Third party commercial renters

[sndral]

…
Yes, the rental broker is a business, but the DVC contract applies to the membership and an owners vacation interest, it does not apply to what a business owner, who may not even own DVC, is doing. That is why DVC can’t shut down a rental broker from assisting owners in renting their reservations.
…

I’ve mentioned this before when these commercial renting discussions come up, while DVC cannot proceed against non owner rental brokers under a breach of contract legal theory, they could theoretically sue them on a tort law theory of interfering with DVC’s contracts w/ owners and/or for inducing said owners to breach their contracts.

 

[Sandisw]

I’ve mentioned this before when these commercial renting discussions come up, while DVC cannot proceed against non owner rental brokers under a breach of contract legal theory, they could theoretically sue them on a tort law theory of interfering with DVC’s contracts w/ owners and/or for inducing said owners to breach their contracts.

They possibly could as long as they include that criteria for determining that using a broker to rent reservations, even one of them, turned it into a commercial enterprise..

That’s why we need DVC to share the updated policy, if it is not still the 2007 version. I actually even think that owners should be given the terms and conditions for rental rights and it should be on the website, just like the home resort rules and regulations.

Now, they have given some examples in RIV, CFW, and presumably VDH POS documents that regular use of a rental site might indeed be one they could use,,,but they did use the world regular so my guess is they’d include some reasonable guidelines,

And, if they really wanted to add the rule that brokers cant rent their own reservations, since they mention maintaining a website csn be seen as an attempt, it seems an easy one,

So you have to ask why they don’t? All I can think of is the enforcement piece is a sticking point because I don’t believe they can force an owner to sell?

Seems, though, suspensions of memberships would be enforceable. I hope I get something from them this week!

 

[BuzzLightyr]

I wonder why Disney doesn't just take a heavier hand and buy back points to rent themselves.

You already have magical beginnings to create a point inventory for DVD to manage.

You already have the tools to sell one time use points.

You can create a reverse tool for Disney to buy one time use points. This can be at similar prices as the brokers.

Disney can build a script to scrape the cheap inventory for themselves and sell those rooms for cash.

If Disney wants to price discriminate (rent at lower prices than online cash retail) they can always release inventory to the point brokers to sell, or offer targetted upgrades to hotel bookings just like a bid-up program on a plane or a train.

Disney can easily out some of these point brokers out of business by being their own broker.

 

[lowlight]

I’ve mentioned this before when these commercial renting discussions come up, while DVC cannot proceed against non owner rental brokers under a breach of contract legal theory, they could theoretically sue them on a tort law theory of interfering with DVC’s contracts w/ owners and/or for inducing said owners to breach their contracts.

100% they could. As I mentioned earlier, DirecTV annihilated people making TV smart cards for items that had nothing to do with DirecTV. If you are assisting people in infringing on contracts, you aren’t an innocent party.

 

[crvetter]

IMO, the easiest and least expensive way to minimize spec renting is to make each change of lead guest be a cancel and rebook. This would work even better if the waitlists were checked before any cancelations went back into inventory.

MS could make exceptions to the above if the lead guest change was between owners or if an owner was staying in another villa at same time (to help with multi-family trips).

While it is nice to be able to stay at non- home resorts, I have little sympathy for anyone who blames rentals for not being able to book something at 7 months or closer to check in. I believe in "buy where you want to be or at least don't mind staying if there aren't alternatives" and also in booking early. First come, first served.


It seems to me that quite a few of the multiple spec reservations offered by various brokers were probably NOT booked during the first few seconds of the 11 month window. That said, I am definitely NOT a fan of bots if they are grabbing up popular dates/villas. If that is happening, then I wish DVC would stop that method of booking. Again IMO, there wouldn't be much incentive for the bots to do that if changing the lead name was a cancel & rebook as described above.

If DVC gets enough complaints or thinks spec renting is significantly impacting its bottom line, I expect they will just change the booking rules and update the waitlist software. Easiest to do, easiest to explain. JMHO.MMV.

This wouldn’t do anything. Try booking a reservation with a random name as the lead guest. Hook it up to MDE and it will ask you to match to someone on the MDE side at which point you can select anyone. That is then what the front desk sees at the resort. They don’t see anyone on the DVC side. I know this because I book continuous stays with different first name variations so DVC won’t merge my reservations (and I’ve worked with the front desk and it always shows my MDE name).

