Tithing- Let's discuss it

[rpbert1]

ok, lets get back to budgeting ideas

 

[MKCP5]

Briar Rose
I read your explanation of tithing vs. giving and you are right on the nose with scripture and wisdom. I am proud of your efforts. Great job.

 

[mommyoeo]

I skipped to the end and didn't read the 12 pages in the middle. The last few posts imply that this discussion got heated, which I am sure was not the intent. Anyhow, I wanted to put my 2 cents in, for what it's worth! Someone mentioned that thier pastor makes 135K! Would you please tell that church to email me? We'd go there for only 130K and save them a few bucks!! On a serious note, my hubby and I scrape by, barley making it. He is a youth pastor, which means he works with teens and does pastoral duties at our church. I coordinate our preschool. We moved to a small city where people are sturggling and stores are closing because we felt God leading us there. We love being used, but we are sacrificing every material blessing possible. If it were not for PeachCare (public health care for kids of hard working but poor families that costs very little) we might not have health care. We do not get a retirement, medical care, dental or any other benefit. If you trust your pastors, tithe your 10%. If you do not, change churches! There are churches out there who are struggling to meet the need of people in their comunities, even at the expense of thier pastors. About a budget, PTL that we nearly have our credit cards paid. We did Dave Ramsey's plan and have had great success. In fact, we booked our upcoming Disney trip as a celebration because we thought we'd be out of CC debt altogether by October. No such luck but we've still made good progress. I just wanted to say that as poor as we are, Dave Ramsey has helped so much. Look online to find his radio show. If he can help us, he can help anyone.

 

[muffy0110]

Jehovah's Witnesses are paid nothing. No one in our Kingdom Hall is paid
for preaching. Jesus said that we recieved free so give free.

 

[ckoncurat]

Jehovah's Witnesses are paid nothing. No one in our Kingdom Hall is paid
for preaching. Jesus said that we recieved free so give free.

I am a Latter-Day Saint (Mormon). Our church is also entirely staffed by unpaid volunteers- Everyone from the bishop (pastor) down to the nursery leader gives of their time freely. Families even take turns cleaning the building. We tithe 10% on top of that, plus a modest unspecified fast offering (usually the cost of two meals) to help those in our congregation in need of physical assistance. My inlaws are on an 18 month church mission in Fiji, and they are paying their own expenses 100%. Except for a handful of leaders at the very top of our church hiarchy, everyone works full time in their own career and then serves in the church for free. We consider it a privelege to serve.

 

[mommyoeo]

Just curious-- your Bibles are probably different than mine-- does your Bible say a workman deserves his pay? Do the priests in your Bible have a house to live in and are they fed by the church? That is how the tithe began-- people brought t a 10th of their grain or produce to feed the priests. The priests also did the same. There was enough and it always met the needs of widows or whoever else was in need also. It is INDEED a privilege to serve in the church. I totally agree with that. Do you have any full time pastors or are they serving after they do the job that supports their families? We work at least 60 hours a week, on a GOOD week, and there is no way our church would expect us to then go out and earn a living elsewhere. The past few months, it has been over 80 a week. However, I do think pastors should not take advantage of the system. We make very little, very, very little. Like you said, it is a privilege for us to work there. Every day, we wake up and cannot believe that we get to do what we love! I am not complaining about the little money we get. I brought it up because others had mentioned that their pastors were paid LOTS of money and they felt uncomfortable about that. I wanted them to know that there are honest folks out there. My intent is not to debate you on this—I am just curious about the different customs. We are probably looking at 3 different “Bibles”. That’s my guess anyway.

 

[DMRick]

I am a tithing Christian and I still find this insulting. Just because people see things different, it's not nice to suggest they have different Bibles. That's like saying only your religion is right, and only your religion can interpret the Bible correctly.
As far as being disturbed by a Pastors high pay...well, our Pastor is paid well, and he earns it. I hardly think that anyone is insinuating that just because their Pastor is paid well, they think he/she is dishonest. If you feel underpaid for what you do (and that is truly what I'm hearing) perhaps it's time to have a talk with your board. Are you helping to bring in lots of new members? Is your church just starting to grow and it's too small right now to give you what you think you are worth? I'm just aghast that a Pastor would post what you just did.
If you weren't looking for a debate, then why did you post what you did?

