Thoughts on why crowds are lower this summer so far??

[RivShore]

Maybe Disney decided it is a better business plan to be the high end of amusement parks similar to how the automobile, retail and jewelry market is.

I think that is the case but, if you are going to charge Lexus prices, you have to offer better than Toyota service. I think we will see improvements as the labor market loosens but I would love to see a return to the WDW of old that literally wrote the book on great customer service.

 

[Jrb1979]

I think that is the case but, if you are going to charge Lexus prices, you have to offer better than Toyota service. I think we will see improvements as the labor market loosens but I would love to see a return to the WDW of old that literally wrote the book on great customer service.

I agree. IMO they also need to go back to what made them better. That is immersive dark rides like Horizons and World of Motion. Go back to keeping each park having different themes. Other than Animal Kingdom, the rest feel similar. Parks with IP in them.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I'm also fascinated that people say going to Europe is cheaper. We are going to Europe next summer and it's double the cost of Disney for our family. I agree in the comparison of luxury vacations as to why people use it as an example, but if I stayed in a DVC comparison 2 bedroom villa in Italy, it's VERY expensive (just priced this out). Hotels in Rome and Sicily are quite pricey in the summer, plus airfare. Maybe people are going in offseason and to less traveled to destinations in Europe? All I know is, many of the people I talk to are skipping vacation this year due to finances.

I just came back from Europe in May going to multiple countries. The airfare was the most expensive part (airline points getting there, cash getting back home but I counted the cash value for the purposes of the context).

For hotels we did use Hyatt points for London, England, Kronberg, Germany and Malmo, Sweden but Ghent, Belgium (378 euros total for 2 nights with breakfast included), Luxembourg City, Luxembourg (434 euros total for 2 nights add 15 euros per person per day for breakfast for two days and Hamburg, Germany 178 euros for one night then add on I believe 20 euros per person for breakfast for 1 day) were cash. The pricing is absolutely less than Disney and the accommodations are not lesser than overall. London and Hamburg rooms were smaller than a Value would be but London had a balcony terrace to go out to.

Transit via train (how we got around Europe) was also fairly inexpensive overall and I want to say our most expensive was the Eurostar from London to Ghent but we did the mid-tier which was a good amount increase per person from the lowest Economy. Our meals were most expensive in Krongberg, Germany overall with lunch costing 70 euros, dinner costing that as well (times that by 2 people so 140-ish euros for one day) but that's cheaper than meals can get at Disney and we were in a 5 star converted from a castle hotel with a member only/hotel guest only golf course.

When comparing though I think you have to consider what you're comparing to. Of course Rome is expensive and a villa in Italy is going to be expensive but that doesn't mean someone saying going to Europe is cheaper means they aren't true. We stayed on Murano (Venice) last year in July (so high season) on Hyatt points but the cash value was about 500-600 euros per night if you were trying to book within a month or so of staying and closer to 250-300 euros per night if booking multiple months out (for kicks we had kept track of this). But it's Venice which explains a lot of the pricing.

Hamburg I would say while the hotel was fine, not bad really we selected it because it was a crosswalk away from a subway station that connected up with the central rail station. It however was a Holiday Inn and was overpriced for that brand especially with the breakfast add on.

Is it fair to look at what a 2 bedroom DVC villa comparable would be in Europe for price comparisons? I don't think so personally. Space allocation isn't the same as it is in the U.S. We're about to go to Japan in a few months and the hotel rooms are downright palatial in space in Europe compared to what you get in Japan but it's just part of the territory.

Point being you absolutely can be accurate in describing a Disney vacation as being more than traveling/staying in Europe. In 2022 we spent $1,200 for two people on Disney tickets alone (6 day hoppers).

 

[Cybertruck]

I agree. IMO they also need to go back to what made them better. That is immersive dark rides like Horizons and World of Motion. Go back to keeping each park having different themes. Other than Animal Kingdom, the rest feel similar. Parks with IP in them.

