To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

HangWithMerida

And away we go!
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
I enjoy those holding pattern breaks. Just being able to run for the sake of running is nice after a hard training plan. It sounds like you have plenty of distractions, but crappy weather will still get me outside over a treadmill any day!!
My husband is also playing elden ring. He is a huge demon souls/dark souls fan so this was right up his alley. To me all these games look alike. I totally don't get it but he loves it.
 

DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
I enjoy those holding pattern breaks. Just being able to run for the sake of running is nice after a hard training plan. It sounds like you have plenty of distractions, but crappy weather will still get me outside over a treadmill any day!!

I'm kind of using the treadmill as an efficiency thing at the moment. Time saved by watching Moon Knight, movies, and the youtube videos that I'd otherwise be doing off treadmill when I came home. So a bit of two birds, one stone going on.

My husband is also playing elden ring. He is a huge demon souls/dark souls fan so this was right up his alley. To me all these games look alike. I totally don't get it but he loves it.

Never played any of the souls games in the past. They're not usually my type. But this game has absolutely blown me away. The level of detail and depth is astounding. After about 2 hours of playing it, I was like, I don't have the time to explore and such because I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing. The game is crazy with no waypoints or in-game guides. So I found a guy on youtube doing video walkthroughs and I just memorize what needs to be done for a few 30-45 min videos and then go replicate it. He did what took me 2 hrs, in the first 5 min of his first video. LOL! I'm way out of my league. I compare it to Halo Infinite which came out not too long ago as well. I beat the single player version of that game in under 10 hrs with 100% completion. I'm 60 hours into Elden Ring and not even close to halfway through the play through.
 

HangWithMerida

And away we go!
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
My husband has spent 116 hours lolll. No idea how far he is.
I checked in with mine last night. 170 hrs. He says he is basically done but he does all the side quests and lots of exploring so he is doing that stuff first before finishing it. That won't be the end. If it is anything like the souls games, he'll replay it several times with different builds.
 

DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
My husband has spent 116 hours lolll. No idea how far he is.

I checked in with mine last night. 170 hrs. He says he is basically done but he does all the side quests and lots of exploring so he is doing that stuff first before finishing it. That won't be the end. If it is anything like the souls games, he'll replay it several times with different builds.

Looks like I've got a ways to go!
 

HangWithMerida

And away we go!
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Elden Ring update. My husband has finished his first play through. 187 hours. He says about 30 of that was co-op. Lots of side quests and exploring. He already has a couple of new builds that he is trying out for the next go.
 

DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Elden Ring update. My husband has finished his first play through. 187 hours. He says about 30 of that was co-op. Lots of side quests and exploring. He already has a couple of new builds that he is trying out for the next go.

That's crazy! I haven't made much progress because G has wanted to play Lego Star Wars which also just came out. So I'm still around 60 hours or so. I've completed all underground areas, all of Limgrave, almost all of Lithurnia (not the Moonlight area), about 70% of Caelid (not the northern portion which the walkthrough says is too tough for us right now), and am just starting the Altus Plateau area. He last said we're just under 50% of complete a few walkthrough episodes ago.
 

DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Madison M 2022 Training Plan - Preliminary Stages

The Madison M is about 30 weeks away. So still a good bit of time. I've been mulling over what training plan to use. I've considered the book based Hansons plans, the alternate non-book based Hansons plans I've got, and the Daniels 4Q plan (which I had started to use for Chicago 2018 but then had the ankle tendonitis injury). I had started to write in the Daniels 4Q plan for 55-70 mile peak, but then the amount of contradiction in the written plan against what is written in the earlier chapters of the book is astounding. At one point the 55-70 mile plan has a Threshold run that totals 12 miles at threshold. But earlier in the book is states that you shouldn't do more than 60 total minutes of threshold (I would be doing about 78 min) and no more than 10% of total mileage. But that's what doesn't make sense, why schedule 12 miles of T in a 70 mile peak plan when 12 miles of T at 10% of total should be something like a 120 mile training plan. It just makes me uneasy about trying to tackle something like that when there are contradictions between the two portions of the book.

