The Running Thread -- 2022

[avondale]

Race report: Western Pacific 10k (Brazen Racing, Fremont, CA)

I knew going in that this was going to be a mess. My training has been lacking, and the last time I ran more than a 5k was Princess Half 2020. I've walked 3 of my last 4 5ks. But, I figured I could take it and see just how bad it was, in hopes of spurring myself on to training better for Wine & Dine Half.

Answer: better than I'd hoped, actually.

The Western Pacific races (normally 5k/10k/half/full, but they couldn't do the full this year) take place at Quarry Lakes in Fremont, CA. This is a really nice route, one of my favorites that Brazen runs at. It's mostly flat but with just enough hills to make you wish it were flatter. (Elevation change 94'; distance is a bit over 6.2 miles due to restrictions on where they can put the turnaround point.) The race loops around the lakes, with the 10k and half adding an out-and-back on the Alameda Creek Regional Trail. Nice views, and solid-packed dirt/gravel trails.

What training runs I'd been getting had been in the mile to mile-and-a-half range, with paces around 14:00 to 14:30/mile. I didn't figure I'd be able to sustain that. My hope was a 1:40 completion, to stay under Disney minimum time; I didn't consider it super likely, and the real goal was under 2 hours.

This was my first time racing with the Aftershokz OpenMove headphones I picked up last year. They'd be a bit more comfortable if they were ever-so-slightly larger, but I started consistently training with them last month, and I've gotten used to them. They performed perfectly well for the race, letting me hear the course instructions and volunteers while also giving me music.

I've been having shoe issues - Saucony stopped making the ISO shoes, which were working well for me, and my Omni 20s are sometimes making my feet hurt a bit. I suspect the issue is that I should move up to a wide shoe in this style. I considered going back to my old-and-battered Guide ISO 2s, but Nothing New On Race Day convinced me not to. (I know, they aren't new, but I haven't used them in months.)

Weather was fantastic - low 50s and sunny. Gorgeous running weather, although perhaps a bit humid. There were a lot fewer people than at previous races (go figure) so I was able to get to the back of the starting area and not have a lot of traffic issues. My wife was also doing the 10k, and started a bit behind me. Her plan was to chug along at a more-or-less constant (if slow) speed. Mine was to do 2m run/1m walk intervals as long as I could, then switch to 2m walk/1m run as long as I could, then just walk the rest. I had a water bottle (and there were three water/snack stops) and two gels, with plans to take a gel at about 2 miles and about 4 miles.

As it happened, other than needing to walk any sort of uphill after about mile 4, I was able to run 2m/1m intervals the whole way. The shoes were fine during the run, although my right foot was kind of warning me after mile 4 that it would be unhappy later.

Splits:
Mile 1: 13:54
Mile 2: 15:08
Mile 3: 15:55
Mile 4: 15:20
Mile 5: 15:36
Mile 6: 15:43
Remaining 0.28 miles: 4:17, 15:17 pace.

Overall chip time, 1:35:49, an official pace of 15:24/mile. My wife came in slightly behind me at 1:38:23.

As I grabbed some water, my right foot informed me that, okay, now that the race was done, it wished to have Words with me about the shoes. I ended up limping back to the car, was extremely glad for adaptive cruise control driving home, and am planning to hit Road Runner Sports as soon as I can manage.

Overall: I'm pleased with the result. I suspect that better shoes will help with the training as well; in addition, in a couple weeks my oldest son (and running partner) gets back from college, so I'm hoping that having him along will help me run more consistently.

Congrats on the race! Great job!

 

[avondale]

Race report: Traverse City Running Festival 25K, April 23, 2022

This trail race was one of many distances offered at the festival: also 5K, 10K, 50K, and 100K, plus a couple of relays.

The 25K loop course was on very nicely maintained state park trails. About 2/3 was on wide, packed-dirt trails with very little in the way of rocks, roots, or other technical surfaces. The last 1/3 was on single-track that also was quite easy.

Because of the surface and the relatively small elevation gain (a bit under 1000 ft), this is a relatively easy 25K. I chose this intentionally as my first 25K trail race.

I ran this very consistently and was happy with my finish. The course was a bit long - I measured 16.4 miles - and my finish time was a smidge under 3:22.

I recommend the festival and course, especially for those newer to trail racing.

