The Running Thread -- 2022

[The Expert]

It's a fantastic question. At its core, the question is, "How do I get faster?"

First thing I'd do is determine reasonable expectations. Based on the research I've read, and a small collection of data from runners here on the DIS, an average expectation is a 20-30% increase in VDOT from your first race. So go here (link) and type in your first race. It'll give you a VDOT value, like 30.8 for someone who runs their first race as a 30 min 5k. From there, multiply that value by 1.2 to 1.3. So a person with a 30.8 gets a value of 36.9-40. I'd then go back into the VDOT calculator and find what 5k equals a 36.9-40 value (25:50-24:05). So a reasonable expectation is that someone who started off as a 30:00 min 5k runner could become maximally a 24:05-25:50 runner if they see an average response to training in their lifetime. Now, there are obvious caveats to this. There are people who respond more and less to training over their lifetimes. From the limited data from the DIS, we saw some runners do thousands of miles of training and years of effort, and improve by 5%. We saw others do similar volume and similar time and improve by 74%. So an individual's response will vary from the average response. The average just gives you a good general idea.

This comes just as I was looking up information for my local Half and wondering if I could possibly improve my time from a 2:42 to a 2:30 for POT. According to the VDOT calculation, I have it in me. But is there enough time between now and April? That 2:42 was in November 2019, too. But if I hadn't been holding back for the full, I feel like I could have kept up the pace we were doing to get to the castle before sunrise this past weekend. For those first five miles, we were doing 90(run)/30(walk) intervals and had 13 minute miles with a few quick stops. Is it reasonable to think I could get to 11:30 miles and sustain them for the full 13.1 by April 23rd??

ETA: Feel free to take this to DM if you feel it isn't useful for everyone.

 

[lookingforsunshine]

that you can't change the setting mid-run like you can with the 245

This is my only complaint about the Fenix 6s… maybe I’ll write to Garmin about it.

I definitely need to overhaul my diet and ideally lose 40 pounds, though I'll take 20.

Same! We can do it.

This was the first race I ever DNF too so that's extra hard.

Have you ever DNS’d? It was also my first DNF (although technically I DNF’d Augusta 70.3 because they took my timing chip a mile from the finish, but I still finished the course and crossed the finish line and everything. I just done have an official time.) but I have many DNS’s so I am trying to put it into the perspective that I am proud I showed up.

 

[Goofed98]

This is my only complaint about the Fenix 6s… maybe I’ll write to Garmin about it

If you typically start off running, and then transition to a run/ walk, you can just set up the program like that.

I have my program set so that I run like regular, autolap, etc., until I hit a lap button, and then it starts the run/ walk timer.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I've been reading the pertinent chapters in the Daniels book for the 10k plan you suggested. The plans are definitely more complicated than any I've ever used. The thing I am getting hung up on is picking a weekly mileage. My weekly mileage is usually determined by my plan, not the other way around, and can vary significantly depending on what plan I am using. I don't really know where an appropriate starting point is. On the upper end of my HM plans I am in the low 30's miles per week. On the lower end, say during the summer, I can be at 15 miles a week. It feels so arbitrary to just pick a number somewhere in that range.

It's true, the Daniels plans are more complicated. They don't simply tell you exactly what to do like a Hal Higdon plan does, or even the Hansons plan. Instead, he takes more of a guide approach. This is what you should accomplish for hard workouts in a week, and then using the information gained throughout the book you build the easy days and other non-hard workouts. Compare that on the other extreme to someone like Steve Magnusson in his "Science of Running" book which has no training plans in it, but is just a series of concepts and workout types.

