THRILLED Most DVC'ers are renting @ $12/point now

[MikDor]

 

[Muushka]

I keep getting flashbacks of 'the great refillable mug debate' as I read this thread.........

 

[jimh13432]

has anybody seen my potholders?

 

[new_yawka]

Originally posted by jimh13432
has anybody seen my potholders?

...But I can rent you mine for $10.39 cents per pot.

 

[JLS]

I really don't understandd why people get SO upset when this topic is brought up. Point rental ultimately is a function of the free market. DVC points rental is a business transaction that has to involve two consenting parties who agree on a price. I am totally fine renting my points for $10, and in fact, we rented to our friends for $8 per point earlier this year to help them out because they were friends. But if someone wants to charge $12 per point and gets it from renters, I think saying "shame on you" or making them feel like somehow they are bad people for charging what the market apparently will bear is ridiculous. If I wanted to sell my BCV points and someone was willing to pay $88 per point for them, is there something wrong with that? Should I make sure that I don't sell my points at any more than what the lowest person is charging because I shouldn't try to make a "profit" off my DVC points?

If people can get more than $10 for their points, more power to them. Its not as if they can be accused of some kind of illicit price gouging when right there on the rental boards are people advertising their points for less.

 

[DSNY FN]

We never let our points go for less than 12 dollars a point no way no how unless we have points about to expire and another DVC friend is going on vacation then we will rent to them for 10 dollars a point. We have this arrangement with a few of our friends that are members and same goes for them with their points.

 

[CWO4DVC]

$10, $12, $14 OR $20/point. If their is an individual willing to pay, so be it. The price will rise in time due to inflation and the market will adjust. If I am not able to use my points this year, look for them on the market for a minimum $12/pt. I'll get the price I request!

 

[Muushka]

Originally posted by JLS
I really don't understandd why people get SO upset when this topic is brought up. Point rental ultimately is a function of the free market. DVC points rental is a business transaction that has to involve two consenting parties who agree on a price. I am totally fine renting my points for $10, and in fact, we rented to our friends for $8 per point earlier this year to help them out because they were friends. But if someone wants to charge $12 per point and gets it from renters, I think saying "shame on you" or making them feel like somehow they are bad people for charging what the market apparently will bear is ridiculous. If I wanted to sell my BCV points and someone was willing to pay $88 per point for them, is there something wrong with that? Should I make sure that I don't sell my points at any more than what the lowest person is charging because I shouldn't try to make a "profit" off my DVC points?

If people can get more than $10 for their points, more power to them. Its not as if they can be accused of some kind of illicit price gouging when right there on the rental boards are people advertising their points for less.

YES!! just like the refillable mugs!!!!

flashback flashback

 

[donaldbuzz&minnie]

Having just turned down offers to rent points to me at $12 and $13 a point, I thought I would post my reasoning on this thread to DVC members who might be interested.

We are thinking of someday buying into DVC, and so would like to try a couple of them on for size, but we aren't desperate to stay in a DVC property over a Disney hotel. There is a lot to be said for mousekeeping everyday, for example, which is the trade-off that must be made for a refrigerator and microwave in a studio, particularly when we factor in the fact that we don't cook on vacation.

Since we aren't going to go to WDW if we have to pay rack rates (or at least would never stay on property), our price comparisons are based on the annual passholder rates we've gotten and will try to get in the future. For example, we stayed in a woods view room at the WL this past winter with a perfect view of Cinderella's castle and the otter pond for a total (I believe) of $132 per night including tax. To be offered the VWL for the same time period at $13 per point would mean that we would be paying $156 a night for a studio. I'm sure the DVC rooms are very nice, and the refrigerator and microwave are good perks, but at that price I can rent a refrigerator for $10 a day and still come out $14 per day ahead, with a much better view and daily mousekeeping.

Plus, while trust is demanded on both sides in a DVC point transaction, and is almost always justified, once I have pre-paid a significant amount of money to a complete stranger, I must continue to rely on that person's good will. This person keeps total control of the reservation, and I have lost all my money if the reservation is pulled back at the last minute. From the renter's standpoint, this is a very big disadvantage when compared to making a reservation with CRO that can be cancelled with no penalty up to 5 days before arrival, and this reality must be factored into any decision I make about the value to me of renting points instead of staying in a Disney hotel.

