THRILLED Most DVC'ers are renting @ $12/point now

[Dean]

Originally posted by Nick@ VB+OKW
We are not talking about the occasional renter(cruising,expiring pts,job loss,etc), we are talking about the the members that rent out every year,peak seasons,etc to the highest bidders.
We are talking about posters,who start threads, to get rental prices to go higher so they can make more $$.

And therein lies the problem. How do any of us know the situations of another. How do we know that even the people in question aren't in the situations that some would say OK. That's why I say that one can't use motive for determination, definitely not from a BBS perspecitive and likely not ever. While most of the "ok to rent but not too much crowd" wouldn't admit it, if you took their defintion and applied it to my examples above; most people would fall on the other side of the line. Personally I see no difference in one renting out 800 points to pay for a cruise than one just renting 800 points because they want to. I personally find it hypocritial when someone says it's ok to rent but don't rent too much or for too much $$$. I find it almost as distasteful as those that tell members they shouldn't rent for more than about $6 or so, especially those who aren't members and are trying to rent (trolls).

One thing I didn't emphasize above but meant to was the requirement to stay within occupancy limits. This would imply that at least on some level, DVC cares about this issue.

 

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Dean
First, I think you guys assume I rent out a lot because I defend the position intellectually, you couldn't be farther from the truth if you think that.

Actually I didn't even think you ever rented out your DVC.


Dean,

Yes I believe you are right that we share alot of common ground with our opinions. However, I still believe that 12.1 provides a partial definition of "Comercial Use" and that it is totally at the discreation of the "Association". It would be an interesting court battle if it ever came to that.

I also agree with you that there are far fewer owners who are in that "Comercial Use" zone than many here believe. I would be surpried if the total number of owners curently over the line even gets out of the single digits. However there definitley are a few out there.


Shamus

 

[ripleysmom]

C'mon Dean every regular on this board knows of at least one person who rents their points as a commercial activity. You know it, we know it. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

I know that you do not rent your points out for commercial purposes but there are people on this board who do. You are certainly welcome to defend their right to do as they see fit.

I do take issue with one comment that you made. I don't think that there is ONE single regular poster on this board who has a problem with the DVC owner who rents occasionally. Not one.

It is when we are subjected to the "Let's all charge as much as we can so I can recoup 10% on my investment" posts that people's ire is raised. It is when posters reserve prime weeks to increase their profit margin and auction or rent them for ridiculous prices that we have a problem.

 

[Nick@ VB+OKW]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
C'mon Dean every regular on this board knows of at least one person who rents their points as a commercial activity. You know it, we know it. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

I totally agree.

 

[Dean]

C'mon Dean every regular on this board knows of at least one person who rents their points as a commercial activity. You know it, we know it. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

That's not what I said. What I said was that the criteria had to objective and not have motive or intent. It had to be specific to numbers, number of points, consitency. I'd agree that there are a couple that step over my line of comfort, I've said that before. However, that doesn't automatically make them in the wrong. I'm always amazed how people want to tell other people waht they should do with their things whether it's taxes (confiscatory) or points. Unfortunately this is an emotional discussion for many rather than a factual one.

I do take issue with one comment that you made. I don't think that there is ONE single regular poster on this board who has a problem with the DVC owner who rents occasionally. Not one.

You're certainly welcome to disagree but I know for certain there are a group of members on this board that feel you should NEVER be allowed to rent. Then there's the group that feel you should only rent if you're losing your points or have to cancel last minute. Next the group that feels you should only rent for the yearly fees and so on. And the one's I love the most are the ones that say it's OK to rent as long as it doesn't affect my availability. But don't kid yourself into thinking that there aren't those that feel you should never rent. I've seen a number of people post exactly that over the years and had a couple of interchanges off the board with a couple of them.

It is when we are subjected to the "Let's all charge as much as we can so I can recoup 10% on my investment" posts that people's ire is raised. It is when posters reserve prime weeks to increase their profit margin and auction or rent them for ridiculous prices that we have a problem.

And while I understand the the sentiment, I dont' understand the logic. When I do rent, I've chosen not to reserve first and not to actively reserve the times you refer to just so I can charge more. But that's the way the system is set up. From a system or intellectual standpoint, there's no reason why either should be any worse than any other rental assuming that all members at THAT resort had equal opportunity to reserve. That would exclude special season lists, lottery's and the like. It may leave a bad taste in some members mouth but the price charged nor the time rented has nothing to do with "commercial activity" per se. I can tell you that I'd charge as much as I felt I could reasonably and easily get when I do rent. If that's not ok, choose a weapon and stand opposed. And anone who rents for less than they could get should either have a good reason (like friends or family) or get their head examined.

 

[Muushka]

Gosh, this rang a bell with me:

And the one's I love the most are the ones that say it's OK to rent as long as it doesn't affect my availability.