Also, we do have some Pastors who have "regular" full time jobs and preach at no, or very little pay. But our Pastors who are full time (40-60 hours a week..and more if needed), are paid...and I have no problem with that..I'm just thankful my days and nights aren't as long.

Just curious-- your Bibles are probably different than mine--

<snip>

I brought it up because others had mentioned that their pastors were paid LOTS of money and they felt uncomfortable about that. I wanted them to know that there are honest folks out there. My intent is not to debate you on this—I am just curious about the different customs. We are probably looking at 3 different “Bibles”. That’s my guess anyway.

 

[Local_Girl]

Another Latter-Day Saint here... Hi, ckoncurat! Great explanation of how things work in our church...hope you don't mind if I add a bit.

We believe that our "jobs" in the church are callings; that we are called by the Lord through our church leaders. We serve until we are "released" from that calling, and then we are usually given another...kind of like a rotation, if you will, though there is no set timetable for callings and releases. For example, I have had the opportunity to serve in multiple callings in my lifetime, from a Sunday School teacher, to the president of our womens' auxiliary, to a nursery worker (and just about everything in between!). Our bishops (pastors) are called the same way, serve for a period of time (usually a few years), then they are released and given a new calling, and someone else becomes the bishop. We believe these callings are all opportunities for our growth, as we are constantly learning new skills. None of the members of our local church (ward) are paid for serving in these callings, though our ward is given an operating budget by the Church to cover other expenses.

Wow, sorry to ramble...just wanted to give an idea of how we do it without paid clergy.

 

[DMRick]

Does your husband know this is how you feel?

Someone mentioned that thier pastor makes 135K! Would you please tell that church to email me? We'd go there for only 130K and save them a few bucks!! On a serious note, my hubby and I scrape by, barley making it. He is a youth pastor, which means he works with teens and does pastoral duties at our church. I coordinate our preschool. We moved to a small city where people are sturggling and stores are closing because we felt God leading us there. We love being used, but we are sacrificing every material blessing possible.

 

[mommyoeo]

Thanks for writing! I'm glad you did. I am not looking for a debate but I will answer your questions honestly. Actually, we do have different Bibles. Check into it. They are translated VERY differently (JW). LDS have another "supplemental" (for lack of a better word) book to the Bible, though that is certainly not what they call it. A "companion book" maybe? I really cannot remember. But the The New World Translation , which the Jehovah’s Witnesses use, is quite different form protestant Bibles. You might have read sarcasm into what I was writing-- that is the risk of writing and not having the chance to talk in person. I assure you I am not being sarcastic. I was curious, knowing how different our Bibles are, what they say about paying their pastors. It's no sin to ask questions! I am not IMPLYING that they have different Bibles to be unkind. I am saying they DO have different Bibles (or companion books that go along, as LDS) and wonder what they say about the topic. They seemed to think that pastor should not be paid at all and held their churches as an example. As a family who is paid as well as our church can afford while still having HUGE ministries for our church and community (we're a large church and yes, we hope to add members because we care about people, not their tithe) we're just curious about why they would not want to pay. I was wondering if it was customs or if they were following what their Bible says.

As for you, KUDOS, sincerely, for supporting your pastor well. He is giving his life away for your church, every day. I think he should be paid as well as you can afford, although I think it could be (and this board shows sometimes IS) a stumbling block for one to be paid 135K (someone's pastor on this board, not us). That's why I responded in the first place. MY goal was to say: if that is a stumbling block for you, there are other churches out there in different situations that you may be able to support without worry of how the money was managed or if the staff was overpaid.

I'm glad you pay your full time pastors! My DH would have to give up time where he was serving, I guess. If they want him serving FT, and they do-- we're severely understaffed-- he'd have no other time for a job. His days are 12-15 hours as it is on many days.

You can email me at christybooth@charter.net if you want. I do not want a debate because this is not the place for it and I HATE to debate anyway! I'm very easy going. I do not want to divide people, but rather be uniting, that, HEY, we're all trying to do what's right but we are probably reading 2 different things. There's probably no harm in either way and probably textual support somewhere for both methods.