Agree but that is not going to happen in Disney controlled parks. Oriental Land Company and Imagineers continue to do this in Tokyo Disney. Their recent additions are exactly what we need with the domestic parks. I also support non-IP rides but no one is going to green light those projects.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Summer crowds have been considered low for years now some lower than other years.

Without park reservations in play this year for the bulk of visitors it is still lower than maybe one might expect. My CM friend has said that just in their personal opinion it's hotter overall than it's been since they've moved there spring of 2019. I don't know how many people are paying attention to that but they did say that right around 4th of July parks were fairly dead with Tron being the deadest they'd seen.

I do think people are vacationing elsewhere, lots of international travel going on and going elsewhere domestically though I think National Parks attendance might have ebbed by now. There may also be a small amount of guests waiting til Epic Universe. For someone like my husband and I who don't get back to Disney too often I'm waiting til Epic Universe opens to go back as we do both so not going to take the vacation time and monies when we can wait unless something comes up like the wedding we went to in 2022 in Disney,

 

[Kingkonig]

Agree but that is not going to happen in Disney controlled parks. Oriental Land Company and Imagineers continue to do this in Tokyo Disney. Their recent additions are exactly what we need with the domestic parks. I also support non-IP rides but no one is going to green light those projects.

I could see a non-IP ride at EPCOT if there is a corporate entity willing to put enough money in to sponsor it (see: refurbishment of Test Track, the origination behind Small World/Peoplemover/Carousel of Progress), but otherwise unfortunately you're right. Their reasoning is sound too though, why bother creating new stories when you've got a massive backlog and entire portfolio of work that has a built in fanbase?

 

[DCLMP]

I just came back from Europe in May going to multiple countries. The airfare was the most expensive part (airline points getting there, cash getting back home but I counted the cash value for the purposes of the context).

For hotels we did use Hyatt points for London, England, Kronberg, Germany and Malmo, Sweden but Ghent, Belgium (378 euros total for 2 nights with breakfast included), Luxembourg City, Luxembourg (434 euros total for 2 nights add 15 euros per person per day for breakfast for two days and Hamburg, Germany 178 euros for one night then add on I believe 20 euros per person for breakfast for 1 day) were cash. The pricing is absolutely less than Disney and the accommodations are not lesser than overall. London and Hamburg rooms were smaller than a Value would be but London had a balcony terrace to go out to.

Transit via train (how we got around Europe) was also fairly inexpensive overall and I want to say our most expensive was the Eurostar from London to Ghent but we did the mid-tier which was a good amount increase per person from the lowest Economy. Our meals were most expensive in Krongberg, Germany overall with lunch costing 70 euros, dinner costing that as well (times that by 2 people so 140-ish euros for one day) but that's cheaper than meals can get at Disney and we were in a 5 star converted from a castle hotel with a member only/hotel guest only golf course.

When comparing though I think you have to consider what you're comparing to. Of course Rome is expensive and a villa in Italy is going to be expensive but that doesn't mean someone saying going to Europe is cheaper means they aren't true. We stayed on Murano (Venice) last year in July (so high season) on Hyatt points but the cash value was about 500-600 euros per night if you were trying to book within a month or so of staying and closer to 250-300 euros per night if booking multiple months out (for kicks we had kept track of this). But it's Venice which explains a lot of the pricing.

Hamburg I would say while the hotel was fine, not bad really we selected it because it was a crosswalk away from a subway station that connected up with the central rail station. It however was a Holiday Inn and was overpriced for that brand especially with the breakfast add on.

Is it fair to look at what a 2 bedroom DVC villa comparable would be in Europe for price comparisons? I don't think so personally. Space allocation isn't the same as it is in the U.S. We're about to go to Japan in a few months and the hotel rooms are downright palatial in space in Europe compared to what you get in Japan but it's just part of the territory.

Point being you absolutely can be accurate in describing a Disney vacation as being more than traveling/staying in Europe. In 2022 we spent $1,200 for two people on Disney tickets alone (6 day hoppers).

