The 'Planning Backlash'

[redsbe]

We took a family trip to NYC a few years ago and to get into the best most popular Broadway shows and some restaurants would have required weeks if not months of advance reservations. Popular sites that are busy and attract crowds will always require some degree of advanced planning IF you are looking to experience all that you can in what is often limited days on a trip. On the other hand going to spend a week on the beach at the Outer Banks takes little planning as much as simply deciding one day to head there (again as long as it is not the 4th of July!). Visitors can certainly take and enjoy a trip to WDW with little or no planning, including no FP+, as with many other locations, but if during peak crowds their experience, and perhaps enjoyment is going to be impacted and certainly less in many aspects.

 

[Laketravis]

How many other amusement parks get 18 million annual visitors as MK does or even the 10 million plus DS, AK and Epcot get? In my view, frankly much of the need or reasoning for planning is to deal with the crowds and lines including rides and meal reservations, and for multiple day trips you are planning for several days with events and reservations in different parks. It requires little planning to visit Six Flags or for us to go to Cedar Point for the day (3 million visitors a year) except weather and avoiding the major crowd days on summer holidays like 4th of July. When I visited WDW in the mid 1990s some planning, but much less was required because the crowds were also much less.

How many other trip destinations, including theme or amusement parks, have as many events, activities, shows, rides and food options, available in one place required some advance planning? WDW is not same as taking a trip to Paris or cruise or Hawaii and having entire days focuses on one site or activity or having some aspects of your trip taken care of for you (meals).

I get your point, but the circumstances you describe are scalable. The point some of us make is if Disney can expect to see 10M visitors a year at DS, then they should have sufficient capacity at DS to accomodate that many guests, thus negating the need for additional guest planning.

It is also correct that FP/MDE is a large scale attempt by WDW to utilize as much latent park capacity as possible before investing in more.

 

[MrInfinity]

You've fallen into the trap of looking at this from the perspective of one who goes to WDW frequently and "knows the ropes"--both figuratively and literally, and who goes to Europe and/or Hawaii far less frequently, and perhaps as a once-in-a-lifetime trip. Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who lives in California, goes to Hawaii every year in October, likes to stay at the Hilton Waikoloa Village Resort on the Big Island, likes to spend a day horseback riding in the Waipio Valley, likes to spend a half day snorkeling at Honaunau Bay, likes to spend a day at Volcano National Park, and prefers to hang around the resort the rest of the time. And imagine that this person like to take in a luau, dine well at Merriman's and Brown's Beach House, and enjoy the remaining meals at smaller, more casual places and sushi joints. How long do you think it would take this person to plan that vacation? About 11 clicks of a mouse? Now imagine that this same person is planning a once-in-a-lifetime trip to WDW. Harder to plan? Oh yeah!

Hehe I lived in Cali, went to Hawaii, and planning each of those things would require separate research and a separate call / organization just to plan them, assuming you already knew about them. It's not like Disney where you can do it all in one phone call and one website.

I know people who go to Paris 4 or 5 times a year. And WDW never. If and when they decide to go to WDW, which will be harder and longer to plan--their next trip to Paris of their first trip to WDW?

You're picking people who know one thing and not another. You have to compare apples to apples. So take a person who neither goes to Europe much nor Disney much, and figure there. The learning curve in going to Europe will be much steeper and the planning far more difficult.

If/when those Paris-visitors you speak of go to Disney World, I'm sure they'll be able to plan it just fine as planning Disney World is not much more difficult than making some simple reservations w the WDTC which will handhold you thru all of them whereas they're used to planning trips to Europe which involve foreign travel, new bus systems, currencies, cab systems, tipping strategies, train schedules, etc.

In 2010 we went to WDW for basically the "first time" since childhood in the early 80's (during which I was a young kid and surely did not gather info about the logistics of travelling to WDW). So when I planned that trip, I was essentially new. I also went to Hawaii in 2008. It was WAY more involved planning a trip to Hawaii than Disney World, being firsts for both. A few years prior I went to NZ. That took even more planning.

Disney World (for residents of the US) is in our back yard. If you were to make the case for our European friends coming to WDW from overseas, that's a little different. But for us in the US, planning a trip to WDW is no more difficult than browsing the Disney site, picking some restaurants, and calling 800-WDW-DINE -- which will then handle everything for you.

It is really an easy thing to plan and book. Disney is great at making booking a lot of expensive things very simple to do.

 

[mcd2745]

LOL! But MDE doesn't show dining credit allocations, and we are normally on a dining plan. Nor does it show alternate plans (at least I don't think it does). And I admit that I am one who sometimes makes multiple ADR's under different accounts (don't taze me, bro!) and that isn't easily seen from a single MDE view.