BTW, if there are any LDS or JW out there, please educate me about why you don’t pay your pastors—I’m curious about if certain passages lead you to do so or if it is a cultural custom of sorts. (Or is it just the above posters who don’t pay and it’s an individual church’s decision) I’m just a curious girl! (Also, sorry in advance if I didn't use the right terminology above to describe your religion. By asking the questions in the first place, I am admitting that I know very little of your customs and therefore your terminology as well)

OK—is all cleared up? Are we good? Hope you all have a super day—

Christy

 

[mommyoeo]

Local_Girl, thanks for the explanation!

 

[mommyoeo]

DMRick, HOW FUNNY! I am pretty sure he knows. We debated long and hard about coming to this small town and to a church who has never had a budget because we worried that with their finances being so tight, that they might decide after all that they could not afford to pay us at all. But it is such a wonderful church, that we'd like to stay here forever and hope to die here. Money or not! We're both educated in other fields as well, in case we have to be bi-vocational. We started out in churches as bi-vocational and got the degrees we did because we wanted to be able to go wherever the Lord led us and not worry about how we'd survive. I guess the big thing you guys might be sensing in me is a huge guilt about working so much and not providing very well for my own kids. I am not resentful at all toward the church-- which I fear is what people think. I"m just weighing if I might have to go get another job and spend even less time with my precious angels who sacrifice so much already. So there-- I have bared my heart to the cyber-world. Something I never thought in a million years I'd do! This must be the disney bond-- HAH!

 

[ckoncurat]

Thanks for writing! I'm glad you did. I am not looking for a debate but I will answer your questions honestly. Actually, we do have different Bibles. Check into it. They are translated VERY differently (JW). LDS have another "supplemental" (for lack of a better word) book to the Bible, though that is certainly not what they call it. A "companion book" maybe? I really cannot remember. But the The New World Translation , which the Jehovah’s Witnesses use, is quite different form protestant Bibles. You might have read sarcasm into what I was writing-- that is the risk of writing and not having the chance to talk in person. I assure you I am not being sarcastic. I was curious, knowing how different our Bibles are, what they say about paying their pastors. It's no sin to ask questions! I am not IMPLYING that they have different Bibles to be unkind. I am saying they DO have different Bibles (or companion books that go along, as LDS) and wonder what they say about the topic. They seemed to think that pastor should not be paid at all and held their churches as an example. As a family who is paid as well as our church can afford while still having HUGE ministries for our church and community (we're a large church and yes, we hope to add members because we care about people, not their tithe) we're just curious about why they would not want to pay. I was wondering if it was customs or if they were following what their Bible says.

As for you, KUDOS, sincerely, for supporting your pastor well. He is giving his life away for your church, every day. I think he should be paid as well as you can afford, although I think it could be (and this board shows sometimes IS) a stumbling block for one to be paid 135K (someone's pastor on this board, not us). That's why I responded in the first place. MY goal was to say: if that is a stumbling block for you, there are other churches out there in different situations that you may be able to support without worry of how the money was managed or if the staff was overpaid.

I'm glad you pay your full time pastors! My DH would have to give up time where he was serving, I guess. If they want him serving FT, and they do-- we're severely understaffed-- he'd have no other time for a job. His days are 12-15 hours as it is on many days.

You can email me at christybooth@charter.net if you want. I do not want a debate because this is not the place for it and I HATE to debate anyway! I'm very easy going. I do not want to divide people, but rather be uniting, that, HEY, we're all trying to do what's right but we are probably reading 2 different things. There's probably no harm in either way and probably textual support somewhere for both methods.

BTW, if there are any LDS or JW out there, please educate me about why you don’t pay your pastors—I’m curious about if certain passages lead you to do so or if it is a cultural custom of sorts. (Or is it just the above posters who don’t pay and it’s an individual church’s decision) I’m just a curious girl! (Also, sorry in advance if I didn't use the right terminology above to describe your religion. By asking the questions in the first place, I am admitting that I know very little of your customs and therefore your terminology as well)

OK—is all cleared up? Are we good? Hope you all have a super day—

Christy

In answer to your question- the LDS church does use the bible, King James Version. We also beleive the Book of Mormon to be scripture. I'm not sure of a specific scripture to support our practice of unpaid ministry. We just beleive the laborors "reward" is blessings from Heavenly Father. Instead of one person or family in our church serving 60-80 hours a week, everyone serves. Some for many hours. I think most latter day saints would say they HAVE been blessed financially for tithing and serving, just not in the form of a salary. You can find out more at www.mormons.org.

