Third party commercial renters

[tx911]

It appears from reading further comments in respect of the cancelled reservation on FB, that the owner, being suspected of ‘commercial renting’ not only had five reservations cancelled, but the contract purchase was actually voided by Disney.

I’m not sure that anything in the MS POS mentions voiding a purchase! The term ‘lock-out’ certainly doesn’t seem to cover it.

I do feel that where there are apparently such severe consequences, Disney ought to clarify the rules so that owners can make sure they don’t fall foul of them. At the moment owners are at the whim of DVC as to what they consider to be commercial.

To me it's simply:
Using points for my or my family's vacations = personal
Selling points to make money = commercial.

Anyone who wants to test Disney does so at their own risk at this point. As Brian Noble says, fighting it in court will likely be a losing proposition, and an expensive one.

 

[GoingSince1990]

.

To me it's simply:
Using points for my or my family's vacations = personal
Selling points to make money = commercial.

I guess your interpretation differs from Disney’s, given that members renting out their points is explicitly permitted by them.

 

[tx911]

I guess your interpretation differs from Disney’s, given that members renting out their points is explicitly permitted by them.

Yes, clearly they will want to see a pattern of commercial activity before they take action.

I'm sure anyone is safe renting some, but I would not want to test where the line is.

 

[MarkNC2Disney]

Screw the renters / rental sites locking up hard to book rooms (e.g., AKV value) with spec rentals at massive profits.

Keep going, Disney.

 

[tx911]

.

Screw the renters / rental sites locking up hard to book rooms (e.g., AKV value) with spec rentals at massive profits.

Keep going, Disney.

Yep, I for one am glad to see this.

At least a seed of doubt will be planted for someone who is renting all or most of their points.

I most definitely don't want to see renting vanish entirely, but it is being abused.

 

[CWTC]

Yes, clearly they will want to see a pattern of commercial activity before they take action.

Agreed. The component that I don’t think we will ever see is what steps did DVC take with the member before canceling the reservation. Although I have no evidence to back this up, I feel like DVC would have sent out a warning to the member before taking the steps outlined in the FB post. Maybe I’m wrong.

It’s unfortunate because renters have no way of knowing if the member rents their points once every so often or regularly - I presume this makes all rentals feel risky.

We have never rented our points out so we really don’t have a stake in this but I do feel bad for the renters who have lost their reservations.

 

[tx911]

Agreed. The component that I don’t think we will ever see is what steps did DVC take with the member before canceling the reservation. Although I have no evidence to back this up, I feel like DVC would have sent out a warning to the member before taking the steps outlined in the FB post. Maybe I’m wrong.

It’s unfortunate because renters have no way of knowing if the member rents their points once every so often or regularly - I presume this makes all rentals feel risky.

I know I'd feel pretty uncomfortable right now if I was renting half or more of my points.

 

[MarkNC2Disney]

but it is being abused.

It certainly is, with impunity, and in direct competition with Disney.

 

[MarkNC2Disney]

I wouldn’t care one bit if rental sites aggregated a pool of points and played the matchmaking game. But to walk reservations 24/7/365 to have an endless supply of high demand rooms for spec rentals is clearly obnoxious behavior. They’ve successfully scaled the practice, and I hope the mouse crushes their business.

 

[Genie+]

It’s unfortunate because renters have no way of knowing if the member rents their points once every so often or regularly - I presume this makes all rentals feel risky.

We rented points many times before buying DVC and even after.

This current situation makes me more inclined to ignore any rental options that appear to be unloading many points into the market, like somebody on facebook with many different home resorts and/or high amount of points, or somebody that keeps renting their whole contract year after year (like can be found here through history and see the only username activity is renting the same 500 points the last 5 yrs straight). It’s all somewhat risky but those seem to be the riskiest, enough for me to pass them up even if best pricing.

 

[DonMacGregor]

There is some very interesting POS language quoated in that Facebook post. I've asked a mod to review it to verify it is a direct and accurate quote from the documents, and if so, I've asked for permission to post the language here (not a link to Facebook, or any other site, just a quote from the POS that has been verified to be accurate and direct).

We shall see.

 

[BeachClub2014]

At least a seed of doubt will be planted for someone who is renting all or most of their points.

It’s unfortunate because renters have no way of knowing if the member rents their points once every so often or regularly - I presume this makes all rentals feel risky.

I know I'd feel pretty uncomfortable right now if I was renting half or more of my points.

Good points!

I hope this FB story is accurate and that DVC enforces the rules, whatever they may be, and cancels reservations for those in violation. If true, it punches a hole in the argument for just renting points yearly versus buying your own contract. There seems to be a definite risk in that approach.

 

[crisi]

Doesn’t mean the contract was closed though, does it? It could have been a new contract that was doing the whole 90 day thing? That to me is what the word “void” would refer to because once a contract is owned, DVD would have to take it back legally in some way and that word doesn’t seem to fit.

Its second hand, the broker in question - unless they owned the contract, doesn't have first hand information and if they own the contract can spin it how they want. They may be using "void" to mean "locked our points on our brand new contract and forced us to sell for violation of the terms." Not everyone chooses to use, or honestly can use, exact language.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Here is the language I mentioned from the POS that was quoted in the Facebook post under discussion (approved for posting). The first two paragraphs have been posted in the past, but I don't remember seeing the third paragraph before (or at least not in its entirety). It seems to provide some reasonably detailed information regarding the enforcement of the commercial renting policy:

Commercial Use Policy. The Disney Vacation Club (DVC) Public Offering Statement makes it clear that DVC memberships are intended for personal vacation use. The Declaration of Condominium and the Membership Agreement for the Resort expressly limits the use of Ownership Interests to personal use and prohibits use for “commercial purposes,” – a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board of the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or activity.