Just wanted to mention this because I don't want DVC members thinking all non-DVCer's are just trying to make some kind of unfair deal if they don't agree to rent at $12+ per point!

 

[Disney4ever4569]

I wonder who the first DVC'er was to charge $10 a point. There must have been outrage over a double digit charge for a point!!

Like I said before, its a free market. Time will turn the average renting price to $12 per point eventually just like it turned it to $10.

 

[RweTHEREyet]

donaldbuzz&minnie:

There is a lot to be said for mousekeeping everyday,

First, let me mention that I recently rented points for $10.00 and did not feel my renter was looking for a deal. I would rent for $10.00 again, and feel it fair to both parties. I also think if they go for $12.00 that is even better for me, but whatever.

That being said, I just wanted to mention that I have stayed in both a VWL studio and less than a month ago I stayed in a regular WL resort room. I will never again, pay for a regular resort room. You would discover very quickly that you very quickly adjust to not having mousekeeping and that you soon appreciate not having it. It is wonderful to know that you can leave your room exactly as you wish and that no one will be entering while you are gone. It is no big deal to carry your bag of trash down the hall and leave it.

which is the trade-off that must be made for a refrigerator and microwave in a studio, particularly when we factor in the fact that we don't cook on vacation

we don't usually cook while on vacation either, but having the fridge to store your cold drinks and maybe some cheese for your wine and cheese in the evening and then the microwave and toaster to fix a quick breakfast, is a big "food budget" saver, not to mention the time you save trying to grab breakfast on the run. We love going to a character breakfast on each trip, but the rest of the time I can come out a lot cheaper and eat exactly what I want in my studio. Not to mention that it saves time as we can eat while we are getting ready to leave for the day.

The real biggie is that our VWL studio was bigger than the regular room we stayed in. I can honestly say that I am glad we paid big bucks to stay in a regular room in March, it only made me appreciate my DVC so much more. That being said, the WL DVC rooms are my least favorite of all the DVC properties, and I still would have preferred that to staying in the regular resort room.

I also agree with you that it takes a lot of trust to rent. It takes trust on both sides, and I have been on both sides lately, rented out points and rented other points to stay when and where I wanted. As a renter, I was nervous it would be cancelled on me, and it wasn't, my trip went without a hitch. And in my transaction to rent points out, you take the rist that your renter will cancel on you leaving you with points that will expire.

If you ever do decide to rent, let me know, I will help you out if I can. Just be prepared, you will want to join once you have experienced the rooms of DVC.

Sorry to be so long winded.

 

[eileenfk]

I was sure that I read somewhere, that it was against the rules to purchase for the sake of renting out as a business. But I can not remember where I read this, and I can not find it again.


If I were to loose my job , I would try to rent out my points for at least the maintenance fee cost.
I figure I would eventually find a job, but during my slump, it would be a way to hang onto my investment.
In fact, I might rent them for profit. Needing money would motivate me to do that sort of thing.
I would probably auction them on eBay with a starting price of $5.60 (8 cents over my cost per point).
The market would then determine what people were willing to pay.

- Eileen

 

[DSNY FN]

We just rented our next 3 years worth of points and all for 12 dollars US a point. The only reasn we rented was we are not able to go due to my pending knee operation and then we are renting our 2006 points to so we can pay cash for our cruise.

 

[Shamus]

Originally posted by eileenfk
I was sure that I read somewhere, that it was against the rules to purchase for the sake of renting out as a business. But I can not remember where I read this, and I can not find it again.

- Eileen

Well maybe it was similar to this:

From the BWV POS
Article XII
USE RESTRICTIONS
12.1 Personal Use. Except for Units owned by DVD, .....(SNIP)...... Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for comercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Comercial purposes" shall included a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discreation, could conclude constitutes a comercial enterprise or practice. ...... (SNIP)


Shamus

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Shamus
Well maybe it was similar to this:

From the BWV POS
Article XII
USE RESTRICTIONS
12.1 Personal Use. Except for Units owned by DVD, .....(SNIP)...... Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for comercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Comercial purposes" shall included a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discreation, could conclude constitutes a comercial enterprise or practice. ...... (SNIP)


Shamus

Article 13.2 sets up rules which must be followed for a rental.