So in choosing which plan you should use from the Daniels book (and for those who don't know he usually has four to five different mileage ranges within each type of event distance) you should try and base it off of what you've been able to do successfully in the past. So you've done low 30s on the upper end for a HM. Is that amount of mileage tolerable to you? Do you find yourself injured? Are you limited on being able to do all the workouts in the amount of time it will take within the 30mpw plan (ie can you commit to the time necessary to do this plan)? If the answers are the mileage has been tolerable, you're not injured from it, and you've got the time to do it, then the 30mpw plan is your floor. I wouldn't do less than that because you haven't shown from a physical standpoint you need to. So then you have to ask yourself whether you have more time to commit to run training. If you could find some more time to train, then you could consider the next volume level training plan up. If you can't commit to more training, then do the one around 30mpw.

When I first was looking at the different choices for the Daniels plan, I wrote each of the workouts in Excel. That gave me an idea of the weekly time commitment and whether it was something I could handle. It's my belief that training is relative amongst us more by time than it is mileage. So I ended up doing a plan that did about 7-8 hrs per week. Something I had shown previously I could handle without getting injured. For me, that ended up being around 50-57 mpw. For you, maybe 7-8 hrs per week is 35-40 mpw. Yet, I would argue we're both doing a similar workload. So while he writes his plans as say a 30mpw one, and 40 mpw one, and 50 mpw one, in essence he's actually writing them for different fitness levels than he really is for different volume levels. You see that reflected in how the workouts are written.

This comes just as I was looking up information for my local Half and wondering if I could possibly improve my time from a 2:42 to a 2:30 for POT. According to the VDOT calculation, I have it in me. But is there enough time between now and April? That 2:42 was in November 2019, too. But if I hadn't been holding back for the full, I feel like I could have kept up the pace we were doing to get to the castle before sunrise this past weekend. For those first five miles, we were doing 90(run)/30(walk) intervals and had 13 minute miles with a few quick stops. Is it reasonable to think I could get to 11:30 miles and sustain them for the full 13.1 by April 23rd??

Not to burst your bubble, but as a reminder they moved the POT cutoff to 2 hour HM (for HM events) and 1:53:45 HM (for the M/Goofy/Dopey).

To answer the question, in general the amount you can improve in a single training plan is based somewhat on how long you've already been training for and what you've done in the past. The further you get in your running career the smaller the gains from any one training plan. A commonly quoted number goal for a single training plan is about 5%. So that would mean going from a 2:42 to a 2:34 in a single training plan. But that's not quite what's going on here as the 2:42 was in November 2019. So it's hard for me to say whether a 2:30 is achievable in April without more recent data. When we talked in August 2021, you had just run a 38 min 5k (hot/hilly) and we used that as a basis to write the Dopey plan with a HM fitness level of 2:54. You presumably believe you're closer to the 2:42 HM fitness than the 2:54 in August now. So I'd say in order to best determine the feasibility, you try and do either a mile or 5k time trial. Give yourself about 4-6 weeks post-Dopey to attempt the mile time trial. If you're aiming for a 2:30 HM in April, then you'd probably want to be able to run either a sub-10 min mile or a sub-34 min 5k. Those would be good indications entering the training plan that a 2:30 would even be possible in April.

 

[Herding_Cats]

wondering if I could possibly improve my time from a 2:42 to a 2:30 for POT.

I could be wrong, but didn't the POT threshold (for Disney) get lowered well below 2:30? to like 1:54? Unless you're talking about getting a POT for a different race.

 

[ckb_nc]

I have a Garmin 945. It does everything I need for all my various sports, has excellent battery life, and weighs almost nothing. Its open water swim tracking is not quite as good as the old 920XT, but that's my only real complaint about it.

I am a Garmin fanboy. I had an Apple Watch which ultimately I gave to my daughter. I have Garmins for my bike and multiple watches. Currently using my 645 every day (it has been acting up lately), along with 920xt that I use for triathlons. I have a 230 sitting around as my backup (my 645 went haywire race weekend and the 230 did the job well). I almost bought a 245 before Christmas. Eying the 745 too.

The 645 has been a great watch for me, one that I bought off Ebay, and when it broke Garmin replaced it for free - all I had to do was send them a picture of the the Watch breakpoint and the actual serial number.