One of the biggest expenses at WDW is food and it's not very good overpriced food. Unless you have a car you don't have a lot of options. In Europe there's tons of Cafes, great food and something for every budget.

 

[RivShore]

One of the biggest expenses at WDW is food and it's not very good overpriced food. Unless you have a car you don't have a lot of options. In Europe there's tons of Cafes, great food and something for every budget.

So now we are comparing WDW resort food to the the thousands of amazing food choices you would have in a Paris or Rome? I think this thread has officially jumped the shark.

Sure, we can compare WDW food to Six Flags or Universal or a stadium (something at least remotely similar), but comparing it to the literal food capitals of the world is really a bridge (or shark) too far, i think we would all agree.

 

[Minnie1222]

Thought this video works well with this thread.

Was this from today? It better stays like that when we're coming next week.

 

[Jrb1979]

Was this from today? It better stays like that when we're coming next week.

I think it was from this past weekend.

From a guest standpoint parks like that are great. From a company standpoint, while lower attendance is what they want, I don't think it's to this extent

 

[Mango7100]

So now we are comparing WDW resort food to the the thousands of amazing food choices you would have in a Paris or Rome? I think this thread has officially jumped the shark.

Sure, we can compare WDW food to Six Flags or Universal or a stadium (something at least remotely similar), but comparing it to the literal food capitals of the world is really a bridge (or shark) too far, i think we would all agree.

But I think the point is you pay less for better food in a food city like Rome than you do for mediocre food at Disney. A pizza in Rome is cheaper than at Disney. We just came back from a trip to Montreal and Quebec City and both DH and I said that we spent less on food and beverages over 8 days than we spent on food at WDW last time over 6 days. And that is even with at WDW primarily doing food booths and only one character breakfast.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

One of the biggest expenses at WDW is food and it's not very good overpriced food. Unless you have a car you don't have a lot of options. In Europe there's tons of Cafes, great food and something for every budget.

That's fairly accurate IMO although if talking about this past trip because we were traveling by train we were beholden to what was available a lot of times in train stations if we're getting from place to place however the food was typically inexpensive. But when we were in Paris for a layover last year or in Greece last year (since that country we did several port stops on our own without an excursion) overall the food was quite reasonable by our standards. The only difference was the service charge in Venice (common to Italy) and the charge for water which we encountered nearly everywhere. And yes I agree with @Mango7100 that when talking about cost comparison between a Europe trip and a WDW trip (which was the context of the conversation) there overall is more burden with Disney IMO. You are much more captive in WDW and with that comes the ability to charge more if you want to without having as much ease to get elsewhere.

 

[Minnie1222]

From a guest standpoint parks like that are great. From a company standpoint, while lower attendance is what they want, I don't think it's to this extent.

I've seen lower attendance than this during a September trip 21 or 22 years ago. There were four people infront of the castle. FOUR. We were the only people on most of the rides. That was the only trip where we got to stay in our boat and rode Splash multiple times. If the parks didn't fold then, they are not going to fold now. Attendance at WDW fluctuates throughout the hours anyway. The company's worries or lack thereof is out of our control. I'm just going to seize this low crowd moment and have a good time.

 

[kylenne]

I think travel itself has become more important to many people since the pandemic, because they now have a "don't put it off" mentality. But I think many of those people are choosing cheaper options than theme parks - either because visiting family is a higher priority, other expenses are taking up more of their budgets, or they simply heard great things about national parks, etc. from pandemic era travelers.

So flights can be up and Disney/Universal crowds down at the same time.

They're flying to FL to take cruises, not go to theme parks. Cruising is in a huge boom phase at the moment, Royal Caribbean can't crank out mega ships fast enough and the Caribbean region is shattering records when it comes to cruise passenger volume. Cruising has actually grown to the point where a number of European cities are pushing back and instituting limits on the size and number of ships that can dock at a given time.