And artcile V of the restated membership agreement says the following.

5.1 Club Member Rentals. A Club Member may make a reservation to use the Vacation Homes for the Club Members own use, make their use available to family or friends or guests, or rent them solely through the Club members own efforts. DVD’s approval of a rental by a Club Member is not required after a reservation has been made in the renter’s own name, and Club Members are permitted to rent their occupancy rights on terms and conditions that they may establish. No rental assistance is being offered by The TWDW Companies. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy, and the renting Club Member will be responsible for the acts of omissions of the renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Club Member to use the Vacation Home. The TWDC Companies do not in any way represent or promote that a particular Vacation home can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental.

Section VII also states.

7.1 ......Use of the Vacation Homes and facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the personal use of Club Members, their guests, invites, exchangers and lessees and for recreation use by corporations or other similar business entities owning Ownership Interests while staying as a registered guest at the Condominium. Purchase of an Ownership Interest or use of Vacation Homes and facilities of the Condominium for commercial purposes or for any purpose other than the personal use described above is expressly prohibited.

7.1 it would seem supplies a definition of personal use while there is no definition of Commercial use. It would seem also that as many interpret it, the issues on “commercial use” and personal use would be in direct conflict. Courts have held in the past, including in FL, that a company cannot prevent an owner of a condo from renting unless the same provisions apply to ALL parties. Courts have routinely sided with the individual when there are conflicts within a contractual document.

 

[Shamus]

Dean,

The questioned raised by Eileen was if refference to "rentals as a business". Througout the POS are sections setting up the rights and rules regarding rentals. The right to rent your interest in DVC is clearly spelled out and allowed, likewise, Comercial use is forbiddin. The section I quoted is where DVC ties repeated rentals to a Comercial Use at their discreation based upon "Rental Patterns". I believe this is defining "Comercial Use".

I agree that the FL Courts would side with the individual in cases of conflict. I feel that 12.1 is not in conflict with other sections but rather states that the right to rent does not mean the right to "Comercial Use" and goes on to define it. The only questionable part I see is that it is at the Association's discreation as to what "rental patterns" constitiute "Comercial Use".

That being said...........If DVC pressed the issue ....... A person who is consistantly placing rental ads on E-Bay and subsequently booking the resevations would clearly be in violation. I personally do not believe that the FL Courts would side with the individuals in those cases. I am curious if you agree with that or not as you are much more familiar with Timeshare laws than I am

In summary of my opinion ..... "Casual Rentals" are legal and allowed....."Rentals for purpose of a business" are forbiddin and in violation of the agreement.


SHAMUS

 

[Nick@ VB+OKW]

Originally posted by Shamus
A person who is consistantly placing rental ads on E-Bay and subsequently booking the resevations would clearly be in violation. I personally do not believe that the FL Courts would side with the individuals in those cases. I am curious if you agree with that or not as you are much more familiar with Timeshare laws than I am

In summary of my opinion ..... "Casual Rentals" are legal and allowed....."Rentals for purpose of a business" are forbiddin and in violation of the agreement.

I also would like to hear Dean's opinion to the above post.......especially to the owners of DVC that rent out more than they even use...........if they even use DVC at all for themselves.

IMO rentals for purpose of a business, should not be allowed.
I also believe the Florida courts would not side with that individual if they have a long history on E-Bay or the Rent/Trade board.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Shamus
Dean,

The questioned raised by Eileen was if refference to "rentals as a business". Througout the POS are sections setting up the rights and rules regarding rentals. The right to rent your interest in DVC is clearly spelled out and allowed, likewise, Comercial use is forbiddin. The section I quoted is where DVC ties repeated rentals to a Comercial Use at their discreation based upon "Rental Patterns". I believe this is defining "Comercial Use".

I agree that the FL Courts would side with the individual in cases of conflict. I feel that 12.1 is not in conflict with other sections but rather states that the right to rent does not mean the right to "Comercial Use" and goes on to define it. The only questionable part I see is that it is at the Association's discreation as to what "rental patterns" constitiute "Comercial Use".