I then wrote out the Daniels workouts from the 45-54 mile plan, and planned on them being in a plan that's actually peaking in the mid-60s. They made a lot more sense. Not completely as there is a 8 mile T workout, but at least it's closer. But once I completed the write out of it, I wasn't completely sold on whether that's the route I wanted to take. The Hansons intermediate plan I used for Madison M 2021 worked reasonably well. Only a hair off my PR (3:14 vs 3:15), but I did feel as if I fell a little short of where my fitness was at the time. But conversely, I did have one of my best, if not my best, late miles marathon racing experience to date. So I don't know.

I've been poking around elsewhere to see what else is available. I've lightly read some of Renota Canova's stuff (mostly based in Italy and Africa), but he's a bit harder to get material on since he doesn't have a published book. I found a presentation of his here:


It's a really good listen if you've got an hour. He does the presentation in English. Certain parts are hard to understand what he's saying, but for the most part I could understand is English. The subtitles generated by Youtube are hilarious at some points. I also found a few summaries and transcriptions that I'll attach.

I see hints of what he's saying in other coaches' philosophies. When I look at his suggestions based on what I've done, I see some places that maybe I could change things up. I'm interested in the idea of three phases to the training: General, Fundamental, and Specific. I personally find the M Tempo workouts to be the most challenging in my Hansons plans. I also see how the Hansons plans are generally very specific in the last phase of training (high volume M Tempos + M Tempo Strength workouts). The key difference seems to revolve around dropping from 3 hards to 2 hards, and that the long runs during Canova are done at a much slower pace during the Fundamental (or mid-phase) of the training. More like a Daniels approach where you're pulling back on the pace scheme early and then gradually increasing it. And it's entirely possible based on Canova's data that I'm just being a touch too aggressive on my long run pace. Might help explain why I start to falter once I get to the 130-150 min range on my current routine. I can do them for 130-150 min, but maybe it's just a touch too hard. Canova also seems to be a big fan of over/unders which are a new way of thinking. Pull back a bit on the intensity (or duration) of a rep, but then don't allow full rest during the RI (instead treating the RI as part of the workout itself).

In some ways, I see the Canova training like the combo between my Lake 2017 and Dopey 2018. Whereas the Lake 2017 was the General/Fundamental period, and then Dopey 2018 was the Specific. The main difference being that I attempted to race during the Fundamental period of the training.

I don't know yet. Like I said, I'm still mulling things over. But in a general sense something like:

-Few weeks of hills, strides, long run at slow pace, and maybe LIIFT4 legs workouts.
-Second phase would reach peak volume, some long run still slow pace, some shorter long runs at faster pace, introduce workouts on both the fast end and area around M Tempo, utilize over/unders
-Third phase run my normal LR pace in the 2 hr limit area, add in long M Tempo (either continuous or over/unders)
 

Attachments

  • Renato Canova Marathon Training Philosophy - RunnyDay.pdf
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  • Renato_Canova_Marathon_Training_Methods.pdf
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  • something new in training.pdf
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DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
? Weeks to go - Nothing Specific - Week ?/?

4/11/22-4/17/22

Tues-Thurs: 60 min @ Easy on Treadmill (7.0 mph / 8:35 min/mile)
Fri (4/15): 7 miles @ Easy (8:41 min/mile)
Sat (4/16): 60 min @ Easy on Treadmill (7.0 mph / 8:35 min/mile)
Sun (4/17): 9 miles @ Long Run (8:16 min/mile)

Total Run Miles - 43.8 miles
Total Run Time - 6:15 hours
Total Strength Time - 0:00 hours
Total Training Time - 6:15 hours

4/18/22-4/24/22

Tues: 7 miles @ Easy (8:41 min/mile)
Wed: 60 min @ Easy on Treadmill (7.0 mph / 8:35 min/mile)
Thurs: 1.2 miles w/ G at 30/30 + 5.8 miles @ Easy (8:44 min/mile)
Fri: 60 min @ Easy on Treadmill (7.0 mph / 8:35 min/mile)
Sat: 7 miles @ Easy (8:46 min/mile)
Sun: 7 miles @ Easy (8:29 min/mile)