I have a much longer report on my training blog:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/avondale-training-journal-starting-dec-2018.3725621/post-63959312

 

[GreatLakes]

This is a good example of some changes in registration that runDisney should consider. One is allowing multiple registrations without the chance of selling out while going through the registration process.

The other is being able to "legally" transfer bibs for people who bought and cannot use them. At some races (Run the Bluegrass comes to mind) there is a "match-up" service where people transfer a bib to someone else. Since the organizers run it, there is less chance of shenanigans or profiteering.

I'm not sure why they don't do this quire frankly. They can charge for it and control it and they will ultimately make more from someone that comes and does the races than someone that eats the registration.

Has anyone used a Hal Higdon plan before? I'm looking at the novice half and marathon plans, and I like that they're four days of running per week (as opposed to the 5-6 that I'm seeing in some other plans).

I'm thinking of doing the Novice 2 plan to train for my half-marathon in September and then transitioning to the Novice 1 marathon plan for MW. I'd love to hear about anyone's experience with these!

I used his Intermediate and Advanced plans but never novice. They were ok and the 4 races I used them for I finished but when I moved to a higher mileage plan (Hanson) with 6 days of running a week I was much happier. Not only did I finish with a PR and BQ but leading up to it I felt healthier and more prepared and after the race I recovered immediately.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Has anyone used a Hal Higdon plan before? I'm looking at the novice half and marathon plans, and I like that they're four days of running per week (as opposed to the 5-6 that I'm seeing in some other plans).

I'm thinking of doing the Novice 2 plan to train for my half-marathon in September and then transitioning to the Novice 1 marathon plan for MW. I'd love to hear about anyone's experience with these!

I used novice 1 for my first half last year. It worked very well to fit into my schedule and was great base building for the marathon I ran in the fall.

 

[camaker]

I'm not sure why they don't do this quire frankly. They can charge for it and control it and they will ultimately make more from someone that comes and does the races than someone that eats the registration.

I would imagine they don't do it in order to avoid profiteering from it. They can charge for and control it on their end, but they can't prevent people from buying up race entries and then overcharging to transfer them. I would hate for them to implement any sort of bib transfer procedure as that opens the door to scalpers and profiteers. It can be hard enough to get bibs for selected races without adding the additional demand that they would place on the system.

 

[sandam1]

I would imagine they don't do it in order to avoid profiteering from it. They can charge for and control it on their end, but they can't prevent people from buying up race entries and then overcharging to transfer them. I would hate for them to implement any sort of bib transfer procedure as that opens the door to scalpers and profiteers. It can be hard enough to get bibs for selected races without adding the additional demand that they would place on the system.

I could see an easy way to avoid this:

1. Create a waitlist for the races. To join the waitlist, there is a modest fee. Maybe if you get in, this fee or part of it is applied to your bib price.
2. If someone needs to relinquish their race entry, they contact Disney and, as long as there is a waitlist for that race (i.e. someone to buy the bib), they get their money back minus a "processing fee."

There would be no motive for people to buy bibs that they aren't going to use, people who need to bail from the race at least get something back, people who are looking for bibs are happy because they have a chance to get one, and Disney would make some extra money in fees. Everyone would be happy.

 

[camaker]

I could see an easy way to avoid this:

1. Create a waitlist for the races. To join the waitlist, there is a modest fee. Maybe if you get in, this fee or part of it is applied to your bib price.
2. If someone needs to relinquish their race entry, they contact Disney and, as long as there is a waitlist for that race (i.e. someone to buy the bib), they get their money back minus a "processing fee."

There would be no motive for people to buy bibs that they aren't going to use, people who need to bail from the race at least get something back, people who are looking for bibs are happy because they have a chance to get one, and Disney would make some extra money in fees. Everyone would be happy.

This seems more like a bib buyback and resale process than a bib transfer system, but I can see some possibilities for it. There would have to be a lot of failsafes built in, such as the ability to remove yourself from the list as the race approached and potentially a cutoff date for returning bibs. I see it as being far more trouble than RunDisney wants to deal with with their skeleton staff than everyone would be happy, though.

 

[GreatLakes]

I would imagine they don't do it in order to avoid profiteering from it. They can charge for and control it on their end, but they can't prevent people from buying up race entries and then overcharging to transfer them. I would hate for them to implement any sort of bib transfer procedure as that opens the door to scalpers and profiteers. It can be hard enough to get bibs for selected races without adding the additional demand that they would place on the system.