 

[txgirl]

Wow, this thread has been so informative that I'm planning on printing it off! We are a Christian family who tithes 10% but definitely some of the questions raised here are worth evaluating. I will say that reading about the Mormon church and the servanthood of all believers is right on! I can say that in most of the Baptist churches where we have been members we are always at a loss for nursery help, sunday school teachers, volunteers of any kind!

I'm not sure how many others would admit the same thing but I must say I am intrigued by the message that we can ALL serve in different capacities in different times and it would make sense to not get burned out, right? My husband and I have been teaching Sunday School for two years and I also do the AWANA program on Tuesday nights and lead a Fun With Faith bible club after school for two different grade levels in my daughter's public school. I am spread way too thin and the need for our Christian brothers and sisters to step up and serve is HUGE!

While we may differ in some of our beliefs (Baptist and Mormon) I would love to see that doctrine spill over to encourage that type of servanthood in our church.

You can minister without compensation monetarily but a lot of churches are not set up that way. I wonder if we will begin to see more of that with the Megachurches gaining recognition and people growing leery of that much money floating around.

Money is the root........I know not of "all" evil but "all kinds". Being a good steward definitely would require me to search the motives and hearts desire of the staff in which I support.

Great thread! I hope it doesn't get locked. I am learning sooooo many things!
Blessings!

 

[tlbwriter]

Money is the root........I know not of "all" evil but "all kinds".

The LOVE of money... not money itself, which is neutral, neither good nor evil.

 

[DMRick]

I'm pretty sure the churches paying $135 grand are large tithing churches. The bigger the churches, they more the head Pastor has to oversee. Obviously (at least in my mind) a church with 700 members should be able to afford a Pastor with that kind of salary, better than our small church of 100. (and I have to admit, I've never met a Pastor getting that kind of salary, but maybe their housing, electricity, gas mileage, etc, is included in that). Certainly the Pastor of a church is worth as much as any head of any place. Obviously they feel their Pastor is worth it. Our board has a way they set up the Pastors salary, to make him at least even with someone who has been on the job for a certain amoutn of time, doing like work in the secular world, and if we could afford to pay him $135 grand, I'm sure they would. The Bible doesn't say you have to be broke to serve. Of course if someone feels led to serve for little, that would be a blessing to any church.

That said, I believe you get people from all walks of life to serve. Who knows when a church will be blessed with someone willing to work for little, just to bring souls to Christ. Why did I post that?..well, the pay may not be a lot to start..but, uh, we are looking for a youth Pastor. Any chance you are from a Nazarene church, and are thinking of locating to Upstate NY LOL?

 

[txgirl]

The LOVE of money... not money itself, which is neutral, neither good nor evil.

you are correct-I forgot that very important word-thanks

 

[LoveToDisney]

Wow, great thread...took me a long time just to read it all so I could post.

Back to the budgeting aspect of giving/tithing...Stewardship and budgeting go hand in hand. A good steward is a good budgeter and as their income increases, they are happy to share with others in need...by giving to their church, their community and those around the world in need.

It is so cool to read these posts and hear the generous hearts. May we all continue to give of our income, our time and our talents with a joyful heart and not get sidetracked into self-serving consumerism.

Regarding those of you who are concerned about tithing and have tight finances right now. Keep an open heart and let God guide you. While you are having a hard time and for a season may need to give less, God at the same time will have someone who is earning way beyond their need and receives joy at giving extra. God see the HEART...no one else can do that, not even the best pastor/elder/priest.

 

[txgirl]

Regarding those of you who are concerned about tithing and have tight finances right now. Keep an open heart and let God guide you. While you are having a hard time and for a season may need to give less, God at the same time will have someone who is earning way beyond their need and receives joy at giving extra. God see the HEART...no one else can do that, not even the best pastor/elder/priest.

What a statement of grace.
Very well said!

 

[mommyoeo]

That said, I believe you get people from all walks of life to serve. Who knows when a church will be blessed with someone willing to work for little, just to bring souls to Christ. Why did I post that?..well, the pay may not be a lot to start..but, uh, we are looking for a youth Pastor. Any chance you are from a Nazarene church, and are thinking of locating to Upstate NY LOL?

I got such a huge laugh out of your post! We'd love to, thanks! Actually, we're delighted to be where we are. I wish you luck on your search. I know it is hard to find the perfect match for a church and find someone who can become part of the family, so to speak.