Sorry, but that is indeed a "tas-able" offense. So...

 

[pigletgirl]

I get your point, but the circumstances you describe are scalable. The point some of us make is if Disney can expect to see 10M visitors a year at DS, then they should have sufficient capacity at DS to accomodate that many guests, thus negating the need for additional guest planning.

It is also correct that FP/MDE is a large scale attempt by WDW to utilize as much latent park capacity as possible before investing in more.

I believe what Disney has done is allowed the guest to have as much say as possible in their stay. If you are going to spend X amt of money, you should have some control over what happens during your stay. I think it's the best process a theme park can have based on the size of it and the amount of visitors it has on a daily basis.

We have to remember, this isn't your local zoo, but a destination that people come from all over the world to visit. I think we tend to forget that.

 

[patty57]

Sometimes referred to as theme parks, which are really just amusement parks in drag

Really expensive drag though.

 

[MrInfinity]

It's not the physical time required to do the planning itself with WDW. It's the mental time needed to know which of those ADRs and FP+s you want to reserve. It's not like people are going to do zero planning and then suddenly at 180+10 randomly decide where they are going to eat, right? Same with the FP+ as now you have to take the mental time to plan the entire day out at a specific park BEFORE you take the teeny hour out of your day to do the physical planning itself at 60 days out.

You don't need to know them. You might feel YOU need to know them, but a random guest just doesn't. We went in 2010 with basically no knowledge. Yep we showed up and saw CRT, asked about it, told no-go, so we moved on. We ate at LTT w no res and loved it. We made the mental note that it would be cool to eat at CRT some time. 2 years later, we went back... I remembered to call to get a ressie. Found out you can do so 6 mo in advance, and did so. It was not a big deal to A) not get into it the first time for not having known, nor B) to get into it after even the tiniest bit of research on how to reserve something we wanted to do.

All the hype about having to pick ADRs is really just the want-to-plan-it-all guru types. (which I've become one of). Now I love to do it. But for a first-time-trip, it is not at all needed, nor really, in my opinion, advised to plan too much for first-timers.

FP+ you don't have to plan your entire day out. Again YOU and I might like to plan our entire day out having been and enjoying the planning, but a first-timer simply doesn't need to. Everyone has heard of Space Mountain and the Mine Train, so they'll pick those or whatever and be perfectly fine. You really gotta travel with more newbies to learn that what WE feel is necessary planning really does not exist outside the Dis.

 

[redsbe]

I get your point, but the circumstances you describe are scalable. The point some of us make is if Disney can expect to see 10M visitors a year at DS, then they should have sufficient capacity at DS to accomodate that many guests, thus negating the need for additional guest planning.

It is also correct that FP/MDE is a large scale attempt by WDW to utilize as much latent park capacity as possible before investing in more.

I agree that capacity needs to be increased (and will be over the coming years) at all the WDW parks. But we are taking about millions of dollars invested and important decisions that take time and have long term implications for the parks, while over the last several years the WDW park division worldwide has made such investments. But I understand WDW has lagged and the decision to spend on MDE for the reasons you highlight has been the response by Disney corporate even though many others would have understandably preferred more timely investment in park attractions - which I see as a valid point.

But even going back ten years or longer, a WDW trip has required some planning especially involvement meals and reservations and even with FP- considering which parks and what time of day to visit to maximize park opportunities. I agree that MDE and FP+ have made that planning more necessary but it seems to me that many visitors like to plan and understand the value gained by planning as most of those I see in the parks clearly are following some degree to planning, even apparently new visitors I talked to or interacted with.

 

[pigletgirl]

I agree that capacity needs to be increased (and will be over the coming years) at all the WDW parks. But we are taking about millions of dollars invested and important decisions that take time and have long term implications for the parks, while over the last several years the WDW park division worldwide has made such investments. But I understand WDW has lagged and the decision to spend on MDE for the reasons you highlight has been the response by Disney corporate even though many others would have understandably preferred more timely investment in park attractions - which I see as a valid point.

But even going back ten years or longer, a WDW trip has required some planning especially involvement meals and reservations and even with FP- considering which parks and what time of day to visit to maximize park opportunities. I agree that MDE and FP+ have made that planning more necessary but it seems to me that many visitors like to plan and understand the value gained by planning as most of those I see in the parks clearly are following some degree to planning, even apparently new visitors I talked to or interacted with.

BBM -- I can attest to this! On our most recent trip, we ate breakfast one morning at our resort and we shared a table with another family. That family was on their first vacation with their 8 year old daughter and 5 year old son. They were very thankful for the planning involved and "I don't think we could of toured as well as we did without it"...