This is pretty easy to avoid, you don't let the bib seller select the buyer. You allow a registrant to "return" the bib directly back to Disney who then sells it on to someone either on a wait-list or just reopen the event for more registrants. After your bibs is resold you get a partial refund minus some transfer fee.

This is an eminently solvable problem and I think it would be a smart business move.

 

[camaker]

This is pretty easy to avoid, you don't let the bib seller select the buyer. You allow a registrant to "return" the bib directly back to Disney who then sells it on to someone either on a wait-list or just reopen the event for more registrants. After your bibs is resold you get a partial refund minus some transfer fee.

This is an eminently solvable problem and I think it would be a smart business move.

It sounds like something runners would love. It sounds like a major amount of hassle and extra work for RunDisney for minimal benefit in the big picture. I think they’d be hard pressed to realize much, if anything, in the way of profits once the effort of setting up and maintaining the system was factored in.

 

[GollyGadget]

Went after a new half marathon PR today, you can read all about it here: https://www.disboards.com/threads/r...ss-2023-disney-marathon.3595467/post-63961677

 

[sandam1]

There would have to be a lot of failsafes built in, such as the ability to remove yourself from the list as the race approached and potentially a cutoff date for returning bibs.

Yes, obviously there would be details to be worked out.

I see it as being far more trouble than RunDisney wants to deal with with their skeleton staff than everyone would be happy, though.

But I can see it another way - if there is an additional revenue stream, they can justify additional staff. If every bib transfer makes Disney $25 and there are 1,000 per race weekend (probably not outside the realm of possibility), that's $100,000 over four races. There's plenty of money to hire someone to go in the database and periodically do the appropriate transfers, which would take maybe 15 minutes tops. And the rest of that person's time could be used to work on other things that need to be done.

People always come back to the "runDisney has a skeleton staff." Why are they so unsuccessful at making the case that they need more staff to make money?

 

[camaker]

Yes, obviously there would be details to be worked out.



But I can see it another way - if there is an additional revenue stream, they can justify additional staff. If every bib transfer makes Disney $25 and there are 1,000 per race weekend (probably not outside the realm of possibility), that's $100,000 over four races. There's plenty of money to hire someone to go in the database and periodically do the appropriate transfers, which would take maybe 15 minutes tops. And the rest of that person's time could be used to work on other things that need to be done.

People always come back to the "runDisney has a skeleton staff." Why are they so unsuccessful at making the case that they need more staff to make money?

I would bet that even if $100,000 over four races a year was able to cover the cost of building and administering a system to manage the process, the remaining profit wouldn’t move the needle on the budget enough to be worthwhile.

 

[sandam1]

I would bet that even if $100,000 over four races a year was able to cover the cost of building and administering a system to manage the process, the remaining profit wouldn’t move the needle on the budget enough to be worthwhile.

Oh, it's very true that Disney (a multi-billion dollar company) would have to do it the most expensive way. However, I work at a small, underfunded nonprofit and could manage to set up a workable system to do the same thing using free tools (Google forms/sheets, Paypal and a little bit of staff time modifying things in our database) or our off-the-shelf cheapo ticketing system. And this isn't even my primary job.

My fundamental problem with runDisney and the Disney company in general is the lack of imagination on how to solve customer service challenges. It seems like they are so bound up in red tape that they can't find the easy/common sense solutions - even when the solution could result in more profit. The merchandise situation at the Expo is a brilliant example of this. Again, coming from a background where we have to be creative on a daily basis to accomplish fundamental things, it just makes me shake my head.

 

[HangWithMerida]

Has anyone used a Hal Higdon plan before? I'm looking at the novice half and marathon plans, and I like that they're four days of running per week (as opposed to the 5-6 that I'm seeing in some other plans).

I'm thinking of doing the Novice 2 plan to train for my half-marathon in September and then transitioning to the Novice 1 marathon plan for MW. I'd love to hear about anyone's experience with these!

I have used a few of his HM plans and really liked them. They were approachable for me as a newer runner and as I moved up from the novice plans they gave what felt like an appropriate step up in difficulty. I really liked that the workouts are not overly complicated. Some of the plans I have looked at would require me to make notes to carry with me as I would definitely forget what I was supposed to be doing! And I managed a new HM PR each of the last 3 years using his plans. Solid for sure.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Some of the plans I have looked at would require me to make notes to carry with me as I would definitely forget what I was supposed to be doing!