So unfortunately DVC and MDE would need to be more integrated. Which I have little no confidence it will happen.

Also this limits so many cases in the end, specifically in my cases with family that travel from overseas and might not be able to and I’ve switched it to my family in the USA. Though perhaps because I was in another room your exception will cover it. But then again I’m against it even in the case I do switch family members and I’m not traveling. It’s partly why I own so I can gift to my family trips and sometimes 11 months is too far out for them. I assume I can’t be the only person in this boat and it seems against the spirit of the contract. But then again if DVC gets to strict I’ll just change to a different trust that has my family as trustees with me as opposed to my standard trust.

 

[CarolMN]

This wouldn’t do anything. Try booking a reservation with a random name as the lead guest. Hook it up to MDE and it will ask you to match to someone on the MDE side at which point you can select anyone. That is then what the front desk sees at the resort. They don’t see anyone on the DVC side. I know this because I book continuous stays with different first name variations so DVC won’t merge my reservatio

Interesting. But would an owner want a stranger in his MDE account?

If i am the renter, would I see the reservation in my own MDE account? Aren't there invitations that have to be shared so I can see the reservation in my account
? If it's in the owner's account, can I just connect it to my acvount manually by entering the reservation number and my last name? Does that mean all my photos would be shared with the owner?

I really don't know much ( OK, nothing) about how MDE works when more than one account is involved. But this work around seems complicated to me.


P.S. I really prefer to leave things as they are. Walking, bots & spec renting doesn't hurt me personally because my family doesn't book value, concierge or standard studios. Because those booking categories are so limited in number, any "fix" isn't going to help all that much, and is bound to negatively impact other members who appreciate the flexibility of the current system.

 

[Sandisw]

So, I did get my first response from DVC…someone in Membership Administration. I was referred to the MS POS as to the official policy. It is in Section 12, under Personal Use and Enjoyment. I am posting it below.


Now, the email certainly implied that this is it…and if I wasn’t one to ask a lot of questions, I would simply walk away with the understanding that I can rent in any manner I want, as much as I want, but be aware there is completion and not to buy as an investment or to be guaranteed any specific income.

Obviously, that is not me, so I sent follow up questions asking for some specifics to points brought up here, including can I use a third party to help me rent, can I use online forums, etc.

I asked about limits and patterns, if limits do exist, is it per membership or memberships, since I have three, and if I am allowed to rent a reservation that has already been made in my name.

I did add that I wanted the answers so I would not be in trouble for violating the contract and that clause doesn’t help if there are specific rules.

I ended by saying that I knew she might need to pass this up to legal since what I was asking was specific to contract language and enforcement.

Let’s see what happens next.

To add, I did ask the Commericsl Use policy and told this is what applies.

 

[crvetter]

Interesting. But would an owner want a stranger in his MDE account?

If i am the renter, would I see the reservation in my own MDE account? Aren't there invitations that have to be shared so I can see the reservation in my account
? If it's in the owner's account, can I just connect it to my acvount manually by entering the reservation number and my last name? Does that mean all my photos would be shared with the owner?

I really don't know much ( OK, nothing) about how MDE works when more than one account is involved. But this work around seems complicated to me.

It would be the renter that would connect to their MDE account and can just set it to themselves as the name wouldn’t match automatically.

 

[Sandisw]

Interesting. But would an owner want a stranger in his MDE account?

If i am the renter, would I see the reservation in my own MDE account? Aren't there invitations that have to be shared so I can see the reservation in my account
? If it's in the owner's account, can I just connect it to my acvount manually by entering the reservation number and my last name? Does that mean all my photos would be shared with the owner?

I really don't know much ( OK, nothing) about how MDE works when more than one account is involved. But this work around seems complicated to me.

When you enter a reservation into MDE, the last name has to match the lead guest’s last name…so, if one has rented a confirmed reservation, and the owner cant change the lead guest, without a cancel and rebook, then it might not work.

However, a way around it, for owners who want to rent confirmed reservations is to always book them in variation of the owners name

When they get a renter, the renter links to MDE using the owners name to link and then match to themselves…once linked, the owner csn add the other guests snd it will update in the renters account.

I have not tried it yet, so maybe it doesn’t work.

 

[Kailunkat]

I'm a bit late to the discussion but wanted to throw in a few points.

I actually believe that these rental broker sites own dvc contracts purely to make spec reservations and then rent the points. I believe they do so with impunity and the belief that there is little that dvc will do to stop them. I believe it is as simple as that.

