The Running Thread—2023

[accm]

Talk to me about perceived effort vs heart rate. Even on my easy runs, where I don’t feel like I’m pushing hard, my heart rate is in the 160s, which puts me in zone 4.
Should I be running off of perceived effort? Or should I pay more attention and try to keep my heart rate lower?

 

[Zutroy]

Talk to me about perceived effort vs heart rate. Even on my easy runs, where I don’t feel like I’m pushing hard, my heart rate is in the 160s, which puts me in zone 4.
Should I be running off of perceived effort? Or should I pay more attention and try to keep my heart rate lower?

Some people just run with a higher heart rate. I’m very much a believer in running based on how you feel, not what a watch tells you. If the easy run feels easy, then you’re doing it right.

 

[Naomeri]

Talk to me about perceived effort vs heart rate. Even on my easy runs, where I don’t feel like I’m pushing hard, my heart rate is in the 160s, which puts me in zone 4.
Should I be running off of perceived effort? Or should I pay more attention and try to keep my heart rate lower?

I always seem to have a high heart rate when running, but I almost always feel fine. I average in the 160s for most runs, and in the 170s for races/speed workouts.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Talk to me about perceived effort vs heart rate. Even on my easy runs, where I don’t feel like I’m pushing hard, my heart rate is in the 160s, which puts me in zone 4.
Should I be running off of perceived effort? Or should I pay more attention and try to keep my heart rate lower?

both? slow down a little and see what happens? Does the run feel easy the whole time? Do your splits stay even or do you slow down the longer you go?
I feel like the talk-test is a good way to see if you're actually running easy. Can you carry on a fluent conversation? Sing along with your music? Or are you talking in a few words, breathing, few more words, etc. and chopping up your sentences?

I also think (it may have been from somewhere else?) that DopeyBadger has a link to an article that basically says that many runners run at almost lactate threshold and think it's their easy pace, when it is not.

But also, as Zutroy said, some people's HR zones are higher, and if you are using the default zones it's going to skew your data into a higher zone than you may actually be. In which case, you could do a max HR test and customize your HR zone or use % HRR (which is popular on here.)

 

[FFigawi]

Talk to me about perceived effort vs heart rate. Even on my easy runs, where I don’t feel like I’m pushing hard, my heart rate is in the 160s, which puts me in zone 4.
Should I be running off of perceived effort? Or should I pay more attention and try to keep my heart rate lower?

Are you sure your HR zones are calculated correctly? Have you done a recent threshold test to confirm the data? That’s the first thing I’d check in order to get them set right before moving to address your feel and your pace.

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

I’ll write up a race report later, but my Chocoholic Frolic 10K today was amazing and I highly recommend any race starting/ending at Harriet Island for anyone in the Twin Cities area.

A Chocololic Frolic?!!
A race meant for me!

 

[pluto377]

I should not be watching the nyc marathon coverage. It’s making me really want to run it again!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Talk to me about perceived effort vs heart rate. Even on my easy runs, where I don’t feel like I’m pushing hard, my heart rate is in the 160s, which puts me in zone 4.
Should I be running off of perceived effort? Or should I pay more attention and try to keep my heart rate lower?

If you're using the default zones (usually something like 220 - age for max), they could just be wrong. Low 160s is still zone 2 for me. If you don't know it already, you can try to measure your actual max HR with an all-out 5K or a bunch of hill repeats and calculate from there.

On the other hand, if you're not used to really running easy, whatever pace you usually run might feel "easy" even though it's really not. As @Herding_Cats said, the talk test is a good and simple indicator of whether your run is actually easy.

 

[fatmanatee]

Fun to be on the other side this year!

 

[steph0808]

Race Report

I ran a local half marathon this morning "just for fun."

The weather was perfect - around 50 - and I felt good going into it, so I figured I would see what happened.

It is an out-and-back with about 300 feet climb going out and then downhill coming back.

I didn't follow a plan or do any speedwork going into this race. I basically did some variation of 4-5 miles twice a week, 6-7 miles once a week, and a long run (8-10) on the weekend, of which 11 was my longest.

My PR is 1:53:58 from May 2019. I ran a 1:54:38 today I want to be mad about only being 40 seconds away, but I really can't be. I left everything out on the trail and was very consistent throughout. I *think* I dropped a minute between miles 11-12, which took me off of the PR. I also wish it had been cloudy and about 5 degrees cooler, as it was about 60 when I finished.

The real issue is my Fenix 6s. It absolutely hates giving me the right time and distance splits. By mile 2, it was already one-tenth of a mile off. I'd look at my watch and it'd show 11:50 pace when I was running like 8:50. I know instantaneous pace isn't always accurate, but my old Forerunner would always get it together, even when I was in an area where I knew the instantaneous would be wrong - the mile always turned out correctly. My Fenix had the run at 12.58 when it was a certified 13.1, so I can't even really figure out where I lost some time. I am sure I did on some of the uphill and I think 11-12 as well.

