The Virgin Birth

[ROIE01581]

Once Mary gave birth she was no longer a virgin. Not possible.

 

[LuvOrlando]

The concept of Mary's virginity is a basic cornerstone of one particular Religion. I think it is unspeakably irreverent to tear apart this particular philosophical belief. I also believe that this behavior would never be tolerated if any other Religion was being scrutinized.

Obviously there is a particular segment of the population you are drawing out and the fact this is being done is not cool at all.

 

[Chuck S]

I think the Bible uses lot of symbolism, much of which had significantly more meaning at the time it was written than it does today.

For instance, Jesus was not the first "God-Man deity" to be born of a human virgin. Many ancient Pagan god-men were reportedlty born to human virgins. There is a symbology there, the deep meaing of which has been lost in time.

 

[rie'smom]

Once Mary gave birth she was no longer a virgin. Not possible.

When we say virgin, you know we mean that she didn't have "relations".

The concept of Mary's virginity is a basic cornerstone of one particular Religion. I think it is unspeakably irreverent to tear apart this particular philosophical belief. I also believe that this behavior would never be tolerated if any other Religion was being scrutinized.

Obviously there is a particular segment of the population you are drawing out and the fact this is being done is not cool at all.

Of course, it's ok to pick apart this one faith. Bad stories within this faith are front page news-other faiths, check page 23.

I respect other people's beliefs and faiths and I wish that they'd respect mine.

 

[IDoDis]

Except there are contemporaneous records of what he said and did not produced by his followers.

Even if one is not, nor ever will be a believer, I highly recommend reading Mere Christianity.

I second that. C.S. Lewis used to be agnostic (or atheist?). Reading his works and viewpoints from the thoughts of an agnostic, brilliant man changed Christian was what changed my DH's mind who also used to be agnostic. My DH has always been a skeptic at heart. He used to subscribe to newspapers like the Skeptical Enquirer. DH doesn't believe everything in the Bible as literal, but he is a Christian.

Another C.S. Lewis book I recommend is The Screwtape Letters. It's Christian satire at it's finest.

 

[Chuck S]

The concept of Mary's virginity is a basic cornerstone of one particular Religion. I think it is unspeakably irreverent to tear apart this particular philosophical belief. I also believe that this behavior would never be tolerated if any other Religion was being scrutinized.

Obviously there is a particular segment of the population you are drawing out and the fact this is being done is not cool at all.

Irreverence is in the eye of the beholder. How many threads have there been on the CB decrying the symbolism of the Islamic faiths after 9-11, or printing false "Nostradamus" passages to vilify people of the Islamic faith?

If any faith can't stand up to a little simply scrutiny and re-evaluation, how strong of a faith do you have? Faith is just that, the deep belief in the unprovable, and even the illogical. Trying to apply logic to faith is a pointless endeavor, but I certainly would not call it irreverent to ask "how" or "if" things in the Bible (or any belief system) should be interpreted literally or metaphorically. No interpretation is better than any other, simply different. We should certainly be able to discuss differences in personal beliefs without it being considered irreverent. Especially since there are so many different beliefs and sects that consider themselves Christians.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Irreverence is in the eye of the beholder. How many threads have there been on the CB decrying the symbolism of the Islamic faiths after 9-11, or printing false "Nostradamus" passages to vilify people of the Islamic faith?

If any faith can't stand up to a little simply scrutiny and re-evaluation, how strong of a faith do you have? Faith is just that, the deep belief in the unprovable, and even the illogical. Trying to apply logic to faith is a pointless endeavor, but I certainly would not call it irreverent to ask "how" or "if" things in the Bible (or any belief system) should be interpreted literally or metaphorically. No interpretation is better than any other, simply different. We should certainly be able to discuss differences in personal beliefs without it being considered irreverent. Especially since there are so many different beliefs and sects that consider themselves Christians.

So I guess you'd be ok if a whole bunch of people started mocking your little rainbow mickey? IF it bothered you would you be weak or just find it ugly?

 

[Buckalew11]

The concept of Mary's virginity is a basic cornerstone of one particular Religion. I think it is unspeakably irreverent to tear apart this particular philosophical belief. I also believe that this behavior would never be tolerated if any other Religion was being scrutinized.

Obviously there is a particular segment of the population you are drawing out and the fact this is being done is not cool at all.

One particular religion? Christianity, right? I do not think anyone is tearing Christianity apart. Do you? I actually think there is some healthy discussion going on and I have enjoyed people's thoughts on this.

