This happened in America?

DawnCt1 said:
But it doesn't mean that they don't wish to avail themselves of an opportunity to make more. There is nothing wrong with that. When the province runs out of money at the end of the fiscal year, they find it more socially acceptable to "not be home" than to refuse to see patients for free.

Or perhaps they wanted a double paid vacation? And of course there is nothing wrong with them "moonlighting" on a cruise ship in order to achieve it...but to imply they have to in order to provide for themselves is not true. Perhaps they simply found a "cheap" way to cruise.
 
"LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?" In my view the operative word here is "pursuit". Where I come from the meaning of pursuit does not equal a guarantee of happiness. Rather it means "The act of following with a view to overtake; a following with haste, either for sport or in hostility; as the pursuit of game; the pursuit of an enemy." The idea is to run after, to seek, to expend some energy while attempting to attain something (in this case happiness). Happiness is not a guarantee.
 
Chuck S said:
Or perhaps they wanted a double paid vacation? And of course there is nothing wrong with them "moonlighting" on a cruise ship in order to achieve it...but to imply they have to in order to provide for themselves is not true. Perhaps they simply found a "cheap" way to cruise.

No, Once the province runs out of money, they are not paid for patient visits until that fiscal year ends. One has the choice of seeing patients and not being paid, or finding a job elsewhere. A typical ship physician sees more than 60 pts per day. That is a tremendous load. One particular cruiseline says that a death or two per cruise is not unusual. A cruise line that attracts a lot of elderly passengers has to deal with that scenario. Typically, a boarderline cardiac pt who over indulges, develops CHS and dies. In addition to that, they are responsible of the health and injuries of the crew, many of whom come from countries where they didn't have good preventive care in the first place. If a doc wanted a cruise, he could easily book an inside guarantee cabin.
 
sha_lyn said:
It wouldn't have made it to his desk if the state house had not passed it. I absolutely hate the left wing tactic of trying to ignore that bills must be voted on before a govenor or president signs them.
Too funny. Then Gov. Bush disingenuously claimed credit for a patients' bill of rights' bill that passed over his pocket veto, and now it is argued that it is somehow wrong to hold an elected executive politically accountable for a bill that s/he actually signed! Too Bizaare
 

George Bush will be judged? Guess what, we all will. The Constitution does not guarantee healthcare. And hospitals are a BUSINESS, just like any other business. They have to make money to stay open.
 
Chuck S said:
Or perhaps they wanted a double paid vacation? And of course there is nothing wrong with them "moonlighting" on a cruise ship in order to achieve it...but to imply they have to in order to provide for themselves is not true. Perhaps they simply found a "cheap" way to cruise.

I thought it was to get all those loose women that the ships purser didn't get to first.
 
cardaway said:
I thought it was to get all those loose women that the ships purser didn't get to first.

:rotfl2:
All together now..The Love Boat soon will be making another run..
 
DawnCt1 said:
No, Once the province runs out of money, they are not paid for patient visits until that fiscal year ends. One has the choice of seeing patients and not being paid, or finding a job elsewhere. A typical ship physician sees more than 60 pts per day. That is a tremendous load. One particular cruiseline says that a death or two per cruise is not unusual. A cruise line that attracts a lot of elderly passengers has to deal with that scenario. Typically, a boarderline cardiac pt who over indulges, develops CHS and dies. In addition to that, they are responsible of the health and injuries of the crew, many of whom come from countries where they didn't have good preventive care in the first place. If a doc wanted a cruise, he could easily book an inside guarantee cabin.

It sure seems that if the average Doc in Canada makes $140,000 a year, they could well afford to take an occasional cruise. It may be true they are conveniently "out of town" to not treat patients...it does not mean they MUST take a cruise ship position...a vacation would fill the same purpose. Where (I hear you asking Dawn) did I get the $140,000 figure? From this article:
http://temagami.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/02022001/column.htm
 
Dawn, what province are you speaking of, I'd love to see the statistics? I've never heard of a province running out of money and not paying the doctors and I've lived in Canada my entire life. At my clinic there are just as many doctors at the end of the fiscal year as at the beginning. All the doctors I know live very comfortable lives. I've also read that a cruise ship doctor earns about $5000 - $7000 US a month. If they are seeing 60 patients a day, it seems hardly worth it.
 
damo said:
Dawn, what province are you speaking of, I'd love to see the statistics? I've never heard of a province running out of money and not paying the doctors and I've lived in Canada my entire life. At my clinic there are just as many doctors at the end of the fiscal year as at the beginning. All the doctors I know live very comfortable lives. I've also read that a cruise ship doctor earns about $5000 - $7000 US a month. If they are seeing 60 patients a day, it seems hardly worth it.