I'm really happy with the run, especially since I basically ran by feel and just looked at total time to figure out general mile splits. Now if I buckled down, I could probably shave a few minutes off my PR. But I'm fairly lazy and just like to run for fun.

 

[accm]

both? slow down a little and see what happens? Does the run feel easy the whole time? Do your splits stay even or do you slow down the longer you go?
I feel like the talk-test is a good way to see if you're actually running easy. Can you carry on a fluent conversation? Sing along with your music? Or are you talking in a few words, breathing, few more words, etc. and chopping up your sentences?

I also think (it may have been from somewhere else?) that DopeyBadger has a link to an article that basically says that many runners run at almost lactate threshold and think it's their easy pace, when it is not.

But also, as Zutroy said, some people's HR zones are higher, and if you are using the default zones it's going to skew your data into a higher zone than you may actually be. In which case, you could do a max HR test and customize your HR zone or use % HRR (which is popular on here.)

Are you sure your HR zones are calculated correctly? Have you done a recent threshold test to confirm the data? That’s the first thing I’d check in order to get them set right before moving to address your feel and your pace.

The run feels easy the whole time. My stays are mostly even. Generally the first half mile is too fast, and then they hover within about 15 seconds of my target pace. I'm able to sing while I run, but I find that generally also makes my heart rate increase when I do.
I'm using a DopeyBadger training plan, which has what my easy pace should be, so I think easy is easy?

I manually adjusted my max HR on my Garmin to match the highest HR I've seen previously, which was during a mile time trial. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure if the Garmin also adjusted the zones accordingly.
I guess I can do a max HR test, but I feel like I'd rather wait until after I'm done training for Dopey for that.

ETA: here are the zones Garmin gives me. My max heart rate is 191

 

[Naomeri]

A Chocololic Frolic?!!
A race meant for me!

Nothing better than a flat course followed by a cookie the size of your face (not a trick—that cookie is touching my nose)

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

Race Report

I ran a local half marathon this morning "just for fun."

The weather was perfect - around 50 - and I felt good going into it, so I figured I would see what happened.

It is an out-and-back with about 300 feet climb going out and then downhill coming back.

I didn't follow a plan or do any speedwork going into this race. I basically did some variation of 4-5 miles twice a week, 6-7 miles once a week, and a long run (8-10) on the weekend, of which 11 was my longest.

My PR is 1:53:58 from May 2019. I ran a 1:54:38 today I want to be mad about only being 40 seconds away, but I really can't be. I left everything out on the trail and was very consistent throughout. I *think* I dropped a minute between miles 11-12, which took me off of the PR. I also wish it had been cloudy and about 5 degrees cooler, as it was about 60 when I finished.

The real issue is my Fenix 6s. It absolutely hates giving me the right time and distance splits. By mile 2, it was already one-tenth of a mile off. I'd look at my watch and it'd show 11:50 pace when I was running like 8:50. I know instantaneous pace isn't always accurate, but my old Forerunner would always get it together, even when I was in an area where I knew the instantaneous would be wrong - the mile always turned out correctly. My Fenix had the run at 12.58 when it was a certified 13.1, so I can't even really figure out where I lost some time. I am sure I did on some of the uphill and I think 11-12 as well.

I'm really happy with the run, especially since I basically ran by feel and just looked at total time to figure out general mile splits. Now if I buckled down, I could probably shave a few minutes off my PR. But I'm fairly lazy and just like to run for fun.

"Now if I buckled down, I could probably shave a few minutes off my PR. But I'm fairly lazy and just like to run for fun."

We can definitely be friends.

(And kudos on a good run.)

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

One more comment related to the MCM, but needs to be here.
Several months ago, I was having trouble running more than a mile without a searing pain in my thigh. PT and doing their exercises and stretching alleviated that.
And just two months ago, I could barely walk across a room without pain due to the Morton neuroma. That was alleviated with a combination of: (1) not doing stuff that aggravates the condition (I know, profound, but it meant consciously thinking about things like stairs and how I was standing), (2) ice packs on the bottom of my foot, and (3) the Hoka running shoes and a pair of On shoes for my everyday walking around.

Both conditions impacted my training and had me worried about the MCM, and still have me worried about MW. But they were a non-factor in the MCM, so I can't say enough about PT or the Hokas.

I did my first post-MCM run today and it went well enough. It was about a 4 mile run, but my watch died at the three-mile mark. After charging, it has those miles at a low 10-min/mile pace. I'll take that.

And my post-run weight was 197.8!
I know, water weight, but it was only 200.5 earlier in the day, so I'm getting close.
As I told the DW, I'm below 200 for the first time in over 25 years, at least until after supper....
So now the new goal for MW is to be at or below 195.