DVC Members may make as many reservations as they desire. However, if, in any 12-month period, a DVC Member desires to make more than 20 reservations, the DVC Member shall be required to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all of the reservations made by the DVC Member in such 12-month period are for the use of accommodations by the DVC Member, the DVC Member’s family and/or the DVC Member’s friends (collectively, “Personal Use”), and not for commercial purposes. If, in any 12-month period in which a DVC Member attempts to make more than 20 reservations but is unable to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all such reservations are for Personal Use and not for commercial purposes, all reservations in excess of the first 20 reservations shall be presumed to be the use of Vacation Accommodations for commercial purposes in violation of the Declaration and the Membership Agreement (the “Multiple Reservation Rule”).

Enforcement of this policy will be the responsibility of DVC Member Services as follows. For each reservation made by a DVC Member, Member Services shall determine, before confirming the reservation, the number of reservations made by such DVC Member which are occurring or have occurred in any rolling twelve-month period in which the reservation then being made will occur. If, as a result of Member Services’ review of the DVC Member’s reservation history, the reservation the DVC Member is then attempting to make violates the Multiple Reservation Rule and the DVC Member has not established, or cannot then establish that all of the DVC Member’s reservations, including the reservation then being made by the DVC Member, are for Personal Use, DVC Member Services will not honor or confirm the reservation and the DVC Member shall be advised that the reservation violates the Multiple Reservation Rule and the prohibition on use of Vacation Homes for commercial purposes. For reservations canceled for violating this policy, the cancellation shall be deemed to be a cancellation by the DVC Member and the provisions of the Home Resort Rules and Regulations relating to cancellations (including, without limitation, Sections 5(d), 13 and 14) shall apply.

 

[crisi]

To me it's simply:
Using points for my or my family's vacations = personal
Selling points to make money = commercial.

Anyone who wants to test Disney does so at their own risk at this point. As Brian Noble says, fighting it in court will likely be a losing proposition, and an expensive one.

I certainly wouldn't be shy about renting out my 150 points the way I've done so it in the past. The point number is small, we only have rented once in 25 years. We own BWV, and when I rented, I refused to rent during the last quarter of the year and refused to rent a standard view studio. I think I ended up renting for a two bedroom preferred view in May. To me, renting at a "per point" rental and not a "per reservation" rental, the 200+ points I rented out netted me the same if I went for three standard view studios over F&W or one two bedroom preferred view in May - and the one two bedroom preferred view in May had the advantages of being easier to book, and more considerate of others on the membership.

 

[JackosinDIS]

Here is the language I mentioned from the POS that was quoted in the Facebook post under discussion (approved for posting). The first two paragraphs have been posted in the past, but I don't remember seeing the third paragraph before (or at least not in its entirety). It seems to provide some reasonably detailed information regarding the enforcement of the commercial renting policy:

I have seen this previously in the 2007 update to the POS. Yes, it provides some reasonably detailed information, but I think the consensus is that this wording is no longer applicable as it does not feature in any of the current documents.

 

[GoingSince1990]

I certainly wouldn't be shy about renting out my 150 points the way I've done so it in the past. The point number is small, we only have rented once in 25 years. We own BWV, and when I rented, I refused to rent during the last quarter of the year and refused to rent a standard view studio. I think I ended up renting for a two bedroom preferred view in May. To me, renting at a "per point" rental and not a "per reservation" rental, the 200+ points I rented out netted me the same if I went for three standard view studios over F&W or one two bedroom preferred view in May - and the one two bedroom preferred view in May had the advantages of being easier to book, and more considerate of others on the membership.

For someone who owns 150 points, clearly bought for personal use, the chances of Disney coming after them for renting out their points once in a while is probably lower than the chance of being hit by a meteorite while riding the Skyliner.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I have seen this previously in the 2007 update to the POS. Yes, it provides some reasonably detailed information, but I think the consensus is that this wording is no longer applicable as it does not feature in any of the current documents.

Yeah, it dates back to the 2007 POS, but I wanted to include that third paragraph specifically it as it is seldom included in other quotes (but quoted everything for fear of being accused of selective editing).

I'm not sure the third paragraph needs to be included in the POS anyway as it simply provides information on how DVC will proceed, once a determination has been made that commercial renting has occurred. The member isn't actively involved in any step in the enforcement process (there's no "the member shall then be entitled to" language) and no notification is required, so the specific steps that DVC takes really doesn't matter as they enjoy the right to define that process as they see fit (but the process seems to be pretty straightforward and logical).

At the very least, it suggests that DVC has had in place, since at least sometime prior to 2007, a protocol for determining violations of, and enforcement of, the commercial use prohibition, whatever that process might look like today.

 

[Sandisw]

I have seen this previously in the 2007 update to the POS. Yes, it provides some reasonably detailed information, but I think the consensus is that this wording is no longer applicable as it does not feature in any of the current documents.

One thing I did think of is that the POS updates from the past are not available so since it did exist, and would have been an amendment, could be why?

It’s definitely not part of the current MS POS.

 

[JackosinDIS]

One thing I did think of is that the POS updates from the past are not available so since it did exist, and would have been an amendment, could be why?

It’s definitely not part of the current MS POS.

Interestingly, the POS for BCV has the following wording after the usual paragraph on commercial purpose:

“The Association has adopted a policy regarding what constitutes a commercial enterprise, practice or purpose, which policy is a record of the Association and may be reviewed upon request”

I’m going to ask for a copy of this policy.