I couldn't tell you which provinces. The physicians I spoke with made it sound like a common problem that was through out Canada. Perhaps they block their time off to accommodate that so all facilities are covered. I agree, the patient load on cruise ships hardly seem worth it. The hours are set but they of course see patients after hours for emergencies.
 
Chuck S said:
It sure seems that if the average Doc in Canada makes $140,000 a year, they could well afford to take an occasional cruise. It may be true they are conveniently "out of town" to not treat patients...it does not mean they MUST take a cruise ship position...a vacation would fill the same purpose. Where (I hear you asking Dawn) did I get the $140,000 figure? From this article:
http://temagami.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/02022001/column.htm


If they want to supplement their income, a cruise meets that need. There seems to be a lot of Canadian doctors who fill those positions. When I asked them why, that is what I was told. I have cruised with Canadians who have made a point to tell me how expensive their cruises were because they have to pay in American dollars. BTW, I don't happen to think that $140,000 is a lot of money given the time invested in college, medical school and post graduate training, not to mention the hours spent actually working. It far exceeds 40 hours per week
 
DawnCt1 said:
If they want to supplement their income, a cruise meets that need. There seems to be a lot of Canadian doctors who fill those positions. When I asked them why, that is what I was told. I have cruised with Canadians who have made a point to tell me how expensive their cruises were because they have to pay in American dollars.

Again, I have no problem with them supplementing their income. But don't imply that it is something the MUST do.
 
DawnCt1 said:
I couldn't tell you which provinces. The physicians I spoke with made it sound like a common problem that was through out Canada. Perhaps they block their time off to accommodate that so all facilities are covered. I agree, the patient load on cruise ships hardly seem worth it. The hours are set but they of course see patients after hours for emergencies.

I've never even heard of it happening, let alone be a problem.
 
Chuck S said:
Again, I have no problem with them supplementing their income. But don't imply that it is something the MUST do.


No one "must" go out an make more money but obviously, enough feel they want to and need to because they are finding jobs outside of Canada.
 
This woman died because she couldn't afford the one thing that kept her alive. life support. She didn't have insurance. We all agree on that much. I don't care weather you agree or disagree with what happened.

Health care is not promised to us in the constitution. Should it be? well I don't know. Food isn't promised to us. Shelter isn't promised to us. money isn't promised to us. 10 rights are promised to us in the bill of rights. none of these show up anywhere in it.

This poor woman wasn't going to get any better. She had ten days to live, on life support. The hospital offered to try to get her mother to her, but the family declined. Does that make it right? no. Nothing will make it right because there is a family without a daughter out there. it'll never be right.

Fifteen minutes is a long time to die in. First your breath slows. then when it is cut off your heart slows down and stops and your vital organs shut down and your brain sufficates from blood and oxygen loss. you would probably be blind towards the end of it. it would be painful.

Any side of this there will be someone disagreeing. so I'm not gonna post a side. I'm not going to make anyone disagree. I'm posting on what we all agree on. This is sad, and it probably could have been prevented. I'm not preposing another way to handel things like this, and I'm not posting anti bush slander.

None of us can make a judgement on this unless we have been in teh hospitals or the family's shoes. and hopefully none of us will ever have to.

I really wish my best to teh family, and I am truely sorry that this happened. its never easy to lose someone you love.
 
Sparx said:
This woman died because she couldn't afford the one thing that kept her alive. life support. She didn't have insurance. We all agree on that much. I don't care weather you agree or disagree with what happened.


Fifteen minutes is a long time to die in. First your breath slows. then when it is cut off your heart slows down and stops and your vital organs shut down and your brain sufficates from blood and oxygen loss. you would probably be blind towards the end of it. it would be painful.

.

Sparx, the sad part is, her family would have lost her no matter what. She was terminally ill with no hope of recovery. She could have easily been removed from life support even if she had the best insurance in the world. There is a point in care where it is inappropriate to continue ventilating someone who is terminally ill. With regard to the description of her death. Pts are removed from life support and ventilators every day in every hospital. They are sedated heavily, often with morphine and other similar drugs, as well as sedatives. If she was blind by the end, she wouldn't have been aware, she would have been in a very deep sleep.
 