I am new to DVC (just closed on my first resale contract, don't even have a member number yet) and the reason we ended up diving into DVC was that we could NOT get a rental for what we wanted. I tried to go through four of the top DVC rental brokers (you know who they are) to get a reservation costing around 550 points and NONE of them could fill it at the 11 month mark. This idea that the brokers own thousands of points that they can use for rentals does not fit with my personal experience. Each broker told me that there were no members in their databases with enough points at GFV, PVB, BWV, or RIV to book my stay at 11 months. They could however book at 7 months. So it is my personal experience that the decrease in availability that members like @lowlight and @mistysue are seeing is more due to the increase in 7 month reservation trading and non-home resort bookings.

If these companies actually owned or controlled contracts with thousands of points then it makes no sense that none had availability for any of my requests prior to the 11 month mark. They had the notice and chance to cancel out of a few of the small 2-3 reservations and book those 550ish points into instant profit. They charge the same fee per point regardless of rental contract length so it should be preferable to use those points on a sure thing/booking immediately.

Also incidently...

So, if iI have a family reservation, and my cousin changes their mind and can;t go, I need to pay a fee to remove hem from the reservation. And another fee to add another cousin later on, if one can go?

First, there is nothing in the POS that allows for that.
Second, it kills the flexibility of DVC, which is why most people purchased it compared to other timeshares.

That's exactly the policy of all of these rental brokers. You tell them who is coming when you book (11 months) and then if you need to update or change that list you pay a fee each time. For most it's around $50. It hasn't seemed to hurt the broker rentals.

What if DVD offered a facility to rent back your points to them, under the condition Disney would only use them for rentals within X months of the checkin date (eg 4 Mo) - so it provides a good window for DVC bookings within the 11 and 7mo windows, it would also give members the option to defer or rent back the points to Disney under the same timelines). An interesting twist would be if the payments were in the form of disney gift cards - rather than cash - so they could be used for dues, tickets, season passes etc, but are much less useful to a business (I know there are cash for card businesses). Speculative bookings / rentals would not be allowed. It could be combined with stricter rules on renting via other means.

I wonder why Disney doesn't just take a heavier hand and buy back points to rent themselves.
You already have magical beginnings to create a point inventory for DVD to manage.
You already have the tools to sell one time use points.
You can create a reverse tool for Disney to buy one time use points. This can be at similar prices as the brokers.

Disney can build a script to scrape the cheap inventory for themselves and sell those rooms for cash.
If Disney wants to price discriminate (rent at lower prices than online cash retail) they can always release inventory to the point brokers to sell, or offer targetted upgrades to hotel bookings just like a bid-up program on a plane or a train.

Disney can easily out some of these point brokers out of business by being their own broker.

THIS is the answer. If Disney became their own market makers as rental resale/broker they could immediately price out and eliminate the brokers. It would increase the value of DVC membership and possibly drive sales on that side if people had more flexibility to "trade" points or reservations. It seems like a missed opportunity for DVD. The variable we can't factor in is how much money DVD profits each year on unused/lost points.

 

[TCRAIG]

Every LEAD guest change. And yes, especially if the reservation was made when the 11 month window opened. I am not a fan of spec renting of popular dates & villas.

So - if I find I can’t go on a trip that I booked due to whatever reason - and maybe I used borrowed points - and maybe it’s within 30 days - cancel and rebook to (for instance) have my daughter go in my stead would mean I would basically loose the points because I would never be able to rebook - sorry - this is NOT a good solution for big time 3rd party spec renting…
To me - this ‘cure’ is worse than the ‘disease’…

 

[lowlight]

So it is my personal experience that the decrease in availability that members like @lowlight and @mistysue are seeing is more due to the increase in 7 month reservation trading and non-home resort bookings.

If these companies actually owned or controlled contracts with thousands of points then it makes no sense that none had availability for any of my requests prior to the 11 month mark.

Spec rentals are worth more than your rental would have been. That’s the whole point of this thread. You’re shocked they wouldn’t cancel a more valuable reservation to rent yours for less? I’m not. I literally had one of the big brokers tell me they wouldn’t rent my points and I needed to book a bunch of spec rentals for in demand rooms and weeks and they would list it. They told me exactly what weeks and rooms. Again, that’s the whole point of this thread.