So true! Also I hate track/sprinting so it seems like a win all around.

 

[SheHulk]

Has anyone used a Hal Higdon plan before? I'm looking at the novice half and marathon plans, and I like that they're four days of running per week (as opposed to the 5-6 that I'm seeing in some other plans).

I'm thinking of doing the Novice 2 plan to train for my half-marathon in September and then transitioning to the Novice 1 marathon plan for MW. I'd love to hear about anyone's experience with these!

I've used them for half-marathon training, including the Novice 2 plan. They worked great for all the reasons previously mentioned: especially that the workouts weren't overly complex or requiring a track. I've since moved on to DopeyBadger plans which really pushed me to the next level, but these worked just fine for my needs at the time.

I've also used the 3 day a week plan Higdon used to publish for the Marathon. I don't know if it's still on the webpage. It worked fine, I finished, but I wasn't as prepared as I could have been (surprise surprise on 3 days a week).

 

[SheHulk]

QOTD: I have a half-marathon in 3 weeks, ending a period of pretty much Constant Training for Something since July. As I have complained on this thread recently, I'm tired. Some of it is training so continuously, some of it is just a long stretch of work stuff also.

My question is: How long do you folks take off when you feel this way? I haven't had a motivation lapse in years, and I'm hoping with a little break I'll be refreshed. Also just stopping running altogether is scary so how do you deal with a break? Doing my best to not sign up for ANY races until I get my groove back.

 

[MissLiss279]

ATTQOTD: I get this way sometimes after marathon training pretty much from spring until Marathon Weekend. I usually have 3-5 marathons in there, and I get tired. Some of that has to do with several long weekday runs. After MW, I usually try and take at least a whole week off or two. I then tend to spend one training session on a half marathon. Maybe that’s not right after MW, but at least one 8ish week period during the year of slightly lessor mileage.

Maybe you can switch to a 10k training plan? And maybe one that is more for maintenance without too much speed work??

 

[GreatLakes]

It sounds like something runners would love. It sounds like a major amount of hassle and extra work for RunDisney for minimal benefit in the big picture. I think they’d be hard pressed to realize much, if anything, in the way of profits once the effort of setting up and maintaining the system was factored in.

I'm not sure there would be much work. I suspect they are using a third party back end for this and most, if not all, already have this functionality. I also think it would be very profitable for Disney as a whole. I'm not just talking about the fee times the number of runners that do the process but the added revenue from have a body at Disney that is doing the races. If a Dopey runner registers and can't go as of right now the total revenue Disney could make off of that registration is $660.92.

If that same runner that isn't going to make Disney any money beyond the registration could transfer we have one example scenario below:

Original Runner is refunded their registration minus a fee. Let's call it $50 so right now Disney is in the hole -$610.92

Disney resells that bib to someone that wouldn't go to Disney at all that weekend if they didn't register. +$660.92. That runner needs to now plan a trip for the weekend. If they go solo for one week (Tues to Tues), stay on property at an All-Star, and do 3 park days with Genie+ you are looking at about +$1,601.33. Add some souvenirs (+$500.00), food for those 7 days (+$900), and a few random drinks over the week (+$50) and you are looking at +$3,101.33 from allowing just that one bib transfer.

Some will net less through shorter trips or off property stays and some will net more if they are bringing families, staying somewhere other than the All-Stars, or are adding other pay-per-use add-ons but I don't see the down side from Disney's point of view. Even if that revenue isn't booked to RunDisney who cares? At the end of the day they are all feeding into the same pool that is Disney. Of course that also involves looking at the big picture and not just what is good for your little fiefdom so I'm not sure Disney has that level of thought in leadership at the moment.

QOTD: I have a half-marathon in 3 weeks, ending a period of pretty much Constant Training for Something since July. As I have complained on this thread recently, I'm tired. Some of it is training so continuously, some of it is just a long stretch of work stuff also.

My question is: How long do you folks take off when you feel this way? I haven't had a motivation lapse in years, and I'm hoping with a little break I'll be refreshed. Also just stopping running altogether is scary so how do you deal with a break? Doing my best to not sign up for ANY races until I get my groove back.