Total Run Miles - 42 miles
Total Run Time - 6:08 hours
Total Strength Time - 0:00 hours
Total Training Time - 6:08 hours

Almost exactly a month between my outside training runs (March 16th to April 15th). During the week of 4/11 is when I was trying to decide (and still am) what I was going to do for Madison M training. So if I wanted to follow Daniels 24-week plan, then I would need to start picking things up ever so slightly (oh, and get back outside again). My body was mostly fine, but I could tell I had become accustomed to the aid of the treadmill in the last month. So it was definitely a point of interest to stop using the treadmill as much and get back outside when it was reasonable. The legs are starting to come under me more, but the HRvPace data is pretty clear that I've lost a step since Princess. But since my goal race is 29 weeks away, I'm not really stressing that point too much. G and I got back outside to restart her training as well. She did well for a return to running with one of her faster average paces (12:42 min/mile) for the 1.2 miles. And unlike the other times we've gone this fast, she seemed no worse for wear.

I'm leaning towards the Canova training for the Madison M. Which means I've got nine more weeks of the "introductory phase" before the real training starts. During this time period, my focus should be on the weight room. So I'm going back to the tried and true LIIFT4 workouts. However, since Canova is a big believer in plyometrics, I won't be skipping that portion of the workout anymore. Since I'm not training all that hard (capped at 60 min per day and all easy), I think doing the plyo should be more doable. So I'll start the LIIFT4 workouts this Sat/Sun into next week Tues/Wed, with the 8-week program ending right before the Canova "General Phase" begins.

Saturday was another milestone. I've now run 15,000 career miles. It just so happened to be my birthday as well. G and Steph got me a plethora of cosplay information books. I've read through the nearly 400 pages of instructions and pictures. So now we're well versed in all sorts of crafty techniques. We'll see if we can put the pieces together and make KamuiCosplay proud.
 

Herding_Cats

DIS Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Did you see that they’re doing a follow up to liift4? Supposed to come out with “vip” access (aka, buy a challenge pack 🙄) in June I think. Might be available to “normal” subscribers by around Thanksgiving or Christmas I think.
 

avondale

DIS Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2017
Happy birthday! 🎂
🎂

I stopped by to drop you this link: https://news.ultrasignup.com/the-ai...lzA&utm_content=211113640&utm_source=hs_email
You are big on heat adaptation. This blog article links to research that supposedly shows that time in a hot tub can be a better heat adaptation method. I did not go to the original research article. I will say that sitting in a hot tub is a much more attractive prospect than wearing tons of layers on runs!
 

DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Happy belated birthday and running milestone!

Thanks!

Did you see that they’re doing a follow up to liift4? Supposed to come out with “vip” access (aka, buy a challenge pack 🙄) in June I think. Might be available to “normal” subscribers by around Thanksgiving or Christmas I think.

I did see that. Looks to be more days per week and longer workouts. Not sure it'll be something I try and squeeze in once it's available to us "normals". I already typically cut the leg day, the plyo, and make the workouts more condensed for my specific purpose. But I'll reserve judgement until the end. My SIL tends to get the VIP things so maybe she'll try it and relay to me her experience.

Happy birthday! 🎂
🎂

I stopped by to drop you this link: https://news.ultrasignup.com/the-ai...lzA&utm_content=211113640&utm_source=hs_email
You are big on heat adaptation. This blog article links to research that supposedly shows that time in a hot tub can be a better heat adaptation method. I did not go to the original research article. I will say that sitting in a hot tub is a much more attractive prospect than wearing tons of layers on runs!

Thanks!

Good read. Would have like to have seen a crossover with a washout period. Hopefully something they consider the next time around. Would be nice to be able to do three days of a hot bath post 40 min run in 66F as opposed to wearing tons of layers. I know one runner that has access to a Sauna that finds it to be a good HAT method.

Happy belated birthday! Excited to see what you learn with the new methodology. :cake:

Thanks!