It's hard for those who have gone 50 times to see the positives about it. Change is hard and I think that is what we are seeing now.

 

[Laketravis]

We have to remember, this isn't your local zoo, but a destination that people come from all over the world to visit. I think we tend to forget that.

You're right, it's definitely not the local zoo. But consider for a moment MCO airport and the Orlando infrastructure. Would you agree it's done a pretty good job of keeping up with the millions and growing of international visitors who arrive in that city each year?

More visitors equates to more revenue. Proper planning results in increased spending on resources to accommodate more visitors.

But yet, attractions in HS are being closed with nothing new being opened. That doesn't help capacity at all and puts increased planning pressure on guests.

And how did you get BOO'ed by GoofyinToronto??

 

[pigletgirl]

You're right, it's definitely not the local zoo. But consider for a moment MCO airport and the Orlando infrastructure. Would you agree it's done a pretty good job of keeping up with the millions and growing of international visitors who arrive in that city each year?

More visitors equates to more revenue. Proper planning results in increased spending on resources to accommodate more visitors.

But yet, attractions in HS are being closed with nothing new being opened. That doesn't help capacity at all and puts increased planning pressure on guests.

HS is under major renovation and restructuring. Because of that the demand on the other 3 parks will rise, thus making FP+ even more needed for the popular attractions.

The good news is that the magic is still present.... We all just need to slow down and take it in!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You've fallen into the trap of looking at this from the perspective of one who goes to WDW frequently and "knows the ropes"--both figuratively and literally, and who goes to Europe and/or Hawaii far less frequently, and perhaps as a once-in-a-lifetime trip. Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who lives in California, goes to Hawaii every year in October, likes to stay at the Hilton Waikoloa Village Resort on the Big Island, likes to spend a day horseback riding in the Waipio Valley, likes to spend a half day snorkeling at Honaunau Bay, likes to spend a day at Volcano National Park,
and prefers to hang around the resort the rest of the time. And imagine that this person like to take in a luau, dine well at Merriman's and Brown's Beach House, and enjoy the remaining meals at smaller, more casual places and sushi joints. How long do you think it would take this person to plan that vacation? About 11 clicks of a mouse? Now imagine that this same person is planning a once-in-a-lifetime trip to WDW. Harder to plan? Oh yeah!

I know people who go to Paris 4 or 5 times a year. And WDW never. If and when they decide to go to WDW, which will be harder and longer to plan--their next trip to Paris of their first trip to WDW?

I commented similarity about familiarity that aids in less planning required. (Feel free to look back at my first post around page 2 or 3.)

Familiarity does enable folks who travel to the same place frequently to not have to do anything exceptional over a newbie.

But I highlight your once on a lifetime comment. It is placing a parameter that was not the central focus of discussion. As happens often. So let's discuss that.

I am not positive if this encompasses all the groups that come to Disney...

But you have the ones who to often enough they could *almost* literally just show up and have a great time. (This is pretty much my family.)

The ones that to frequently some cycle, be it yearly, every other year, every five years--whatever. They may or may not go often, but they are pretty familiar and minimal planning is done. The amount directly correlated specifically to what exactly they wish to accomplish.

The ones who to infrequently and so much changes in between visits that the place seems new to them. The may or may not spend a lot of time planning. But their planning may involve more than the above guests as they familiarize themselves with what's new. But they may not do this.

The once in a lifers who don't want to miss anything. Level of planning correlates to their planning philosophy and overall personality. It will still vary by individual.


These groups can practically be applied to almost any destination. And planning can have as much to do with their familiarity or lack thereof as their personality. Are they are micro manager? Are they a free spirit? Are they an early riser? Are they a night owl.

I don't think it can be said that Disney, as a destination, inherently requires all this planning that exceeds a newbie's trip to Paris. For starters, if they speak English and no French, Disney would be easier. If they have never navigates a subway--navigating Disney by bus with easy point to point transportation and relatively easy transfers isn't going to require more knowledge than it would take to navigate the metro.

With Disney--you can still plan as much or as little as you like. But FP+ did nothing to complicate familiarity or lack thereof. If you weren't familiar before FP+--you would have still required more pre-planning of you wished to have that familiarity before arrival. That idea does not change with FP+.

FP+ didn't suddenly cause people to mix up DHS with Universal. They did that before.

FP+ didn't suddenly make the bus routing system hard to ride. That occurred before.

FP+ didn't suddenly make a first timer disoriented as to where each park is located. They were disoriented before.