I don't really stop running every unless I'm injured. I'd just run as I felt like it for a month or so and jump into some races you just run without really training for them. I've made some last minute race decisions and I just ran them at my fitness level at that time. It is pretty rare that I'm really "training" for anything. This year will be the first time in my running career I'll be following a training plan for anything two years in a row. I usually just run what I want when I want and make sure I am always at least fit enough to go do a slow half if I wake up and decide to do one that day.

Some of the plans I have looked at would require me to make notes to carry with me as I would definitely forget what I was supposed to be doing! And I managed a new HM PR each of the last 3 years using his plans. Solid for sure.

Depending on the watch you use you can program any workout so you don't have to memorize them. For my MW 2022 training I had a lot of days that looked like:

2 Mile warm up
12 x 400m @ 5k pace w/ 200m recovery
2 Mile cool down

I programmed that into my FR945 and didn't even have to do it at a track. I just let the watch guide me through the 8.47 mile run while letting me know if I was hitting my pace for that interval.

 

[camaker]

I'm not sure there would be much work. I suspect they are using a third party back end for this and most, if not all, already have this functionality. I also think it would be very profitable for Disney as a whole. I'm not just talking about the fee times the number of runners that do the process but the added revenue from have a body at Disney that is doing the races. If a Dopey runner registers and can't go as of right now the total revenue Disney could make off of that registration is $660.92.

If that same runner that isn't going to make Disney any money beyond the registration could transfer we have one example scenario below:

Original Runner is refunded their registration minus a fee. Let's call it $50 so right now Disney is in the hole -$610.92

Disney resells that bib to someone that wouldn't go to Disney at all that weekend if they didn't register. +$660.92. That runner needs to now plan a trip for the weekend. If they go solo for one week (Tues to Tues), stay on property at an All-Star, and do 3 park days with Genie+ you are looking at about +$1,601.33. Add some souvenirs (+$500.00), food for those 7 days (+$900), and a few random drinks over the week (+$50) and you are looking at +$3,101.33 from allowing just that one bib transfer.

Some will net less through shorter trips or off property stays and some will net more if they are bringing families, staying somewhere other than the All-Stars, or are adding other pay-per-use add-ons but I don't see the down side from Disney's point of view. Even if that revenue isn't booked to RunDisney who cares? At the end of the day they are all feeding into the same pool that is Disney.

The problems that I see with this approach and the underlying assumptions are that they don't take into account some of the timing mismatches and accounting realities of major corporations.

First, this model assumes a high demand for bibs. Until this most recent Marathon Weekend registration, it appeared that the popularity of the races was waning. The races with runners most likely to bail out on have had registrations readily available very close to the race weekends. There have even been some years recently where discounts were offered to try to move bibs. Given those circumstances, it's unlikely there would be a waiting list available for immediate resale of the bibs, which was a fundamental part of the proposed system. Is this year's Marathon Weekend the start of a trend or a one-off outlier resulting from a perfect storm of a post-COVID travel boom, multiple anniversaries and a theme that seems to have struck a chord. I'd want the answer to that question before investing time, effort and money in a system of this sort.

Second, there's a major timing mismatch. People looking to bail due to injury, lack of training, emergency, or other reason, are typically going to hit that point in increasing numbers as a race weekend looms. Prospective runners, especially for the longer distances most likely to be impacted, need to obtain their bibs early on so that they have adequate training time. The population of runners ready and able to say "I'll take a Dopey/Marathon bib" in December when reality (or injury) strikes the runner who suddenly needs to transfer is going to be pretty small. Add to that the complications of getting a Disney resort reservation (much less dining) just a few weeks out at anything like an affordable cost, and the hurdle is pretty high.

Finally, it's easy for us to look at the massive organization that is Disney and say "who cares" if the costs all fall to RunDisney but the profits go to Parks. RunDisney cares. They're still going to be challenged on why they need additional resources to maintain a system like this and I would be quite willing to bet that "it's going to hurt our bottom line, but it might help Parks" isn't going to get the PO signed. I work for an extremely large, multi-site corporation and each department and site has its feet held to the fire for their own budgetary performance.

As I've said, I think it's a great idea from a runner's perspective, but I think we're overvaluing its potential benefit to Disney/RunDisney. And we haven't even touched on the massive whining, complaining and trashing of RunDisney on social media that'll happen whenever someone tries to sell their bib back and can't because there's no one one the waiting list to receive it.