One line that stuck out to me (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember it verbatim) was about how we're all working with the same ingredients. So the workouts he schedules are nothing special per se. But rather it's the cook/chef that makes the difference. The recipe and the order and orientation in which you put the ingredients together makes the dish good or bad. I'd probably add on top of that food analogy to say that we also have individual taste preferences. So what works for one (or tastes good to someone) doesn't necessarily mean it'll work (or taste good) to someone else. He feels his "recipe" is a good one, and also agrees individuality is important.

What sets his plan apart in my mind is how he has an extremely challenging workout (120 min at M Tempo - 10 sec) 40 days out from race day, and then the taper truly begins at 7 weeks. So this would be like me doing 17 miles almost at M Tempo, and then the remainder of the training pulls back some in that nothing after that is nearly as hard as that will be.

Additionally, my previous LR pace (7:40s) is capped at 120 min. I previously have found that once I get into the 135-150 range at that pace is when my body goes from "yes, this is working" to "nope, shouldn't have done that" despite being able to physically complete the run without much issue. The pace he wants me to run the majority of the long runs at (8:26 or 80% of M Tempo) is calculated:

(M Tempo / 100) * (100 - Scheduled %) + M Tempo

So for me:

7:02 min/mile divided by 100 = ~4 seconds
4 seconds * ( 100 - 80 ) = +84 seconds
7:02 min/mile + 84 seconds = 8:26 min/mile

I haven't done an 8:26 min/mile LR pace since Spring 2016. In the Spring of 2016, my PRs were 21:49 5k, 44:57 10k, 1:38:49 HM, 3:38:53 M. I ran a 3:28 M in the Spring of 2016. So it'll be interesting to see how this more varied LR pace based on duration plays out.

These were my notes from the video and summaries I linked:
Screen Shot 2022-04-26 at 2.58.59 PM.png
 

DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
27 Weeks to go - Canova Intro Phase - Week 2&3/10

4/25/22-5/1/22

Tues (4/26): 7 miles @ Easy (8:44 min/mile, 133 bpm)
Wed (4/27): 7 miles @ Easy (8:39 min/mile, 134 bpm)
Thurs (4/28): 7 miles @ Easy (8:45 min/mile, 133 bpm)
Fri (4/29): OFF
Sat (4/30): 7 miles @ LR (8:28 min/mile, 135 bpm) + LIIFT4-Chest/Tri
Sun (5/1): 7 miles @ Moderate (8:06 min/mile, 135 bpm) + LIIFT4-Back/Biceps

Total Run Miles - 35.0 miles
Total Run Time - 4:59 hours
Total Strength Time - 1:15 hours
Total Training Time - 6:15 hours

5/2/22-5/8/22

Tues (5/3): 5.2 miles @ Easy (8:45 min/mile, 131 bpm) + LIIFT4-Shoulders
Wed (5/4): 5.2 miles @ Easy (8:37 min/mile, 132 bpm) + LIIFT4-Legs
Thurs (5/5): 7 miles @ Easy (8:50 min/mile, 131 bpm)
Fri (5/6): 1.3 miles @ 30/30 with G & S + 6 miles @ Easy (8:49 min/mile, 132 bpm)
Sat (5/7): 7 miles @ Easy (8:59 min/mile, 124 bpm) + LIIFT4-Chest/Tri
Sun (5/8): 1.3 miles @ 30/30 with G & S + 6 miles @ LR (8:26 min/mile, 133 bpm) + LIIFT4-Back/Biceps

Total Run Miles - 39.1 miles
Total Run Time - 5:52 hours
Total Strength Time - 2:27 hours
Total Training Time - 8:20 hours

I haven't 100% committed to the Canova training for the Madison M, but at this point I'm feeling like that's what is going to happen. So the goal of the introductory phase of the training (up until 20 weeks to go) will be a cap of running at 60 min per day, all easy, and doing some lifting/plyo. So the LIIFT4 workouts have begun again. I shifted the training to be on Sat/Sun/Tues/Thurs because that fits my schedule better. It will allow me to keep the Legs workout away from the weekend, and thus will allow me to do a full 60 min workout. Whereas on the weekdays, I'm limiting my run time to 45 min plus lifting at the moment due to time constraints. I may bump back up towards 60 min + lifting on weekdays towards the end of the intro phase just to make sure the running volume is prepared for the real run training portion.