Mary being a virgin is very, very important to my Christian denomination (Sothern Baptist). I had just never discussed it as much as we did on Sunday morning. When Larry King's (who is Jewish, I believe) comment was brought up, the whole topic intrigued me. I wondered if most Christians really believe that or not. I never doubted her virginity but thought of how such a supernatural occurance could make someone wonder. That is all this is.

Of course, with any topic of (esp. religion) threads tend to change subjects or take topics another step or thoughts provoke other thoughts etc. I do not think anyone is trying to tear our religion apart.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

The reason it came up was someone said that Larry King was interviewed once and asked if he could have lunch with someone who would it be. He said several people and Jesus was one. When pressed for why Jesus, he said something about wanting to know if it was really a virgin birth because that was such a big issue.

Well, if he really wanted to know that answer, shouldn't Mary be the one he wanted to dine with?

 

[amyhughes]

Well, if he really wanted to know that answer, shouldn't Mary be the one he wanted to dine with?

Yeah, I would agree. I baffled those around me when I admitted in my struggles during my pregnancies that I prayed (Hail Marys all over) to Mary and her mother Anne, not Jesus all of the time. Granted he is the Son of God, but I felt/feel that Mary was a more appropriate prayer for this time in my life.

There are many in my religion and other in Christianity who focus on Jesus solely b/c of his role as God/Man, however I don't think we should ignore those around him (i.e. Mary) simply b/c of them being mortal. Mary had to have been something very special to have been singled out by God to carry and raise his Son. And also let us not forget that according to the Church she was assumed into Heaven, both body and soul. She is Divine in our Church, the Mother of God. Without her help Jesus wouldn't have been who he was. She instructed him to perform his first miracle at the wedding in Cana (water into wine), and she along with Mary Magdalene, and her Sister Mary stayed with Jesus all through his crucifixion. Not the disciples, who fled and turned away. His mother stayed with him, until his death.

For more info on the life of Mary and her role in the Early Church and after check out this link:
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4967

 

[Tanuki]

I have to post this just for a laugh because it is a true story:

My daughter attended religious school and in 2nd grade they were learning about the Christmas story.

Then they had a test.

The question was "What can we learn from the story of the Virgin Birth?"

My 2nd grader put: "That even if you are a virgin you can still get pregnant"

The teacher marked her answer thru in red and corrected it "With God all things are possible"

I don't think my child even knew what a virgin was. She's never shy when it comes to taking a wild guess.

 

[Chuck S]

So I guess you'd be ok if a whole bunch of people started mocking your little rainbow mickey? IF it bothered you would you be weak or just find it ugly?

Why would I be upset because people discuss the symbolism of a rainbow Mickey? Civil discussion of the symbolism of Christianity, in this case a Virgin Birth, is not an attack on Christianity. There are many modern day Christian "symbols" that draw from Pagan roots, including the Christmas Tree. That is simply documented fact.

But you do seem to be implying I am not a Christian because I am gay...why is that? It is because your personal Christian belief system differs from mine? I would never presume to judge someone as Christian or not. I come from a diverse and varied family of Christian ministers, who often disagreed on Biblical interpretation. None of them considered it irreverent to discuss their beliefs, and the differences thereof. My Great Grandfather was a Brethren Minister, my two Great Aunts were Christian Spiritualist ministers, a cousin is a published author and Doctor of Methodist theology, there are some Lutheran ministers sprinkled in here and there, as well. We have interesting family reunions.

 

[Mikelly1221]

Yeah, I would agree. I baffled those around me when I admitted in my struggles during my pregnancies that I prayed (Hail Marys all over) to Mary and her mother Anne, not Jesus all of the time. Granted he is the Son of God, but I felt/feel that Mary was a more appropriate prayer for this time in my life.

There are many in my religion and other in Christianity who focus on Jesus solely b/c of his role as God/Man, however I don't think we should ignore those around him (i.e. Mary) simply b/c of them being mortal. Mary had to have been something very special to have been singled out by God to carry and raise his Son. And also let us not forget that according to the Church she was assumed into Heaven, both body and soul. She is Divine in our Church, the Mother of God. Without her help Jesus wouldn't have been who he was. She instructed him to perform his first miracle at the wedding in Cana (water into wine), and she along with Mary Magdalene, and her Sister Mary stayed with Jesus all through his crucifixion. Not the disciples, who fled and turned away. His mother stayed with him, until his death.

For more info on the life of Mary and her role in the Early Church and after check out this link:
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4967

While Mary was certainly an important figure in Jesus's life and a unique lady, the Bible does not teach that she was divine. Also, the Bible does teach that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time."