 

[JackosinDIS]

So, I did get my first response from DVC…someone in Membership Administration. I was referred to the MS POS as to the official policy. It is in Section 12, under Personal Use and Enjoyment. I am posting it below.


Now, the email certainly implied that this is it…and if I wasn’t one to ask a lot of questions, I would simply walk away with the understanding that I can rent in any manner I want, as much as I want, but be aware there is completion and not to buy as an investment or to be guaranteed any specific income.

Obviously, that is not me, so I sent follow up questions asking for some specifics to points brought up here, including can I use a third party to help me rent, can I use online forums, etc.

I asked about limits and patterns, if limits do exist, is it per membership or memberships, since I have three, and if I am allowed to rent a reservation that has already been made in my name.

I did add that I wanted the answers so I would not be in trouble for violating the contract and that clause doesn’t help if there are specific rules.

I ended by saying that I knew she might need to pass this up to legal since what I was asking was specific to contract language and enforcement.

Let’s see what happens next.

To add, I did ask the Commericsl Use policy and told this is what applies.

Thanks for the update!
As you have noted, they haven’t really answered the question of what their policy is on what constitutes commercial use. I’ll look forward to seeing what they say in response to your follow up questions!

 

[Sandisw]

Thanks for the update!
As you have noted, they haven’t really answered the question of what their policy is on what constitutes commercial use. I’ll look forward to seeing what they say in response to your follow up questions!

Well, it could turn out that they did. Meaning that they no longer have specific rules and that it’s don’t buy for investment and rent at your own risk.

I can’t actually believe that….but if based on what they referred me to, it certainly could be inferred that way.

If I was someone who wanted to rent a lot, I’d keep that in my back pocket to counter any consequence because I asked specifically for the commercial use policy to avoid violating the contract, and that was the answer!

I’ll for sure keep updated

 

[Sandisw]

Spec rentals are worth more than your rental would have been. That’s the whole point of this thread. You’re shocked they wouldn’t cancel a more valuable reservation to rent yours for less? I’m not. I literally had one of the big brokers tell me they wouldn’t rent my points and I needed to book a bunch of spec rentals for in demand rooms and weeks and they would list it. They told me exactly what weeks and rooms. Again, that’s the whole point of this thread.

Let’s hope we get some answer from DVC soon!l.

 

[Sandisw]

So - if I find I can’t go on a trip that I booked due to whatever reason - and maybe I used borrowed points - and maybe it’s within 30 days - cancel and rebook to (for instance) have my daughter go in my stead would mean I would basically loose the points because I would never be able to rebook - sorry - this is NOT a good solution for big time 3rd party spec renting…
To me - this ‘cure’ is worse than the ‘disease’…

I think this is an example as to why I doubt DVC would do it. While spec rentals may be an annoyance, until it’s determined that they violate the contract, I can’t imagine DVC would ever institute a cancel and rebook for any and all name changes.

it certainly would do nothing to help them market it as a family friendly, flexible timeshare.

 

[Chuck S]

Spec rentals are worth more than your rental would have been. That’s the whole point of this thread. You’re shocked they wouldn’t cancel a more valuable reservation to rent yours for less? I’m not. I literally had one of the big brokers tell me they wouldn’t rent my points and I needed to book a bunch of spec rentals for in demand rooms and weeks and they would list it. They told me exactly what weeks and rooms. Again, that’s the whole point of this thread.

That is exactly the scenario I suggested was happening earlier in this thread. And while I personally hate that practice, and do not defend it, there is nothing in the POS or rental rules that prohibits DVC Members and brokers from doing that. And there likely is no easy fix that won't negatively impact many other DVC Members.

As I've said before, I rented points for the first time last year here on our Rental board. making reservations upon request of the potential renters for just $1 less per point than most people on the board were asking, because it was my first DVC rental, and I wanted to see how it all worked out. It was easy peasy. I asked 50% payment once they received the confirmation number, and I gave them a few minutes to verify it with MDE. The remaining balance was due 45 days prior to travel, or 45 days prior to my banking window, which ever came first. I sent text messages a couple days before the final payments were due, and all went well. I received the payments through PayPal.

It was 6 reservations, 8 nights total, all studios at various resorts. I made one adjustment for the renter, who wanted a standard view at SSR, which wasn't available when I booked the preferred view. They were also members, and watched the DVC reservation, and when a standard view happened to pop up as couple days later, they asked if I would change it for them (they already had a standard room with their own points, and this was just adding a night to their existing stay) I was able to change it for them, and adjusted the price down, even though they offered to pay the original price. I offered 100 points, and the reservations took a total of 98. I was able to bank the remaining 2 points, I only rented because I had two very expensive under concrete broken water supply lines to repair on my regular rental properties, and frankly, was short on cash on hand for that major repair.