Ofc, longtime cruisers are complaining about many of the same things long time Disney parks fans are--price increases, more cutbacks on dining and entertainment, more nickel and diming, fewer perks, etc. But anecdotally, just from the various cruise and non-Disney travel groups I'm in on FB, a LOT of people are shifting to cruising, I have never seen so many first timers posting in these groups. For all of the complaints, cruises are probably the best bang for your vacation dollar out there, since so much is still included with your cruise fare. Even with the premium Disney charges for its ships, we sat and did the math and realized DCL wasn't actually out of our price range like we'd always assumed, given what we spend to stay at deluxe resorts on land trips, and still have to pay oop for food.

 

[RivShore]

But I think the point is you pay less for better food in a food city like Rome than you do for mediocre food at Disney. A pizza in Rome is cheaper than at Disney. We just came back from a trip to Montreal and Quebec City and both DH and I said that we spent less on food and beverages over 8 days than we spent on food at WDW last time over 6 days. And that is even with at WDW primarily doing food booths and only one character breakfast.

But you are comparing food in a diverse large city to food in an amusement park in a captive "bubble". In what alternate universe could they ever be the same?

 

[J-Dog]

But you are comparing food in a diverse large city to food in an amusement park in a captive "bubble". In what alternate universe could they ever be the same?

You beat me to it - I was going to say the same thing.

 

[Minnie1222]

But you are comparing food in a diverse large city to food in an amusement park in a captive "bubble". In what alternate universe could they ever be the same?

Probably in the same universe where WDW is compared to Europe.

 

[DCLMP]

But you are comparing food in a diverse large city to food in an amusement park in a captive "bubble". In what alternate universe could they ever be the same?

I think you missed the point. Maybe people are figuring that if they can afford a Disney vacation they can also afford some of those exotic places on their bucket list. When we were in Zurich last year my son commented on the price of food. I told him to think of it as Disney prices. Zurich is pricey, but if you’ve been to WDW your like “meh”.

 

[Mango7100]

But you are comparing food in a diverse large city to food in an amusement park in a captive "bubble". In what alternate universe could they ever be the same?

You are missing the point. My dollars don’t live in a “alternate universe”. Posters were discussing that Europe is cheaper than Disney vacations sometimes and food is a major cost at Disney that contributes to the overall cost of WDW. Others were saying you can’t compare a European trip to WDW (so therefore you can’t compare cost of the experience). while they are totally different experiences and trips, your credit card doesn’t know that. The dollars you spend don’t differentiate. I was just pointing out Disney food is more expensive and not as good as food you could get on a European trip.

It is absolutely fair to compare costs of a European trip to WDW. People are looking at the numbers and thinking “For 10k I could go to WDW for a week or I could go to Europe and see things I have only read about” No one is saying WDW and Europe are the same “type” of vacation, but they are comparing the overall cost and value. The cost of WDW is rising (as is traveling in general), but the value and “worth it” of WDW is declining for some families compared to other types of vacation.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But you are comparing food in a diverse large city to food in an amusement park in a captive "bubble". In what alternate universe could they ever be the same?

They aren't really comparing the food tit for tat. More like you have X budget and you're comparing vacation destinations. You're going to encounter overpriced so so food at a restaurant right next to the Rialto bridge in Venice (been there done that) but it's a tourist trap and you know it, if you don't want the view of the famous bridge while you're eating you can go down an alley and pay a decent amount less but it's super easy to do so. BUT you may be looking at will your dollars (figuratively speaking) could go further overall elsewhere compared to Disney because you're often not tied down to just tourist traps when you're exploring the world especially if you're going to multiple places. Disney is a vacation destination we all know that but it's also why prices can be a certain way and they don't have to work too hard to keep people there. I'm not griping too hard on Disney's food but it adds up really quick and even with us always having a rental car it sucks a lot of valuable park vacation time to get elsewhere.

While we were in Europe our DISer friends were chatting it up making plans for when one of them was going down there for their trip (several of our DISer friends are now local to Orlando) and I exclaimed that now I wanted to go to Disney to be with them and they said "yeah but you're seeing actual castles" we had a good laugh about that because yeah it was true. Disney isn't Europe, Europe isn't Disney no one is trying to debate otherwise.