I really do disagree with this. It goes back to the DVC members making reservations to sell at peak times at the resort. Yes, it certainly does affect some owners who were not able to make their reservation right at 11 months. How sad to try to book your home resort and seeing that time available on Ebay? Really, that seems fair to you?

By the way, I always appreciate your input on these boards. You are always reasonable with your responses and I am curious as to your reasoning on this one point. How can this be justified other that it is a free country and people have the right to do what they want because it is their points (which, as I write, I guess that can be a reasonable answer). Thanks!

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Muushka
Gosh, this rang a bell with me:



I really do disagree with this. It goes back to the DVC members making reservations to sell at peak times at the resort. Yes, it certainly does affect some owners who were not able to make their reservation right at 11 months. How sad to try to book your home resort and seeing that time available on Ebay? Really, that seems fair to you?

By the way, I always appreciate your input on these boards. You are always reasonable with your responses and I am curious as to your reasoning on this one point. How can this be justified other that it is a free country and people have the right to do what they want because it is their points (which, as I write, I guess that can be a reasonable answer). Thanks!

Everyone who owns at that resort has the ability to make reservations at 11 months out. If their personal situation dictates otherwise, that is not the fault of the other members and they should never be penalize for it. And yes it is certainly fair, it's the way the system works. You call at 11 months day by day at the time MS opens if you need something specific. What I can't justify is telling others they have to hold back because someone doesn't know when the kids will be out of school or when they can get off for vacation. And while I understand the emotional response that occurs when you can't get a ressie and see the same thing for rental, intellectually it's no different than any other rental, IMO. As I've qualified a number of times, special season preference lists and lottery's are different because not every member had acccess to the reservations opportunity. And it's the opportunity and not the actual reservation that is the issue, again, IMO.

DVC is certainly not the only system where members compete for prime times/weeks. It happens at every floating time resort in one way or another and there are a number of ways to handle it. Marriott allows multiple week owners to schedule concurrent or consecutive weeks starting at 13 months out while single week owners can only schedule at 12 months out. Do those owners think it's fair, I doubt it. You can gripe or you can do what I did, go buy another week to take advantage. So I reserve two 4th of July weeks every year (so far) and either use them and when I don't, I rent them. So I used the system in place, got the best weeks for my use or for rental. Fair, IMO yes. If the only way I could dispose of my extra DVC points was to reserve the top weeks, you bet I'd do it there also. Fortunately it isn't so I don't when I have extra points.

 

[Disney4ever4569]

Amen Dean.

I posted on this thread (a while ago) and one person also tried to twist my words around. Your absolutly right that the system (right or wrong) is set up for everyone. No one likes people that take advantage of the system, but I put a point of view out there that basically said, supply and demand will dictated the rental prices and everyone can and is going to do what they want to do and I got my head ripped off by someone that didn't agree with that. So much for being happy to hear opposing views. Some people just don't know how to play well with others.

 

[goldilocks_63]

Do you think the rental price will go up for SSR owners....

Can't see anyone wanting to rent in the next few years, because it's so new..... but what about in 2-3 years.

Still $10 / point, or more?

Opinions, no flames, please

 

[ripleysmom]

"What I said was that the criteria had to objective and not have motive or intent. It had to be specific to numbers, number of points, consitency. I'd agree that there are a couple that step over my line of comfort, I've said that before."

Then?


"However, that doesn't automatically make them in the wrong."

Dean, the same threads are started over and over by the same people doing the same practices. You may choose to keep quiet about your discomfort and not say anything when those posters abuse the system (and the DIS I might add), I will not.


"I'm always amazed how people want to tell other people waht they should do with their things whether it's taxes (confiscatory) or points."

Me too, especially when they start threads like this!!


"Unfortunately this is an emotional discussion for many rather than a factual one."

That is your opinion.


"You're certainly welcome to disagree but I know for certain there are a group of members on this board that feel you should NEVER be allowed to rent. Then there's the group that feel you should only rent if you're losing your points or have to cancel last minute. Next the group that feels you should only rent for the yearly fees and so on. And the one's I love the most are the ones that say it's OK to rent as long as it doesn't affect my availability. But don't kid yourself into thinking that there aren't those that feel you should never rent. I've seen a number of people post exactly that over the years and had a couple of interchanges off the board with a couple of them."

Okay please provide a link to those posts from people saying that others should never rent.



"And while I understand the the sentiment, I dont' understand the logic. When I do rent, I've chosen not to reserve first and not to actively reserve the times you refer to just so I can charge more. But that's the way the system is set up. From a system or intellectual standpoint, there's no reason why either should be any worse than any other rental assuming that all members at THAT resort had equal opportunity to reserve."

That's true they do but what if their plans have not been finalized yet? What if they can't get to the phone that day? Someone else who has NO intention of using that unit other than to "realize a 10% return on their investment" has now taken a unit out of inventory.