 

[Mikelly1221]

Also, while there have been various ideas put forth on this thread, I think the thread has been pretty respectful overall. I haven't felt attacked by people sharing different viewpoints. It's been a good discussion-way to go DIS!

 

[amyhughes]

While Mary was certainly an important figure in Jesus's life and a unique lady, the Bible does not teach that she was divine. Also, the Bible does teach that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time."

According to your faith, yes. In mine we have prayers for Mary, feasts that celebrate her life, and intercessions from her on our behalf. Like all Saints can intercede on behalf of those whom they deem worthy. In Dante's Divine Comedy (even though it is not a Divine text, it will suffice as an example) it was a mixture of Beatrice, The Virgin Mary, and Lucille (Patron Saint of the Blind).

 

[DisneyWalker44]

Just wondering, but how does the fact that he wrote after Jesus's death (and resurrection) challenge his authenticity?

Galahad and I were discussing the possibility - just the possibility - that Jesus didn't actually claim divinity, but that his followers added that. Galahad had offered up Josephus' writing as proof that Jesus couldn't have been misquoted.

We can learn some things from Josephus. To the extent we believe his writings have remained intact,. we can see what other people were saying about Jesus. But he certainly can't prove what Jesus did and didn't say.

 

[Galahad]

Galahad and I were discussing the possibility - just the possibility - that Jesus didn't actually claim divinity, but that his followers added that. Galahad had offered up Josephus' writing as proof that Jesus couldn't have been misquoted.

We can learn some things from Josephus. To the extent we believe his writings have remained intact,. we can see what other people were saying about Jesus. But he certainly can't prove what Jesus did and didn't say.

Indeed - and to be fair - I offer Josephus as evidence, not as proof. I am always interested in the evidence. I seek no further proof.

 

[Mikelly1221]

Galahad and I were discussing the possibility - just the possibility - that Jesus didn't actually claim divinity, but that his followers added that. Galahad had offered up Josephus' writing as proof that Jesus couldn't have been misquoted.

We can learn some things from Josephus. To the extent we believe his writings have remained intact,. we can see what other people were saying about Jesus. But he certainly can't prove what Jesus did and didn't say.

Do you believe his writings have remained intact? I know just enough about Josephus as to be very dangerous. And do you distrust his writings on other subjects?

 

[daisax]

Just to clarify (because people love to latch onto such things) Catholics believe Mary is holy, but not divine. She's not God.

We do believe in the intercession of Saints, though. It's somehow less sacriligious to pester St. Anthony than Jesus when you lose your car keys.

 

[luvmy3]

I agree.

I absolutely believe that Mary was a virgin and in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. As for Christ having siblings, that I don't believe. Yes, it says in the Bible that he had brothers, but brother didn't always mean "sibling" - it meant cousin or other relative as well as actual brother.

I'm sorry I have to ask, why would you believe one thing in the bible and not the other? What makes one of these stories more believable over the other. I'm just curious, I myself would find a man having siblings easy to believe but believing a woman was impregnanted by God and giving birth is a bit too far fetched. I was taught long ago that everything in the bible wasn't meant to be taken literally. Being so, its very hard to figure out what just might be true and what might be fable.
I don't deny that there was in fact a man named Jesus with a mother nmaed Mary, I just don't believe in the Immaculate Conception.

The Catholic Church is very insistent (Dogmatic) on these beliefs:

Mary was conceived immaculately, so that she was free from Original Sin and could be the perfect (sinless) vessel for Jesus.

She was a Virgin when she gave birth to Christ.

Christ's birth was painless due to the fact that Mary was born without Original Sin, therefore the pain that Eve loosed among her fellow women had no hold on Mary or her birth.

Mary remained a Virgin the rest of her life and was assumed into Heaven, body and soul. Feast of the Assumption is August 15th.

Now, do I as a Catholic woman think that these beliefs are inherent and total, yes and no. To say that woman is to blame for the pain of childbirth etc. is infuriating. Do I think it possible that Jesus was conceived immaculately, yes. That the only way a woman could be virtuous is to be sexless is another misogynistic quality of old religion I don't necessarily hold with. I have truly mixed feelings about how Mary's role is treated over the past 2,000 years.

Just to clarify (because people love to latch onto such things) Catholics believe Mary is holy, but not divine. She's not God.

We do believe in the intercession of Saints, though. It's somehow less sacriligious to pester St. Anthony than Jesus when you lose your car keys.

Amyhughes, are you saying that Mary was immaculately concieved so that she herself was born without original sin? If that is the case, then why is she not considered Divine?