 

[FFigawi]

The run feels easy the whole time. My stays are mostly even. Generally the first half mile is too fast, and then they hover within about 15 seconds of my target pace. I'm able to sing while I run, but I find that generally also makes my heart rate increase when I do.
I'm using a DopeyBadger training plan, which has what my easy pace should be, so I think easy is easy?

I manually adjusted my max HR on my Garmin to match the highest HR I've seen previously, which was during a mile time trial. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure if the Garmin also adjusted the zones accordingly.
I guess I can do a max HR test, but I feel like I'd rather wait until after I'm done training for Dopey for that.

ETA: here are the zones Garmin gives me. My max heart rate is 191
View attachment 807855

Your zones look a bit off to me. I’d expect to see something more like these for you with a max HR of 191, which would put your runs more into zones 2 and 3. The border between z1/z2 and z2/z3 can vary by a few bpm.

Z1 - under 130
Z2 - 130-156
Z3 - 157-165
Z4 - 166-179
Z5 - 180+

 

[dis_or_dat]

Fun to be on the other side this year!

View attachment 807808

What mile were you at? You guys really turned out! Thank you!!!

 

[camaker]

Your zones look a bit off to me. I’d expect to see something more like these for you with a max HR of 191, which would put your runs more into zones 2 and 3. The border between z1/z2 and z2/z3 can vary by a few bpm.

Z1 - under 130
Z2 - 130-156
Z3 - 157-165
Z4 - 166-179
Z5 - 180+

I agree that the posted HR zones seemed a bit high. @accm, have you gone in and made sure that the watch is using the %HRR method for setting your zones? Garmins seem to come with a weird default setting out of the box, if you haven't changed it.

If not, you'll need to switch the watch to %HRR (heart rate reserve) monitoring and know your resting and maximum heart rates. You then find your heart rate reserve, essentially your "working range":

HRR = Max HR - Resting HR

The zone ranges (or at least starting points of each zone) are then calculated as follows:

Zone 1 = Resting HR + (50% x HRR)
Zone 2 = Resting HR + (60% x HRR)
Zone 3 = Resting HR + (70% x HRR)
Zone 4 = Resting HR + (80% x HRR)
Zone 5 = Resting HR + (90% x HRR)

 

[fatmanatee]

What mile were you at? You guys really turned out! Thank you!!!

Maybe a quarter mile after the mile 8 mark, on Lafayette. I had remembered this stretch when I ran last year and wanted to get back to see it from the other side and sure enough, it was an absolute blast. After that I went to Central Park about a mile off from the finish.

 

[huskies90]

QOTD: Carbon plated shoes, what has been your experience?

We all know what they are and how they should help, but I am curious how you all have fared with these racing shoes? I have been in Asics Nimbus since 2017. Over the last six years, I used them for all my training runs and races including four marathons. I a pretty big guy at ~ 200 lbs so I appreciate the extra cushioning. I have never had an issue with them and I still use them for all my training runs.

After all the talk on this thread about having a different shoe for races, I figured what the heck, if these shoes really make a difference, I will give it a try. I bought a pair of Saucony Endorphin Pro 3’s over the summer. I have now worn them for three races: a 10K in August, a half marathon in September and yesterday’s NYC marathon. I am struggling to notice any difference wearing these shoes vs my Asics Nimbus and I am wondering if I should stick with them for races, maybe try a different brand or just go back to the Nimbus for training and races. I am curious to hear other experiences…

 

[mtnmjd]

QOTD: Carbon plated shoes, what has been your experience?

We all know what they are and how they should help, but I am curious how you all have fared with these racing shoes? I have been in Asics Nimbus since 2017. Over the last six years, I used them for all my training runs and races including four marathons. I a pretty big guy at ~ 200 lbs so I appreciate the extra cushioning. I have never had an issue with them and I still use them for all my training runs.

After all the talk on this thread about having a different shoe for races, I figured what the heck, if these shoes really make a difference, I will give it a try. I bought a pair of Saucony Endorphin Pro 3’s over the summer. I have now worn them for three races: a 10K in August, a half marathon in September and yesterday’s NYC marathon. I am struggling to notice any difference wearing these shoes vs my Asics Nimbus and I am wondering if I should stick with them for races, maybe try a different brand or just go back to the Nimbus for training and races. I am curious to hear other experiences…

I added a pair of Endorphin Pros last year because I was able to get them with a coupon code.
I'm not certain someone of my running ability and age can fully benefit form the advantages of the carbon plate nor am I certain that it is a good idea for my body to be running in that type of shoe.

That being said, I did PR my half marathon last spring by 3 minutes at Philly Love Run with a 1:54:29 while wearing them.
Not sure if it was the shoes or just a good day on a good course. And the previous PR was 8 long years ago.