It's important to note, this is the first time in a long time that I've done the full LIIFT4 program. Normally when I'm run training, I only do the lifting portion. I don't do the HIIT/plyo or the core workouts. But since I'm in a low volume running phase right now, I'm doing everything. I also normally don't do the LIIFT4-Legs workout during my typical training cycles.

I took 4/29 off because I worked late and everyone was hungry when I got home. So if I had worked out we wouldn't have eaten dinner until 8:30ish and that's pushing it.

The pace creeped up on me on 4/30 and 5/1. So I went from what felt natural of an easy at around 8:45 min/mile and slid up to 8:28 and 8:06. With that being said, the HRs were still far under my M Tempo of 145-ish and thus were still relatively easy.

The week of 5/2 was brutal from a work standpoint. I had to be in on Monday (5/1) at 3am and worked long into the day. The rest of the week was closer to 9-10 hr days with little downtime during the work day and little sleep.

The LIIFT4 Legs workout on 5/4 was absolutely brutal. Now I've re-reminded myself why I don't usually do this workout during a typical training cycle. My legs were absolute trash and I was so relieved when the workout was over. But the next two days were like the 2nd and 3rd day post-marathon. My legs were so incredibly sore.

Steph and I had discussed her issues with her recent attempts at weight loss and I suggested maybe getting off the treadmill and getting back outside running again. I said the assistance of the treadmill may be hampering how hard she's actually working. So I've convinced Steph to come out with G and myself when we run together. So now the whole crew is out there. We did two runs the week of 5/2 and Steph did well keeping up for the short 15 min workout at 30/30. G set her new fastest average pace at 12:32 min/mile. She's gaining new confidence in herself (not that she lacked much).

I twisted my ankle really good on 5/7 (Saturday), but thankfully it seems to have caused no long standing issues. Thank goodness for all the preventative care I've been doing the last two years in getting my ankles stronger.

Lastly, the HRvPace is in a really good place right now. My goal is always to be in a place where my HR at a 9:00 min/mile is less than 130 bpm. That's typically a sign to myself that I'm in good shape. The runs on 5/7 and 5/8 show that to be the case. As soon as I did the 4/30 LIIFT4 workout where I had to do some fast feet work, I could tell all my runs felt stronger because of that mind/body connection.

So all in all, the intro phase is going well.
 

HangWithMerida

And away we go!
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
It's awesome that your wife is joining in for family runs. For a brief window of time both my kid and husband were running and we would run together on sunday. I really enjoyed our family runs and miss them now.
 

DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
It's awesome that your wife is joining in for family runs. For a brief window of time both my kid and husband were running and we would run together on sunday. I really enjoyed our family runs and miss them now.

She's been running longer than I have (want to say she started a few months before I did in 2012). Before G, we used to do runs together in that we would both leave at the same time and time our routes such that we would be finishing around the same time. It then became a sprint to the finish. Whoever finished first had to adjust how much they ran the next time to try and even out the "race". This was before the "train slow to race fast" days. After G though, Steph ran less and did less races. With G that young, she was running at 4-5am and I would run in the evenings. But she never really liked running outside that early. We ran some together as a family in the summer of 2019, but not anything in 2020 or 2021. We got the treadmill in early 2021 so she could run again, but not early morning outside. We decided it's time for her to get back in the outside running groove again and doing some with G and I was a good segue.
 

DopeyBadger

Imagathoner
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
26 Weeks to go - Canova Intro Phase - Week 4/10

nope-mario.gif

5/9/22-5/15/22

Tues (5/10): 5.1 miles @ Easy (8:55 min/mile, 134 bpm) + LIIFT4-Shoulders
Wed (5/11): 5.1 miles @ Easy (8:47 min/mile, 136 bpm) + LIIFT4-Legs
Thurs (5/12): 7 miles @ Easy (8:59 min/mile, 138 bpm)
Fri (5/13): 7 miles @ Easy (8:49 min/mile, 135 bpm)
Sat (5/14): 7 miles @ Easy (8:46 min/mile, 127 bpm) + LIIFT4-Chest/Tri
Sun (5/15): 7 miles @ Moderate (8:01 min/mile, 138 bpm) + LIIFT4-Back/Biceps