"It may leave a bad taste in some members mouth but the price charged nor the time rented has nothing to do with "commercial activity" per se."

Maybe not once or twice but when an owner reserves several units at special times each year, something is smelling bad and I don't think it's Animal Kingdom.


"I can tell you that I'd charge as much as I felt I could reasonably and easily get when I do rent."

Feel free to charge what you want. I don't have a problem with it. Just don't start a thread telling all of the other owners that they should be charging the same thing because it will increase your profits.


"If that's not ok, choose a weapon and stand opposed."

If you start threads telling other owners to increase their prices to maximize your ROI then I guess we will stand opposed.


"And anone who rents for less than they could get should either have a good reason (like friends or family) or get their head examined."

Why? Now you are presuming to tell people what they should do with their points. Isn't that what you are opposed to?

 

[ripleysmom]

Disney4ever4569, I "ripped your head off" for telling me I shouldn't be on the thread if I didn't like what the thread was about.


"Some people just don't know how to play well with others."

And telling people that they shouldn't express an opinion about the contents of a thread is an example of that.

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
C'mon Dean every regular on this board knows of at least one person who rents their points as a commercial activity. You know it, we know it. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

{Snip}

It is when we are subjected to the "Let's all charge as much as we can so I can recoup 10% on my investment" posts that people's ire is raised. It is when posters reserve prime weeks to increase their profit margin and auction or rent them for ridiculous prices that we have a problem.

I completely agree. As evident from several previous threads and discussions, I have a problem with for-profit practices of renting prime holiday weeks out on ebay. I see it as harming DVC members overall. I contend it can fall within the term of commercial use if the Board decides to enforce this clause more closely. I have also explained that I have sought the advice of an attorney on this matter, and had this viewpoint confirmed. Regardless of the factual nature and tone that responses to this aurgument attempt, it has not been proven wrong. Only people asserting a presumed level of knowledge and thier own opinions, even after exhuastive debate.

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
ITA.

As mentioned above my objection is when posters who start a thread trying to rally the DVC owners to increase their per point pricing so that they can increase their profits and maximize their ROI.

Do I care what people rent their points at? No.

Do I care when they start telling other owners to increase their prices so that they themselves can make more money? You bet I do!!

I don't usually rally around this point regarding price fixing attempts, but I agree.

However, my problem is with people picking prime holiday weeks and then renting those weeks out on ebay. It may squeak by under the boards current lack of enforcement of commercial use practices, but I still don't care for it and reserve the right to express that dissatisfaction in rental threads, regardless if others dissagree.

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by Shamus
However, I still believe that 12.1 provides a partial definition of "Comercial Use" and that it is totally at the discreation of the "Association". It would be an interesting court battle if it ever came to that.

I contend that anyone claiming it would be a slam dunk for those currently renting a high proportion of the time to non-family or friends using e-bay approaches to win such a court battle is being completely unrealistic and misguiding others. It may not be a slam dunk for either side, but it is certainly not a guaranteed win for those commercial type practices described in several places above, as some have claimed.

 

[DSNY FN]

Very well said Dean I for one would prefer to use my points but for the cruise it makes more sence to pay cash so renting my points will subsidise that and actually make me a few bucks for spending money so as to not make me use any out of my bank account. When I rent our points out I rent them for as mucxh as I can get for them wether it be on E bay or on here. We do not take less than 12 dollars a point and that honestly should be the minimum that points should go fo. People can rent their points at whatever price they want but honestly they are doing themselves an injustice by doing so. I know what I paid for my points and what my dues are so I am going to try and get as large a return on those points as I can no matter who likes it or doesn't like it. We all purchased the points knowing full well that the rental option was available to all of us and if some choose to rent points to pay off loans for them etc I have no problem with that some of the money we made from our points is going to pay off some of the loan and some a couple years worth of dues. IT just means less money coming directly out of my pocket later on and what is the problem with that wouldn't we all like to keep a little more of the money we work hard for.

 

[Dean]

Ripley'smom, you certainly won't find me stating in any thread that we should price fix as I think that is illegal. Anyone can charge what they want, if they charge an amount that's ignorant, they have the right to be ingorant. I only remember a couple of threads about price fixing and the like, most thread's that discuss this issue are actually started by those that are upset with renting, something like "I couldn't get a reservation and now it's for rent somewhere". Yet it is my opinion that some people get so worked up over this matter that they couldn't think straight if they wanted to.

I've always said there were conflicting issues in the POS and it is my informed opinion that the ability to rent is far more protected than a generic "commercial use" issue. But until it's tested in court, which I doubt it ever will be, it's just my opinion, no more and no less. DVC has spoken volumes by ignoring the issue and yes I am convinced we would have heard about it if anything had happened.