 

[The Expert]

Not to burst your bubble, but as a reminder they moved the POT cutoff to 2 hour HM (for HM events) and 1:53:45 HM (for the M/Goofy/Dopey).

To answer the question, in general the amount you can improve in a single training plan is based somewhat on how long you've already been training for and what you've done in the past. The further you get in your running career the smaller the gains from any one training plan. A commonly quoted number goal for a single training plan is about 5%. So that would mean going from a 2:42 to a 2:34 in a single training plan. But that's not quite what's going on here as the 2:42 was in November 2019. So it's hard for me to say whether a 2:30 is achievable in April without more recent data. When we talked in August 2021, you had just run a 38 min 5k (hot/hilly) and we used that as a basis to write the Dopey plan with a HM fitness level of 2:54. You presumably believe you're closer to the 2:42 HM fitness than the 2:54 in August now. So I'd say in order to best determine the feasibility, you try and do either a mile or 5k time trial. Give yourself about 4-6 weeks post-Dopey to attempt the mile time trial. If you're aiming for a 2:30 HM in April, then you'd probably want to be able to run either a sub-10 min mile or a sub-34 min 5k. Those would be good indications entering the training plan that a 2:30 would even be possible in April.

:: pop ::

I hadn't been following the POT time change nuances because I knew I wasn't close, but now I remember just HOW not close I am! According to that calculator the best I can hope for is a 2:25 so yeah, it makes no sense for me to kill myself for a Dopey POT. Now, there may be other reasons to go for it, for it won't be for that!

I figured April might be a stretch, though I'm definitely feeling better about my fitness than when I started Dopey training. Now that I know I'm not dealing with a POT deadline, it might be a nice goal to go for in a fall race just to be more realistic. Appreciate the analysis!

 

[Herding_Cats]

:: pop ::

I hadn't been following the POT time change nuances because I knew I wasn't close, but now I remember just HOW not close I am! According to that calculator the best I can hope for is a 2:25 so yeah, it makes no sense for me to kill myself for a Dopey POT. Now, there may be other reasons to go for it, for it won't be for that!

I figured April might be a stretch, though I'm definitely feeling better about my fitness than when I started Dopey training. Now that I know I'm not dealing with a POT deadline, it might be a nice goal to go for in a fall race just to be more realistic. Appreciate the analysis!

Yeah I was planning on trying for a 2:30 POT in an *AUGUST* race over the summer (which is the hottest month here, and I ended up running the distance on my own and it was awful, hot, humid, terrible, and I almost quit at mile 10) until the new thresholds for POT were announced. 13 sub-9min miles are definitely NOT happening for me.

 

[striker1064]

I did my first Daniels T interval run today (7 half-mile intervals at T pace, which for me is 8:34/mile), and it was tough. Going into Princess, this is the first time I'm following a truly structured training plan with a variety of different workouts rather than a plan that focuses solely on building mileage, and I'm really enjoying the challenge that comes from each new type of run! Well that's not totally true, I wasn't enjoying it during the run today. But the sense of accomplishment is real.

 

[HangWithMerida]

So you've done low 30s on the upper end for a HM. Is that amount of mileage tolerable to you? Do you find yourself injured? Are you limited on being able to do all the workouts in the amount of time it will take within the 30mpw plan (ie can you commit to the time necessary to do this plan)? If the answers are the mileage has been tolerable, you're not injured from it, and you've got the time to do it, then the 30mpw plan is your floor. I wouldn't do less than that because you haven't shown from a physical standpoint you need to. So then you have to ask yourself whether you have more time to commit to run training. If you could find some more time to train, then you could consider the next volume level training plan up. If you can't commit to more training, then do the one around 30mpw.

OK, your perspective is very helpful. Being honest, his writing style is challenging for me. I find myself re-reading paragraphs and looking up definitions a lot to try to make sense of what he is trying to say.
The mileage is tolerable, I have not been injured, and I have the time for 30 mpw. I'll crunch some numbers on the next level up and see what the time commitment works out to for me. Knowing the mileage requirements will increase some as the plan progresses, my inclination is to start at the 30 mpw knowing I may bump it up on a future cycle. I haven't hit my ceiling for sure but I'm not in any rush to crash into it and I want to leave time and energy for my other activities.