Total Run Miles - 38.2 miles
Total Run Time - 5:32 hours
Total Strength Time - 2:14 hours
Total Training Time - 7:47 hours


Tuesday

Conditions - ⛅ Humid and Mostly Cloudy, Wind 11mph to 19mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 86°F + 74°F; FL - 94°F
End: Temp+Dew = 84°F + 74°F; FL - 94°F

Lower right side back was bothering me on Sunday afternoon through Tuesday's run. But the run was mostly unaffected. I had to be a little cautious during the lifting, but things actually felt better afterwards.

But let's bury the lead here. It's May 10th in Wisconsin and the T+D was a whopping 160! I went back and looked through 2020 and 2021. I only had 3 runs in 2020 and 4 runs in 2021 at 160 or higher. So this heat wave was extremely unusual and not welcome for this time of year. I even took a peak at Texas and Florida weather only to see that what I was experiencing (albeit in a limited fashion) was warmer than the southern US. Ick, ick ick! I tried to slow down, but ultimately I ran too fast for the conditions. Looking through the forecast, it was going to be warm all week.

Wednesday

Conditions - ⛅ Humid and Mostly Cloudy, Wind 13mph to 20mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 82°F + 73°F; FL - 88°F
End: Temp+Dew = 83°F + 73°F; FL - 88°F

Another too hot day, another day I should have slowed down more but didn't. Thankfully the LIIFT4 legs workout wasn't nearly as brutal as the week prior's. The focus was on HIIT which for the most part I can eat that stuff up. Especially the running focused HIIT exercises like the soccer run or high knees. I look like a spry 20 year old doing those. But get me going down to the ground and then standing back up and I probably look like an 80 year old. LOL!

Thursday

Conditions - ⛅ Partly Cloudy, Wind 14mph to 21mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 89°F + 70°F; FL - 93°F
End: Temp+Dew = 87°F + 69°F; FL - 93°F

No relief today either. Body wasn't nearly as sore post Legs workout as it was last week (again, no weighted exercises helped). The pace slowed, but the HR continued to rise. Body just isn't liking these high temps right now.

Friday

Conditions - ⛅ Partly Cloudy, Wind 9mph to 11mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 86°F + 64°F; FL - 87°F
End: Temp+Dew = 83°F + 65°F; FL - 87°F

I had a tight timeframe with getting home, running, and then picking Steph up from work. About 60 min is the maximum I can manage if I rush, rush, rush. But everything worked out as I got the full run in and was able to make it to Steph's work before she exited the building. So win, win.

Saturday

Conditions - ⛅ Mostly Cloudy, Wind 5mph to 6mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 62°F + 58°F; FL - 62°F
End: Temp+Dew = 63°F + 58°F; FL - 62°F

Hooray for cooler morning weather. Steph had to work 7:30am-8pm, so I needed to be done before 7am. So I was up at 4:45, and out the door at a hair before 6am. Body loved the cooler weather and the effort was more in line with what I should have been doing all week. One of the best HRvPace relationships of the training thus far. Aiming for sub-9=sub130 bpm and I was at 8:46 for 127 bpm. Just goes to show how much the sudden change in T+D can influence HR since I went from 131 bpm last week, to 136 bpm during the mid-week heat, to 127 bpm on the cooler morning (but still >100 T+D).

Sunday

Conditions - ⛅ Partly Cloudy, Wind 9mph to 15mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 66°F + 48°F; FL - 66°F
End: Temp+Dew = 68°F + 47°F; FL - 66°F

Let the pace slip too much on this one. Went past easy, past soon to be LR, all the way to "Canova moderate". Oh well. Sometimes you feel good and ride the groove, but the HR was higher than I wanted to be at this point in the training (goal is almost exclusively easy for another six weeks).

Hopefully we don't see T+D like that again until July/August (or not at all, I'd take not at all). Things continue to progress well and I'm in a good place.
 









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