I. personally, would probably never use a broker. But there are certainly owners that may be uncomfortable dealing directly with renters, and a broker would circumvent that. I just wanted to share my good personal experience with renting, if any owner was renting for the first time, and was debating on whether they needed a broker or not.

 

[lowlight]

So, I did get my first response from DVC…someone in Membership Administration. I was referred to the MS POS as to the official policy. It is in Section 12, under Personal Use and Enjoyment. I am posting it below.


Now, the email certainly implied that this is it…and if I wasn’t one to ask a lot of questions, I would simply walk away with the understanding that I can rent in any manner I want, as much as I want, but be aware there is completion and not to buy as an investment or to be guaranteed any specific income.

Obviously, that is not me, so I sent follow up questions asking for some specifics to points brought up here, including can I use a third party to help me rent, can I use online forums, etc.

I asked about limits and patterns, if limits do exist, is it per membership or memberships, since I have three, and if I am allowed to rent a reservation that has already been made in my name.

I did add that I wanted the answers so I would not be in trouble for violating the contract and that clause doesn’t help if there are specific rules.

I ended by saying that I knew she might need to pass this up to legal since what I was asking was specific to contract language and enforcement.

Let’s see what happens next.

To add, I did ask the Commericsl Use policy and told this is what applies.

I take this as a non answer. There are, in fact, remedies as owners if the terms of the POS are found to be false or misleading. The argument can be made that you bought into DVC with the knowledge that commercial renting was prohibited, and DVC is shirking their duty to uphold that agreement. Of course DVC can make the case that they don’t consider what is going on to be commercial activity, but again, not a lawyer, that seems a tenuous argument to uphold in court.

 

[CarolMN]

sorry - this is NOT a good solution for big time 3rd party spec renting…
To me - this ‘cure’ is worse than the ‘disease’…

Yes, the "cure" is often worse than the disease, which is why we need to be careful what we wish for. There is no cure that won't negatively impact someone.

 

[Sandisw]

I take this as a non answer. There are, in fact, remedies as owners if the terms of the POS are found to be false or misleading. The argument can be made that you bought into DVC with the knowledge that commercial renting was prohibited, and DVC is shirking their duty to uphold that agreement. Of course DVC can make the case that they don’t consider what is going on to be commercial activity, but again, not a lawyer, that seems a tenuous argument to uphold in court.

They only include potential reasons they may…not shall…choose, but it also gives DVC the complete authority to define when a membership crosses the line.

Even if we want to use the examples given, there is absolutely no hint in those that spec renting would not fall under the personal use right to rent.

As an owner, though, didn’t I know and agree to that?

Again, a contract is between an owner and DVC as an individual. If DVC tells me what I am doing is okay because those are the rules, then any court involvement would need to revolve around what?

An indivuals own interpretation of what it means to be a commercial enterprise? Remember, the renting of points is allowed. So, if you buy with that understanding and read your contract, don’t you go in knowing that the definition of commercial will be determined by DVC?

I have no idea but my guess, pure speculation here, is that things are allowed to continue because DVC is confident they are on the winning side in legal terms.

One reason I say that is that when questioned regarding a few things in the past, especially the point charts debacles, they backed down.

IMO, the discussion does need to revolve around what is happening on memberships and not how it’s being done because using a broker to rent does not automatically turn any owner’s membership into a commercial enterprise. Only DVC gets to say it does and I’ll go further that there are a lot of owners out there who would support that how you find a renter shoildnt matter.

So, it comes back to the contract. If DVC says this is section is all that guides it, and that all that is happening is still considered a membership being used for personal use, then that is what the definition of personal use is in relation to our DVC ownership.

Now, if they answer my questions with any nos, or it depends, then it goes to the next step.

But, if I get a yes, then I will confirm that this is THE policy for all owners, and that it is the legal rules of the contract.

I am assuming because you do see it as an isssue with this that you have contacted them and are working your way to too?

That will be another piece to see if your answers support the ones I get.

ETA: One section of the FL laws I have not read is related to the leasing of condos since what we own, outside of those who own CFW, is a leasehold condo and it may fall under those guidelines as well.