This happened in America?

[catherine]

We already know that in such countries those patients go right to hospice. Its comfortable and humane. We also know in those countries, that those people, who could continue to be productive on some level are denied organ transplants over a certain age, and dialysis. There are lots of Americans who visit their dialysis clinic three times a week and are a pleasure to their families, go to work, care for children, etc. They would be relegated to hospice to die of renal failure. That's not a pleasant death.

I don't know which countries that you are referring to. In the UK we have nationalised healthcare and I can assure you that elderly people who require dialysis receive it. No one is relegated to a hospice to die of renal failure. That includes people who do not have any money or resources!

 

[Chuck S]

There were no plans to bring her from Africa, and I'm betting the family couldn't afford the trip.

Chuck, that $140,000/$120,000 figure is an average. That means there's a whole bunch of docs making a lot less than that. .

It also would then mean that there's "a whole bunch of docs" making more than that...hence the reason it is called an "average".

 

[BuckNaked]

How about, "LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"

That's the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution...

 

[Tigger_Magic]

That's the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution...

Minor technicality. It's still a valid promise or guarantee, right?

 

[AllyandJack]

Life is never a guarantee. As for Liberty....well, until the government stops taking over 40% of what DH and I earn, that one is a big lie, too.

I don't think it's an insurance/no insurance issue. I honestly believe that Blue Cross would cut me off at some point. I also believe that Medicaid/Medicare would, too. So, whether you have private insurance, no insurance, or government insurance, at some point, you will most likely be cut off and then it's up to the hospital.

I do agree that the family should have had more notification though....if they were coming from a long distance, they should have been given at least 30 days to gather funding and make plans to go to the hospital. Not many people can acquire thousands of dollars and make travel plans in 10 days. The taxpayers shouldn't pay to keep her alive indefinitely, but there has to be some level of compassion and reason.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

I do agree that the family should have had more notification though....if they were coming from a long distance, they should have been given at least 30 days to gather funding and make plans to go to the hospital. Not many people can acquire thousands of dollars and make travel plans in 10 days. The taxpayers shouldn't pay to keep her alive indefinitely, but there has to be some level of compassion and reason.

How much more compassion and reason should the hospital have exercised. The hospital already "contacted 12 facilities including hospitals, long term acute care facilities and nursing homes, all of whom declined to accept the patient.” The hospital also offered to hire an immigration attorney free of charge to help bring the woman's mother from East Africa. Relatives, however, said the East African process was too lengthy.

Seems to me that the hospital went above and beyond the call of reasonable and compassionate. JMO, but this is just another case of the DailyKos grinding another politically partisan axe.

 

[AllyandJack]

I was just reacting to the time limit....I read in one of the posts that it was 10 days (is that wrong?).

To me, that doesn't seem like enough time to gather yourself together and arrange for such a long trip.

I don't disagree with the hospital's ultimate decision, but on the family side of it, I don't see how giving 30 days instead of 10 days is such a hardship. After that, presume the family isn't coming and do what has to be done.

 

[Olaf]

It also would then mean that there's "a whole bunch of docs" making more than that...hence the reason it is called an "average".

Ya think?

All I'm trying to say is that there's going to be plenty of doctors, pulling salaries, that might make them interested in working on a cruise ship.

 

[BuckNaked]

Minor technicality. It's still a valid promise or guarantee, right?

An ideal, but not a right.

Good to see ya again!!

 

[sodaseller]

Ya think?

All I'm trying to say is that there's going to be plenty of doctors, pulling salaries, that might make them interested in working on a cruise ship.

And there will be some who feel the need for more income if they made 3X that much. Emptiness can do that. But it's a nonpoint. This whole argument evolved because of the silly argument that Canadian physicians were forced to take on extra work due to the penurious circumstances they existed in due to their meager salaries. That's a bizarre argument that simple shame should keep from being advanced. It still astounds me that years of Randian agitprop have a produced a soulless segment of the populace that cannot feel empathy for the truly indigent but can decry the condition of those compelled to make do on six figure salaries. It is truly a looking glass world we live in.