And FP+ didn't make folks think that this was an extra-fee service. Legacy had that problem, too, but I cannot for the life of me understand why.

A first timer still has a lot of homework that is directly correlated to how much they want to know before they go and their personility.

But place a first timer who has never been to Disney or Paris, I posit that their planning style will still require a bit more intentional effort for Paris.

Back to Disney--I can go most of the year, no problem. But I have never been on Christmas Day or New Years. Comparatively, I would probably do more "planning/preparation" for that because I do hate crowds. It is new to me and I would hate to go and feel like I did nothing. But, I have never been to the Macy's da parade either even though I have been to NYC twice. I think that would require more pre-planning than a crowd 10 day at Disney.

 

[JimmyV]

You're picking people who know one thing and not another.

Of course I did. That was the point. It emphasizes how and why your ordering of Europe/Hawaii/Disney is entirely subjective and not the result of some organic process.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to say . It isn't for bragging purposes but only for perspective. Dh and I have travelled. Alot. We've been to many continents and have done extensive month long trips. We never use a travel agent no matter how complicated the itinerary, and we always travel independently ie: we don't do tours no matter the destination. I enjoy planning these trips.
When it takes more time to plan a 1 week Disney focused trip then it does to plan a month in Australia and the South Pacific then imho something is out of whack. When I can be more spontaneous on this kind of a trip then I can at Disney then for us I think Disney has gone too far.
When I plan a trip like I described above we will know where we're going to be at a given time and day, what things we might want to do ie: snorkelling on the barrier reef, sightseeing in a big city etc etc. We'll have flights and hotels booked, and cars rented. We wont decide in advance though what activities that we'll be doing on an hour by hour basis every day of the week. We wont choose all of our dining for every night of a months holiday (although we might book perhaps one particular hard to get reservation a week or 2 in advance).
We were at Disney under the new system for the first time in Oct. and for us there was no spontaneity whatsoever and we felt it and missed the old Disney.
I resented the amount of planning for so little return.
We decided to not do Disney this coming May when we'll be in Orlando and only do Universal. That went out the window when D newbie friends of ours were going to Orlando at the same time. So we decided to do just one or two days with them at Disney. Lo and behold we're already having issues in that we booked BOG and the dessert party and now need to change the day we'll be at MK. Of course it is impossible. Four months in advance. I got into Ferran Adrià 's El Bulli with less notice. And yes this isn't Fp reservations but dining , but when one adds FP+ to the mix, and we actually have to go through the same nonsense for rides it all seems silly to me.

I am not being snarky or invalidating your experience. I am genuinely curious.

How much time did you spend and what exactly you were planning?

Also, you mention having to change MK day which messes up BOG and Dessert party. Why is this a problem with Disney if you changed your personal plans?

How many people are trying to secure reservations at El Bulli?

It almost seems that the greatest issue that covers all variables--is volume of guests and available capacity for what one wants to do. But then I get back into my hang up with the semantics of planning versus trying to be ahead of the demand and it simply being a matter of coordinator earlier than one would like to. And unfortunately--those changes that seem far enough in advance to be an issue do become an actual issue. And that is disappointing when that happens.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

From an IT perspective, no - it's not a technical issue. I seem to recall a discussion about it long ago and someone from the food service industry pointing out that the further out reservations can be accommodated, the more conducive it is for management to budget/order/staff.

That makes sense. So lacking any logistical problem that makes it impossible to open the windows earlier--I would agree that matching the booking windows makes sense.

While there is flexibility of moving times around--if would be much more convenient that of the ride edges out the ADR in importance that ride is booked first and dining planned around that. Since we cannot request times for rides like we do ADRs, it is luck of the draw.

 

[JimmyV]

But I highlight your once on a lifetime comment. It is placing a parameter that was not the central focus of discussion. As happens often. So let's discuss that.

First, I take exception to your insinuation that my comments often miss the central focus of the discussion. But I'll move past that.

I think you put too much emphasis on the once-in-a-lifetime phenomenon. My point is equally valid even if one is talking about repeat visitors or habitual visitors. To flip it around, and use Fuzzy's examples, assume that Family A goes to Europe annually; Family B goes to Hawaii annually and Family C goes to WDW annually. In what order would you put their respective levels of planning? I submit, (and many others participating on this thread agree), that the habitual Disney guest still has more planning to do than the habitual Hawaii guest. Indeed, I don't think it is even close. Europe is a moving target, (and not just to Napoleon). If Family A visits a different country every year for 10 years, each trip is wrought with fresh planning. So they win the "labor" game. But if they take trips that repeat places or themes, then even their planning can be easier than WDW. A hotel or two. Five or six restaurant reservations. And some advance tickets to see the "big" attractions. (Louvre, Eiffel Tower, David, Vatican, Tower of London, what have you). All available on line. All available without odd deadlines. And all bookable without having to put a massive puzzle together. Intimidating to some who are not world travelers? Sure. But difficult? Not really.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I get your point, but the circumstances you describe are scalable. The point some of us make is if Disney can expect to see 10M visitors a year at DS, then they should have sufficient capacity at DS to accomodate that many guests, thus negating the need for additional guest planning.