As to pointing you to a thread where people have said they are totally against renting, I can't at present and am not inclined to spend hours looking for one that's probably past when the archives go anyway. I know it true and it's up to you if you don't want to believe it. My guess is you'll have someone email or PM you privately that feels that way. But I do think that far left grou is a minority

That's true they do but what if their plans have not been finalized yet? What if they can't get to the phone that day? Someone else who has NO intention of using that unit other than to "realize a 10% return on their investment" has now taken a unit out of inventory.

And your point is? My point is that this situation has absolutely no bearing on this discussion or the other members, PERIOD. It is their personal business.

Maybe not once or twice but when an owner reserves several units at special times each year, something is smelling bad and I don't think it's Animal Kingdom.

That still doesnt' make it against the rules just because some people don't like it. The question is really the legal discussion related ot the POS and it does not address he when plus there would be no way to hold back for rentals while allowing other members to reserve.

"And anone who rents for less than they could get should either have a good reason (like friends or family) or get their head examined."

Why? Now you are presuming to tell people what they should do with their points. Isn't that what you are opposed to?

I'm not telling anyone what they should do with their points and notice I didn't attach a dollar amount. It's everyone's god given right to make mistakes if they want to, even over and over again. What I don't want to happen is have a troll come in and tell people they should only rent for $5-6 pp then look to pick up rentals that way, it's happened before both on DIS and DVCtalk. If one knows they can get more and decide to take less, that's their busines, I just want them to know they have options.

 

[ripleysmom]

"Ripley'smom, you certainly won't find me stating in any thread that we should price fix as I think that is illegal."

Exactly!!


"Anyone can charge what they want, if they charge an amount that's ignorant, they have the right to be ingorant."

Agreed.


"I only remember a couple of threads about price fixing and the like,"

We get at least 2 possibly 3 a year. This thread being one of them. They used to be started by the same person over and over....although that person seems to have slacked of.


"most thread's that discuss this issue are actually started by those that are upset with renting, something like "I couldn't get a reservation and now it's for rent somewhere"."

There are those too with the same opportunists jumping onto the "we should all agree to rent for this price" bandwagon.


"Yet it is my opinion that some people get so worked up over this matter that they couldn't think straight if they wanted to."

Sure they can.....you just don't agree with their point of view.


"I've always said there were conflicting issues in the POS and it is my informed opinion that the ability to rent is far more protected than a generic "commercial use" issue. But until it's tested in court, which I doubt it ever will be, it's just my opinion, no more and no less. DVC has spoken volumes by ignoring the issue and yes I am convinced we would have heard about it if anything had happened."

True which is too bad.


"As to pointing you to a thread where people have said they are totally against renting, I can't at present and am not inclined to spend hours looking for one that's probably past when the archives go anyway. I know it true and it's up to you if you don't want to believe it. My guess is you'll have someone email or PM you privately that feels that way. But I do think that far left grou is a minority "

Nope never ever received a PM or email about not wanting people to rent.


"And your point is? My point is that this situation has absolutely no bearing on this discussion or the other members, PERIOD. It is their personal business."

BUSINESS being the operative word here.


"That still doesnt' make it against the rules just because some people don't like it. The question is really the legal discussion related ot the POS and it does not address he when plus there would be no way to hold back for rentals while allowing other members to reserve."

Could you try rephrasing this paragraph?


"I'm not telling anyone what they should do with their points and notice I didn't attach a dollar amount. It's everyone's god given right to make mistakes if they want to, even over and over again. What I don't want to happen is have a troll come in and tell people they should only rent for $5-6 pp then look to pick up rentals that way, it's happened before both on DIS and DVCtalk. If one knows they can get more and decide to take less, that's their busines, I just want them to know they have options."

I have no problem with that either Dean. People should be fully informed.

 

[Disney4ever4569]

Ripleysmom,

I never told you that you shouldn't be on this thread. You wrote that you you HATE threads like this. The word hate indicates something that you dislike doing very much. I responded by saying that if you "HATE" or dislike something so much then why do it or be on this thread. If you simply said, "I don't agree with the prevailing point of view" or "I have another opinion" then that would have been completely different. I've never had any problem with anyone expressing any point of view.

I hope your more fun at parties then on these message boards.

 

[niks81]

I hope your more fun at parties then on these message boards.

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

Something that always fails to get mentioned in these types of threads is:

The biggest renter of DVC points is Disney Central Reservations. They rent out all those "traded-in" exchange points.

No one really knows how the renting out of all those points affects your ability to secure your desired reservation time. I know I've found cash CRO availability times when no point reservations are available. In fact, based on the use year of the points traded to Disney, Central Reservations may be renting out points before the 11-month window. Do we really know???

DVCers who complain about fellow members renting habits should be questioning Disney's policy about the renting out of traded in points.