 

[Disney Doll]

I don't think it's an insurance/no insurance issue. I honestly believe that Blue Cross would cut me off at some point. I also believe that Medicaid/Medicare would, too. So, whether you have private insurance, no insurance, or government insurance, at some point, you will most likely be cut off and then it's up to the hospital.

You are correct. Every health insurer has a maximum, catastrophic amount that they will pay and that is it. Now granted, that amount is high, and in general most of us will never come close (thank God!) but on occasion someone does come quite close. I believe Christopher Reeve was pretty close by the time he died, as I seem to recall an interview with he and his wife where they were discussing the topic and felt fortunate to have the financial wherewithal to pay for his care should his insurance run out.

This is not a race issue, it is not even a political issue (though most folks try to turn it into that). It is a healthcare issue. And it is a healthcare issue that goes on many times every day in this country. Some of them receive press, usually if the story suits someone's political agenda, and some of them do not. Terri Schiavo satisfied the agenda for the Conservatives. This young lady satisfies the agenda for the Liberals, which is why we are hearing about them. Terri also had parents who worked tirelessly to keep her name and therefore their own notoriety alive.

As I said before, healthcare is a balancing act. We are constantly triaging, looking at who needs what, who needs what level of care, who is most in need of the resources we have available? Think of the organ transplantation system. The person with the most need gets the organ, because the resources are limited. Well, it is the same in the general healthcare system...our resources are limited, and therefore we have to do the greatest good for the greatest number with what we have.

Years ago, we had a seminar on disaster care. The gentleman who gave the lecture was a fabulouos speaker, had worked for FEMA, the Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders... he had vast experience in disaster preparedness and response. His biggest point was...you don't waste resources on people you can't save. We did a mock disaster triage. He showed us pictures of injured people....some very seriously, some not. There are 3 levels of triage in a disaster...red, which is fatal so don't waste resources or time, yellow which is pretty sick so give it a shot but if they take a turn for the worse then they become a red, and green which is save them. A dramatic example, because day to day hospital care is not a disaster per se, but nonetheless, the issues about resources, and decisions about keeping a terminal person alive and therefore maybe not being able to help a viable child do exist.

After having read several articles, some less slanted than the OP's original link, it doesn't seem to me that there was much more the hospital could have done or offered this woman or her family. We are fortunate to have some of the best medical care in the world here. But nonetheless, healthcare providers aren't God, there is only so much we can and should do.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

After having read several articles, some less slanted than the OP's original link, it doesn't seem to me that there was much more the hospital could have done or offered this woman or her family. We are fortunate to have some of the best medical care in the world here. But nonetheless, healthcare providers aren't God, there is only so much we can and should do.

The last sentence says it all beautifully. Strip away the attempts to leverage this for partisan political gain and this is what you are left with. There is no right to indefinite, unpaid health care. Charity can go only so far, especially for someone who has already been determined to be terminal.

If you wonder why healthcare costs and insurance premiums are skyrocketing, this is just one of the reasons why. Somewhere, somehow all healthcare has to be paid for. There is no such thing as a free lunch or free healthcare.

 

[Tiggernut_jadie]

I don't know which countries that you are referring to. In the UK we have nationalised healthcare and I can assure you that elderly people who require dialysis receive it. No one is relegated to a hospice to die of renal failure. That includes people who do not have any money or resources!

I was thinking exactly the same Catherine! Mind you considering DawnCT's 'evidence' about Canadin doctor's moonlighting on Cruise ships was based on a short chat with someone on the ship, I suppose she might have spoken to someone about it once!!!

I'm appalled at the lack of compasion shown by some posters on this thread. Escpecially 'you get waht you pay for!' It would be very interesting o know how many people who have posted on this thread would conside themselves christian?!!!!!!

