottle). She would then proceed to take a quick drink, yell "thank you", and then start running down the hall again. Rinse, repeat. It was a funny experience!

-Lastly, good luck with your race tomorrow @pixarmom! Looks like the snow won't hold out for you but I'm wishing you the best!

Love Gigi's running game! Absolutely adorable, and she will be a pro at the races! Glad to hear your revised plan for the weekend worked out, and good call on the six miles this morning. :)

Thank you SO much for the Last Call half marathon advice and for the best wishes!! I really loved this race. I ran a 5K with our youngest yesterday, so I tested some of my running clothes in similar weather (minus snow and plus Santa hat.) Felt like I made good choices with gear today (except the decision to ditch the handwarmers in my gloves at mile 6, thinking they were too warm - really incredibly foolish decision.) Today's time was 1:53, so not a PR but I definitely slowed down on the snow-covered bridges and the start was a little congested. I considered weaving through at the start, but "don't sacrifice Dopey" became a mantra throughout. :) Beautiful course - was ready for the slight elevation given your earlier post - and would have loved to run the second half at full speed but that snow! Probably the most comfortable last mile of a half marathon ever (in terms of effort - not weather!) so I was really able to enjoy it. Definitely considering the First Call half in April!!
 

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