Geoff_M said:
Perhaps lost in the "Republicans-like-to-kill-poor-people-and-even-more-so-if-they-are-minorities" meme is this thought: In countries that have the sort of nationalized health schemes that critics of the US system often point to as the "solution", would such a terminal end-of-life patient receive indefinite high-end care?
No she would not.
 
I always read these end of life debates with great interest. It is amazing the spectrum of opinions, and information or misinformation we DISers have.

I will speak of my personal experiences.

In general, we are able to tell when someone is dying. All of the information we are able to accumulate form the high level testing we are able to do gives us this ability. Do we know exactly when? Well, obviously not. Are there people who will defy the odds? Of course. But in general, someone with terminal cancer is going to die, and you can usually pin it to within weeks, if not days.

Healthcare is a balancing act. Hospital care is a bigger balancing act. Let's look at it from a different perspective.

Your father is having a heart attack. You call 911, the ambulance comes and he's off to the hospital. He gets to the hospital, and they are not accepting any more amubulances because there is simply no more room for patients in the ER or to be distributed throughout the hospital. The place is full, and yes, hospitals do have a census limit. Some of the reason that your father may not get into the first hospital he gets to while having his heart attack is because there are "X" number of terminally ill patients on ventilators taking up ICU bed space.

Still think that person who we know is dying is more important?

OK. The ambulance takes Dad to the next hospital 10 miles away, where they have room. Dad is seen in the ER, treated as appropriate. Dad needs to be in ICU, but wait...there are no beds because there are 3 terminally ill patients in there on ventilators. So Dad gets to sleep in the ER for 48 hours, on a gurney, in a cubicle the size of a decent walk-in closet, while chaos reigns all around him, because after all, ERs are always chaotic. This, of course, doesn't help his cardiac issues...all that stress etc, but well...we have no choice there are no beds, because many of them are being taken up by terminally ill patients receiving futile medical treatment.

Still think that person who we know is dying is more important??

OK, so 48 hours after admission Dad gets a bed in ICU. Of course, there are 3 terminally ill patients who require quite a bit of care, so Dad doesn't quite as much attention as he wishes he would, since out of the 4 of them, he's the healthiest and has the least requirements.

Still think that person who we know is dying is more important?

And these are the challenges, issues...call them what you want, that face healthcare providers every single day. How do you triage? How do you decide who is more important vs. less important? How do you decide whose case is worth blowing a ton of resources on because they have a chance, and who case is worth letting someone die a comfortable, dignified death because they don't have a chance? And who else will be impacted by your decisions...think back to Dad.

End of life is a hot button topic in this country for one reason...because we don't discuss death openly as being a natural part of life. Because the advances in medicine are leading people to think that healthcare providers can do it all, can save them, can make miracles. Because people think we can make them live forever. I hear it all the time "If they can put a man on the moon, why can't we cure this?"

The poor iwoman in this instance was given as many chances as a terminally ill person could get. She was given 10 days on the vent to see if she would improve. The hospital tried to get her to a facility that offered a more appropriate level of care. The hospital offered to the family to get her mother over here, as was her request, but they pooh-poohed that idea as being too difficult to deal with the red tape in Africa.

I do not personally believe in abortion. I will suppport a woman's right to get one because it is legal in this country. I do not personally believe in murder. I also don't believe in keeping someone with absolutely no quality of life alive. I believe in letting people die with dignity. I believe in trying my best to insure that they do. I believe in trying to make families understand that the last loving thing you can do for someone is to let them go when it is their time to go. A ventilator is exactly that...life support. Without it, she would have died. If she lived in Africa in a village where there were no hospitals or ventilators, she would have died a long time ago. If you are unable to survive for an extended period of time without mechanical ventilation, then you are not "OK", you are not "living"...you are being supported by machines. That is fine for short periods of time...God knows, the mechanics we have in healthcare today have greatly increased our ability to help people. But when it stops being support for a finite period of time for a specific reason, and starts to be the only reason a person is alive, then comes the time to decide quality vs. quantity, life at all costs.

Perhaps my views will land me in Hell someday. Perhaps my participation in keeping dying people comfortable rather than continuing futile treatment will land me a spot closer to the fire. I have seen enough to know that allowing someone to die with dignity, in peace and comfort, is the best thing I can do for them, so I'll take my chances.

I doubt very much that this young lady was allowed to lie there and suffocate and gasp for air for 15 minutes. There is a procedure for taking terminally-ill patients off of a ventilator, which includes medication to relax them, so that they sort of "fade away". It's not a bad way to go.
 