I'm a nurse and can assure anyone that this woman would NOT have been treated in this way in the UK! IF and when the decison was made to remove her breathing tube, it would have been in consultation with the family.

There seems to be a feeling that because the family said the african authorities would take too long to sort out the visa etc that this in some way means they weren't interested in trying to do something about it. I personally read this to mean that the family could not afford to pay for the mother to come from Africa even with the hospital's offer to pay for a lawyer. If the family had been given more than 10 days, they may have been able to find the funds from somewhere. I don't think people in the US realise how long winded a process it is to get a visa to come to your country - particularly from countries such as Africa. The lady's mother would have been lucky to have even got an appointment at the embassy in that time!

 

[Galahad]

It still astounds me that years of Randian agitprop have a produced a soulless segment of the populace that cannot feel empathy for the truly indigent but can decry the condition of those compelled to make do on six figure salaries.

Not to take away from the extraordinarily valid point about lack of compassion, this impressively constructed sentence does illustrate how agitprop can come from anywhere; old, cynical, atheist, chain-smoking authors notwithstanding.

 

[BuckNaked]

I'm appalled at the lack of compasion shown by some posters on this thread. Escpecially 'you get waht you pay for!' It would be very interesting o know how many people who have posted on this thread would conside themselves christian?!!!!!!

You may not like the sentiment, but it's true - you do get what you pay for. Like it or not, health care is a commodity, and like any other commodity, those that are willing and able to pay more will get a better "product".

 

[sha_lyn]

I was just reacting to the time limit....I read in one of the posts that it was 10 days (is that wrong?).

The notice that they would discontinue life support was for 10 days. She was on the ventilator for 15 days prior to that.

I will ask this again.... HOW LONG SHOULD SHE HAVE BEEN LEFT ON THE VENTILATOR...WEEKS...MONTHS...YEARS? HOW MUCH OF THE HOSPITALS RESOURCES SHOULD HAVE GONE TO HELP SOMEONE WHO HAD NO CHANCE OF SURVIVING, WHEN THE $$ COULD GO TOWARD HELPING SAVE A LIFE OR MANY LIVES

 

[chobie]

I'm appalled at the lack of compasion shown by some posters on this thread. Escpecially 'you get waht you pay for!' It would be very interesting o know how many people who have posted on this thread would conside themselves christian?!!!!!!

I'm sure the Christians could justify this position. Isn't there something in the bible about "getting what you paid for"?

 

[sha_lyn]

nope not Christain

I'll ask again... for those of you that hate "you get what pay for"

How long should she have been left on a ventilator with zero chance of recovering?
How many people are you will to let die that could live, when money and resources are going to keep some one alive that has no chance what so ever of recovering.

IMHO that is the position that lack compassion.

 

[DawnCt1]

And there will be some who feel the need for more income if they made 3X that much. Emptiness can do that. But it's a nonpoint. This whole argument evolved because of the silly argument that Canadian physicians were forced to take on extra work due to the penurious circumstances they existed in due to their meager salaries. That's a bizarre argument that simple shame should keep from being advanced.

So then, we should assume that Canadian docs staff cruise ships because of "emptiness". Do tell how you plan to advance that arguement? I know they relish seeing 60 plus patients per day and that is where they can get the biggest patient load.

 

[JennyMominRI]

nope not Christain

I'll ask again... for those of you that hate "you get what pay for"

How long should she have been left on a ventilator with zero chance of recovering?
How many people are you will to let die that could live, when money and resources are going to keep some one alive that has no chance what so ever of recovering.

IMHO that is the position that lack compassion.

I never commented on this case,because I don't feel informed enough about these issues to comment on a specific case,plus I feel like many posters with medical experience brought up some good points
I just wonder how far the *you get what you pay for* thing goes.. Do people who have no insurance get what they paid for...nothing..I'm not talking about life support here,but the idea that if you have no medical insurance you get NO treatment.. I assume that's *not * what you mean.. Not everyone without insurance is poor either.. Often people with AIDS can't even get insurance