That being said...........If DVC pressed the issue ....... A person who is consistantly placing rental ads on E-Bay and subsequently booking the resevations would clearly be in violation. I personally do not believe that the FL Courts would side with the individuals in those cases. I am curious if you agree with that or not as you are much more familiar with Timeshare laws than I am

In summary of my opinion ..... "Casual Rentals" are legal and allowed....."Rentals for purpose of a business" are forbiddin and in violation of the agreement.


SHAMUS

We agree more than disagree but I do believe that the sections conflict in the sense that some would like to apply them. I'm also of the opinion that the "commercial use" definition would allow far more rental activity than some of the members here would like to believe. Certainly, if one put out a billboard and opened an office or rented out of an established rental business like are used for condo rentals, we could agree that this would likely be deemed commercial use. I don't think the use of ebay alone or anything similar, could be used to make the determination. As i've said many times, Disney is th proverbial 600# Gorilla so it's entirely possible they could push someone around, that doesn't put them in the right (or wrong for that matter).

My belief's are basically these.

• DVC has set up the definition of personal use as I noted above.
• In another section they state they've limited total points owned to a max of 2000/5000 in part to limit anything other than persona use. I'd say this is another defining component, the number of points in question as defined by DVD.
• There is no definition for commercial use while there are definitions for Personal use.
• It is my belief and understanding that a developer (or other) can't set up rules that only apply to one group in terms of rental. There are certainly rulings on the books (including FL) where developers were not allowed to require a min lenght of time for a rental unless those rules applied to the developer/management company as well.

You need to know that for many this is an emotional arguement and not a factual one. Some people in their heart don't want people to rent so all they can hear/see/speak or write is the info pertaining to limiting rentals and nothing else. It's much like the abortion/right to choose where there's no common ground. In this case the common ground is the POS and legal issues behind timeshare and condo law and even then many ignore the entire package focusing on one item while making assumptions about that one.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Nick@ VB+OKW
I also would like to hear Dean's opinion to the above post.......especially to the owners of DVC that rent out more than they even use...........if they even use DVC at all for themselves.

IMO rentals for purpose of a business, should not be allowed.
I also believe the Florida courts would not side with that individual if they have a long history on E-Bay or the Rent/Trade board.

Nick, I addressed some of this above but decided to go back and answer you directly. First, I think you guys assume I rent out a lot because I defend the position intellectually, you couldn't be farther from the truth if you think that. When's the last time you saw a post or reply on the rent/trade board or a listing on ebay for a rental? Yes I have a running listing on my webpage and tell people I have NO points to rent out about 20 times a week.

One of the problems inherent in this issue is that most people's definition of what's ok and not ok involves intent which IMO has absolutely nothing to do with it. The law doesn't work this way. Is one who rents out half their points to pay for a cruise doing it commercially? Under most who oppose it, the answer is technically yes though many of them wouldn't admit it. They may be renting out 3 years or more worth of points for this so if renting a lot is the definition, this is definitely commercial as some would define it. How about the person that owns 600-800 points and lost their job? If they rent them out rather than selling, is it commercial? Again yes, under some people's definition. Is someone who rents out 20% of their points to cover dues and uses the rest commercial, I think most would say no, and that's my boat most years.

I would agree that there are some people that I am aware of that step over my comfort line and we know some from this board. Still, that doesn't make them afoul of the legal and technical rules just because it leaves a bad taste in someones mouth.

 

[Nick@ VB+OKW]

Originally posted by Dean
First, I think you guys assume I rent out a lot because I defend the position intellectually, you couldn't be farther from the truth if you think that. When's the last time you saw a post or reply on the rent/trade board or a listing on ebay for a rental?

I can only speak for myself on the above quote...............I do NOT imply that you are gulity of anything close to this discussion. Everyone on this board know you travel a lot using your pts.
We are talking about the members that make reservations during "peak times", with no intent to use them, and then put them on E-Bay and the Rent/Trade boards to the highest bidders.

Originally posted by Dean
Is one who rents out half their points to pay for a cruise doing it commercially? Under most who oppose it, the answer is technically yes though many of them wouldn't admit it. B]

We are not talking about the occasional renter(cruising,expiring pts,job loss,etc), we are talking about the the members that rent out every year,peak seasons,etc to the highest bidders.
We are talking about posters,who start threads, to get rental prices to go higher so they can make more $$.