 

[Sara W]

I found that the pairing of the watch with the iPhone plus the GPS are enough to drain the battery. I run with my iPhone only now and wear the watch mostly when not running. The phone is great for pictures during a race and for emergency in general. I am curious to read if anyone has successfully run a marathon (plus hours of usage before) with the combo.

I got the Apple Watch 7 in November and used it for the marathon on Sunday. I had it paired with my phone and carried my phone for pictures and ease of starting my interval timer, changing music (btwn Pandora and my playlist in Amazon music when Pandora's choices weren't working for me), etc. My race was just over 4 hours and I didn't have any battery issues. In the past I have found that pairing the watch and phone on long runs tends to drain my phone battery, but for some reason I was ok on Sunday. I have a Garmin that I love because of all of the information I can get after a run, but I like the ease of the Apple watch for my current mile pace and overall pace and it's quicker to skip a song (I'm sure a newer Garmin would have those features, mine does not).

 

[SheHulk]

To folks looking for an inexpensive GPS watch: I have, like, the lowest-level Garmin probably, the Forerunner 35. It's totally fine for me. I don't have fancy needs: I want to know how long I've been running, how fast I've been going, and heart rate. That's it. I've had it since Feb 2018, so that's, like, 4 years almost? Still going strong. To me it's been a great entry-level and I think if I ever needed another one I would stay at the entry level watch, whatever that is at the time. The battery has never petered out on me, even in a marathon. Even in an almost 6 hour marathon like I had this past weekend.

 

[Herding_Cats]

To folks looking for an inexpensive GPS watch: I have, like, the lowest-level Garmin probably, the Forerunner 35. It's totally fine for me. I don't have fancy needs: I want to know how long I've been running, how fast I've been going, and heart rate. That's it. I've had it since Feb 2018, so that's, like, 4 years almost? Still going strong. To me it's been a great entry-level and I think if I ever needed another one I would stay at the entry level watch, whatever that is at the time. The battery has never petered out on me, even in a marathon. Even in an almost 6 hour marathon like I had this past weekend.

This is what I started off with as well. Both of my older boys use one for cross country as well. It does the basics and nothing more (and nothing less!) I paid around $80 when i got the 2nd one (because 2 kids) and that I waited around for the price to change/different band color.

 

[jrsharp21]

To folks looking for an inexpensive GPS watch: I have, like, the lowest-level Garmin probably, the Forerunner 35. It's totally fine for me. I don't have fancy needs: I want to know how long I've been running, how fast I've been going, and heart rate. That's it. I've had it since Feb 2018, so that's, like, 4 years almost? Still going strong. To me it's been a great entry-level and I think if I ever needed another one I would stay at the entry level watch, whatever that is at the time. The battery has never petered out on me, even in a marathon. Even in an almost 6 hour marathon like I had this past weekend.

Does this model read the distance and pace out loud?

 

[Herding_Cats]

according to this yes. but via your phone. So if you want to leave your phone at home, no.

 

[SheHulk]

Does this model read the distance and pace out loud?

No, it just kind of buzzes on your wrist when you hit each mile and you look at your watch to see how long it was

 

[SheHulk]

according to this yes. but via your phone. So if you want to leave your phone at home, no.

I stand corrected!

 

[Herding_Cats]

No, it just kind of buzzes on your wrist when you hit each mile and you look at your watch to see how long it was

this is the method i use too. Oh look! my wrist is buzzing. let's see how I did that mile!

 

[camaker]

this is the method i use too. Oh look! my wrist is buzzing. let's see how I did that mile!

I set mine to auto-lap every 1/4 mile. Just call me buzz!

 

[Herding_Cats]

that would drive me insane.