Disney Doll said:
I always read these end of life debates with great interest. It is amazing the spectrum of opinions, and information or misinformation we DISers have.

I will speak of my personal experiences.

In general, we are able to tell when someone is dying. All of the information we are able to accumulate form the high level testing we are able to do gives us this ability. Do we know exactly when? Well, obviously not. Are there people who will defy the odds? Of course. But in general, someone with terminal cancer is going to die, and you can usually pin it to within weeks, if not days.

Healthcare is a balancing act. Hospital care is a bigger balancing act. Let's look at it from a different perspective.

Your father is having a heart attack. You call 911, the ambulance comes and he's off to the hospital. He gets to the hospital, and they are not accepting any more amubulances because there is simply no more room for patients in the ER or to be distributed throughout the hospital. The place is full, and yes, hospitals do have a census limit. Some of the reason that your father may not get into the first hospital he gets to while having his heart attack is because there are "X" number of terminally ill patients on ventilators taking up ICU bed space.

Still think that person who we know is dying is more important?

OK. The ambulance takes Dad to the next hospital 10 miles away, where they have room. Dad is seen in the ER, treated as appropriate. Dad needs to be in ICU, but wait...there are no beds because there are 3 terminally ill patients in there on ventilators. So Dad gets to sleep in the ER for 48 hours, on a gurney, in a cubicle the size of a decent walk-in closet, while chaos reigns all around him, because after all, ERs are always chaotic. This, of course, doesn't help his cardiac issues...all that stress etc, but well...we have no choice there are no beds, because many of them are being taken up by terminally ill patients receiving futile medical treatment.

Still think that person who we know is dying is more important??

OK, so 48 hours after admission Dad gets a bed in ICU. Of course, there are 3 terminally ill patients who require quite a bit of care, so Dad doesn't quite as much attention as he wishes he would, since out of the 4 of them, he's the healthiest and has the least requirements.

Still think that person who we know is dying is more important?

And these are the challenges, issues...call them what you want, that face healthcare providers every single day. How do you triage? How do you decide who is more important vs. less important? How do you decide whose case is worth blowing a ton of resources on because they have a chance, and who case is worth letting someone die a comfortable, dignified death because they don't have a chance? And who else will be impacted by your decisions...think back to Dad.

End of life is a hot button topic in this country for one reason...because we don't discuss death openly as being a natural part of life. Because the advances in medicine are leading people to think that healthcare providers can do it all, can save them, can make miracles. Because people think we can make them live forever. I hear it all the time "If they can put a man on the moon, why can't we cure this?"

The poor iwoman in this instance was given as many chances as a terminally ill person could get. She was given 10 days on the vent to see if she would improve. The hospital tried to get her to a facility that offered a more appropriate level of care. The hospital offered to the family to get her mother over here, as was her request, but they pooh-poohed that idea as being too difficult to deal with the red tape in Africa.

I do not personally believe in abortion. I will suppport a woman's right to get one because it is legal in this country. I do not personally believe in murder. I also don't believe in keeping someone with absolutely no quality of life alive. I believe in letting people die with dignity. I believe in trying my best to insure that they do. I believe in trying to make families understand that the last loving thing you can do for someone is to let them go when it is their time to go. A ventilator is exactly that...life support. Without it, she would have died. If she lived in Africa in a village where there were no hospitals or ventilators, she would have died a long time ago. If you are unable to survive for an extended period of time without mechanical ventilation, then you are not "OK", you are not "living"...you are being supported by machines. That is fine for short periods of time...God knows, the mechanics we have in healthcare today have greatly increased our ability to help people. But when it stops being support for a finite period of time for a specific reason, and starts to be the only reason a person is alive, then comes the time to decide quality vs. quantity, life at all costs.

Perhaps my views will land me in Hell someday. Perhaps my participation in keeping dying people comfortable rather than continuing futile treatment will land me a spot closer to the fire. I have seen enough to know that allowing someone to die with dignity, in peace and comfort, is the best thing I can do for them, so I'll take my chances.

I doubt very much that this young lady was allowed to lie there and suffocate and gasp for air for 15 minutes. There is a procedure for taking terminally-ill patients off of a ventilator, which includes medication to relax them, so that they sort of "fade away". It's not a bad way to go.

Disney Doll, I completely agree with you.
 
Curious--is that $140,000 Canadian dollars? If so, not all that much for an average doc"s salary. Especially considering that most of them are weighed down with huge debt from med school.

Disney Doll, well put and rational.
 

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