It is also correct that FP/MDE is a large scale attempt by WDW to utilize as much latent park capacity as possible before investing in more.

What is DS?


For comparison--we went to Hershey Park just before 4th of July. I have no idea how many visitors they get annually--but I was surprised at how FEW people were there. I was wondering if a FOTL would be necessary as they do sell those passes. (Don't recall now it works but there were at least 2 kinds where the least expensive allowed only 1 FOTL per ride for a limited number of rides.)

Turns out--it wasn't needed! We had a great time--but when one can ride a roller coaster 3-4 times, it makes me wonder how on earth they make much money with the climate where they are located not allowing daily operation year round. So yay for us--but Disney just attracts more people.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You're right, it's definitely not the local zoo. But consider for a moment MCO airport and the Orlando infrastructure. Would you agree it's done a pretty good job of keeping up with the millions and growing of international visitors who arrive in that city each year?

More visitors equates to more revenue. Proper planning results in increased spending on resources to accommodate more visitors.

But yet, attractions in HS are being closed with nothing new being opened. That doesn't help capacity at all and puts increased planning pressure on guests.

And how did you get BOO'ed by GoofyinToronto??

Being closed to make room for new things.

I think MCO would have a much harder time to close an old terminal to make way for a new one. They See way more folks. Instead--it was a construction zone when they remodeled.

If an attraction is taking up a new space--you cannot keep operating it to build a new one. It isn't physically possible.

Growing pains for sure and an understandable reason to skip that park. For the infrequent visitor, it would be understandable to wait a few years.

In DC--there are a few things shut down for refurb. Natural History shut down an entire wing for several years.

When you have limited space and want something bigger and better to come, you don't have much of a choice to make room.

And I would assume you do know that things are coming to DHS.

 

[ArwenMarie]

Guilty as charged.
I'm weary of having people who can pop in any given weekend telling me I shouldn't worry about missing this or that attraction, or that I should be happy wandering around shopping and soaking up the atmosphere. For many in this category, they only have one day at DHS or Epcot in a year or for many, even longer. They don't have the luxury of compensating for tiering by coming back the next weekend.

I agree with the weariness. I think one unintended consequence of FP+ is that local APs seem to like it. I suspect it wasn't built with them in mind.

As far shopping and soaking up atmosphere, I can go into NYC (insert city here) and do that anytime I want without buying airfare to the swamps of Central Florida.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

First, I take exception to your insinuation that my comments often miss the central focus of the discussion. [/] But I'll move past that.

I think you put too much emphasis on the once-in-a-lifetime phenomenon. My point is equally valid even if one is talking about repeat visitors or habitual visitors. To flip it around, and use Fuzzy's examples, assume that Family A goes to Europe annually; Family B goes to Hawaii annually and Family C goes to WDW annually. In what order would you put their respective levels of planning? I submit, (and many others participating on this thread agree), that the habitual Disney guest still has more planning to do than the habitual Hawaii guest. Indeed, I don't think it is even close. Europe is a moving target, (and not just to Napoleon). If Family A visits a different country every year for 10 years, each trip is wrought with fresh planning. So they win the "labor" game. But if they take trips that repeat places or themes, then even their planning can be easier than WDW. A hotel or two. Five or six restaurant reservations. And some advance tickets to see the "big" attractions. (Louvre, Eiffel Tower, David, Vatican, Tower of London, what have you). All available on line. All available without odd deadlines. And all bookable without having to put a massive puzzle together. Intimidating to some who are not world travelers? Sure. But difficult? Not really.

Very sorry for he bolded--if often happens in these discussions generally--not by you specifically. I'm sorry for the misstatement that implied I was saying it specifically about you.

In your example--I still think an American planning an international vacation will still require more effort than planing a trip to several thousand acres just off of I-4.

Familiarity will always make things generally easier. So the first timer who has never left the US on an airplane is going to have to do a bit more.

No, it is not difficult. I never said it was "difficult". But since that is the adjective use to describe planning for Disney--a first timer going overseas will have more effort and thus make it more "difficult".

But on that same note--a regular visitor to Disney claiming "required" and "too difficult"? It doesn't have to be.